I agree w/ all of that but you didn't really name any bad bounces. Favre has been making ******ed throws his whole life, we owe our division title in 08 to a couple of them. Jason Allen got beaten badly on a back shoulder throw early in the game and the Favre tried to go after him with it a few more times, which is logical. However, Allen was in perfect position on those INTs, and he would've had 3 if not for Benny Sapp lining up n the friggin neutral zone. The only bad bounce Minny had in that game was the slant the bounced off of Harvin and ended up as a pick for Vontae at the 1. And Ricky returned the favor on that one with his unforced fumble at the 1 yd line when we were up 14-0 and in total control. Ronnie also fumbled deep in our own territory to give the Vikes another chance. The defense was lights out that day, plain and simple. I dont think you can reasonably say that bad bounces led to that win. The call in Green Bay was def a curious one, as was the 4th and 1 that Ronnie CLEARLY converted only to get a bad spot and a bad replay decision. The score was tied at the time of the punt call anyway so I'm not sure how you can say we'd have lost the game otherwise. We'd have been punting them deep into their own territory on a day where they struggled to move the ball most game. All QB throw bad balls and make mistakes so I'm not sure what your point is. You didn't even attempt to address my point, which is that having that a torrent of injuries and a severe drop off in talent (plus a hurt knee) is a much more plausible explanation for Henne's drop in production than some mystical storyline about how he forgot how to play football and "regressed" and went into some "downward spiral". More platitudes? C'mon man. Brady has been great in the regular season for two straight years and he got his *** handed to him in the playoffs for two straight years.The only games where where the offense was really bad were Chicago, Cleveland & at NY & NE. Those are good defenses who can stop the run w/ 7 and solid secondaries. If you think we can complete w/ them w the garbage we were putting out on the field offensively then you're dreaming. Watch what the Jets did to Brady in the playoffs. Watch what Cleveland did to Brady this year, watch what they did to Brees and Freeman this year also. Its like you see a Dolphins helmet and you assume there's an NFL player wearing it and last year that just wasn't the case. Mastrud, Curtis, Epps, Moore, Wallace, Shuler, Hartline out, Marshall less than 100%, Bess playing flanker, no running game to speak of, a decimated OL and you want Henne to just go out there and execute as if he has Pro-Bowl talent around him. It's just not realistic at all. And no one ever said Henne was a good QB . Glad we agree on something .
LOL I don't think you understood the post. I said that when Marshall got hurt Hartline became the number #1 WR. Marshall was primarily a split end for us so no, the Z was not the #1 guy on this team. Hartline was the starter, Bess was the 3rd guy into the game, the slot WR. Hartline played MORE SNAPS than Bess in EVERY GAME prior to his injury. I assume you're using some other data point(s) to number them though. Not that it changes anything, those were the top 3 guys and when Marshall got hurt Bess & Hartline or Hartline & Bess became 1-2 or 2-1 or whatever you want to call it. And again, neither of them are suited for those positions at the NFL level. Neither guy is a legit number 1. Moore, Wallace, Pruitt & Curtis are not legit #3-4-5 WRs, they're not even NFL players IMO. Epps, Mastrud, Shuler, are not legit #2 TE's. When Marshall came back he wasnt close to 100%, Bess was still #2, with the already listed scrubs filling out the WR/TE corps. We signed Curtis after the Cleveland game and had him in vs Buffalo the next week running deep patterns w/ Marshall as a decoy. Then we cut him. That should tell you a lot about what the coaches thought of our WR corps. And let's not forget, we never had a running game in the first place. You're seriously going to dismiss all of that as excuses? The draft should also have provided some clues to what the ills of the team were. Ireland spent much of the draft addressing everything that's listed above. Despite all the ranting about Henne and how we need to draft a QB, the guy making the decisions, w/ all the info, decided otherwise. He went after Pouncey to help shore up the OL. Then Thomas to add some life to the running game. Then Gates to add some speed at WR & Clay to give us a legit #2TE/H-Back. Those were the problems on this team last year. It wasn't that Chad Henne forgot how to play. Or maybe Ireland was duped the same way I was.
#1 WR refers to who the focal point of the passing game is, not a position on the field. It can be a flanker, a split end, a slot WR or even a TE. For Miami, Marshall was the split end primarily. When Marshall went down, Hartline was the number 1. When Hartline went down, Bess was #1. We're basically replacing an elite #1 w/ an average at best Hartline. We're replacing Hartline w/ Bess, which isn't a huge drop off IMO. But we're replacing Bess as #3 with Marlon "practice squad" Moore which is a HUGE drop off. Tell me, what route combinations would you run w/ the fearsome triumvirate of Hartline-Bess-Moore? IMO most people call that a lack of depth and a serious loss of talent, not an excuse.
To me GMJ, we reaped the inverse of the problems of "we need a #1 Wr!!" When we did get one the offense became less diverse and TBH, less dependable, Beast was a fine, but when you have a Camarillo the offense is more suited to go anywhere with the ball. INOW, we had 3 main targets, Bess did not play every down and Beast was doubled, where are you going with the ball? Add in the dropped passes and the Wr corps while talented was not as open to "any given Sunday" type of contributors. Marlon Moore had to many drops and Wallace was inconsistent as well as injured, that meant we had Bess and..Beast who was nicked with the Hammy. Add in no real threat at the #2 Te (though imho Shuler did fine when given the chance to show what he can do) the offense was down to: -2 ineffective running backs -1 slot Wr -1 Te -Beast Hartine started the season slowly picked it up, then went out in the Browns game, in 09 the O could have overcome that in 10 it just couldn't.
Normally I would agree that more snaps makes Hartline the #2 rather than #3 but the thing you're overlooking is the simple fact that Bess was targeted more than Hartline, before the injury. To me that makes him the #2. And you seem to be focusing waaay too much on Brandon Marshall missing two games. He missed two games. Yeah, it's too bad. Luckily one of them was against Oakland's terrible secondary. So I don't get your point. When Marshall came back he took more snaps than Bess and was targeted more than him too. You can sya "he wasn't close to 100%" but that's just an argument of convenience. One of those convenient little things you can say and it fits into your argument and nobody can "prove" you wrong, regardless of what evidence is shown. You know, evidence, like the fact Marshall had 80.3 yards per game a 0.5 TDs over that four game stretch after he came back, both figures being better than the 10 games he played prior to injury. You know, evidence, like the fact that Marshall's yards per pass snap (2.03) post-injury was better than pre-injury (1.93). As for what Ireland addressed, I get the distinct feeling that Jeff Ireland and Tony Sparano just know that usually a HC/GM tandem doesn't survive missing out on ONE high round quarterback, let alone two, and so they're doubling down on Chad Henne and giving him every weapon they possibly can because if they'd taken a QB in the Draft, by implication admitting they missed on both Pat White AND Chad Henne, their fates would have been sealed. They're the guy on the cliff hoping that a tuft of grass is strong enough to hold them up.
I see no response to the proof that Chad Henne's pre-snap protection reads were at the very least among the worst and most inefficient in the league, if not THE absolute worst. Note how I showed that it's not Dan Henning's offense that is the culprit there, because Chad Pennington was able to do it well within acceptable parameters but Chad Henne was not.
Eh, it's a flaw, what do you expect from a starting yr #2 Qb? My goodness, has it been that long since a young Qb played in Miami? Henne's problem in 2010 was his strengths did not outweigh his weaknesses, and it just takes time for an offense to come together unlike Defenses which can come together in one offseason. Which is why the key to improvement of the offense won't come from Henne this yr, more then likely that is to say, but from better talent at the running back snaps, the three back Cobbs/Williams/Brown were ineffective, but relied on heading into 2010 to retain their prior effectiveness and it just was not there. I'd almost say Dan Thomas is more important to us this season then Chad Henne.
IMO it all boiled down to this: We are a running team that could not run the ball. That put the pressure to move the ball on the passing game and we simply didn't have the tools to be successful that way, period. If you want to blame Henne for that, you can, he lacks "carry the offense" talent and I've never disputed that. What I take issue w/ is that Henne was the primary problem on offense, and that we need a new QB who is capable of getting the job done. If we want to be a passing team then yes, we need a better QB. But if we want to be the NY Jets, run the ball, play defense, w/ a game manager @ QB then Henne is plenty good enough to do that IMO. I'm over simplifying things, and I know it, but in a nutshell that's what happened from what I saw.
I think that is the most objective look at Henne that I've seen from you GMJ.. Also think Henne is more then a game manager but there are growing pains to reach that place with him and I'm not sure that he will find his game before he losses his best shot at being that Qb he is pushing 30 games into his starting career he has to start showing a bit more imo. And that is assuming they do not trade for someone.
Fair enough. All I will add is that Bess doesn't have a flanker skill set that compliments our offense, which is why he doesn't start IMO. He gets more targets b/c he is better at getting open vs nickel corners & LBs than Hartline is at getting open vs boundary corners and safeties. But I understand your point. You're right, I don't have any inside info on whether Marshall was 100% or not. I am assuming he wasn't healthy b/c of the nature of hamstring injuries in general. And the multiple times that I saw him favoring his hammy and/or quad after he returned from injury. And it's not just the Marshall injury, it's the domino effect that it caused and the injuries elsewhere on the offense. I'm not arguing that Henne is some Pro Bowl QB who was done in by injuries and bad play calling. All I'm saying is that there are logical reasons to expect a drop in production outside of the notion that Henne "regressed". He seems to be getting the lion's share of the blame & I think that there were other factors which were more damaging than what the QB did or didn't do, that's all. I don't think that Oakland's secondary was horrible, Walter Mcfadden excluded. I think the Raiders are a man-press team that ignored our difficulties in dealing with zone coverage and stuck w/ their bread and butter as opposed to copying what Belichek and the rest of the league had shown was an effective way to shut us down (Cover 2 zone). The Jets, Raiders & Packers were the only teams who used press-man type coverages vs us last year, and they all got lit up. I don't think that was a coincidence. You may be right, like you said earlier, there is no way that anyone can prove that you're wrong. It's a logical position to take, new regimes mean new QB's and outside of Jax, none of the tenured coaches/GM's took a QB early. Only time will tell whether they made the right choice, though I have to say I didnt see a single QB who was gonna walk into Miami and outperform Chad Henne. That's more an indictment of the QB class than an endorsement of Henne. But IMO it all goes back to the foundation of the team being a solid run game and a dominant defense. That's the blueprint, and it doesn't require a top notch QB. Once we get the run game and defense ironed out I'll be all for upgrading at the QB spot, I just don't agree w/ rolling the dice on ? mark QB's when we haven't even put the team's foundation (run game/defense) in place yet.
My goal for Chad Henne is for him to be Troy Aikman. Not a HOF QB per say, but look at Aikman's numbers: 61.5%, 7.0 YPA, 13.8 TD's & 11.8 INTs. Those are his career averages, and he has 3 rings and a bust in Canton. Why? He had a behemoth OL, a solid run game & some serious weapons at the skill spots. He didn't have to win games for the Cowboys, he just had to keep the engine running and be a facilitator. If you isolate Aikman's Super Bowl years (92-93-95) he was 66.0%, 7.6 YPA, 18 TDs & 9 INT's. That's what can happen when you run the ball and play defense. The Cowboys were not complicated at all. They had a dominant run game w/ Emmitt, an elite possession WR in Irvin, a credible deep threat in Harper, and solid TE/FBs in Johnston & Novachek. They also had a great defense w/ guys like Deion, Haley, Russel Maryland, Darren Woodson, Ken Norton, etc. My point is, you don't need an elite QB to win championships.
Not buying this "young quarterback being young" defense. It's just not accurate or appropriate. Fact of the matter is I've done the same study on other young quarterbacks like Mark Sanchez, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Josh Freeman and Sam Bradford. You know what I found? That none of them had even CLOSE to the same number of wasted blockers. Not. Even. Close. Let's tally these 5 "young" passers for a moment. They kept a total of 1911 "extra" blockers in on pass plays, versus 1350 "extra" rushers. That's 1.4 extra blockers for every extra rusher. Chad Henne's 3.5 extra blockers per extra rusher is not just off the pace...it's WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY off the pace.
Who thinks anyone is stretching a defense vertically with Hartline off the field, with Marshalls lack of speed and explosiveness after the injury?..me neither....Marshall and Bess were easy deep covers last, you take Hart out of that position, your up sh$# creek if you are a QB....When Hart went out, the checkdowns and the short passing game became more prevalent... I think Henne held on to the ball too long because our starters could not gain separation and were squeezed on the underneath stuff.
Heh, does not matter if it is bought into, or not the fact is we have no idea what Henne was coached or told to do, and if one notices those names all had functioning running games we did not. For all we know, Henning told Henne to go with so much max protect, or Sparano told him to use max protect just avoid the negative play. Which is one of the reasons why pure statistical views of players is not the be all end all of their performance especially at Qb, we do not know what they are told to do, I noticed you mentioned Pennington in 08 he was a 8 yr vet at that point it would make sense that they trusted him more to use max protect less. I'm not a large Henne fan, but I do think he has a lot of projection aimed at him both positively and negatively.
Aikman sucked in his first 2 seasons as the regular starter. In 1990, he had rookie Emmitt to run the ball, he had Irvin in his 3rd season, he had Novacek and Moose and still had a 66 QB Rating, which was a big improvement over his rookie numbers. Heck, if we had 25 yr Aikman now after his first two seasons, bad as they were, the number screaming "Bust! Replace him!" would probably by more than it is with Henne.
Good points, Pad. And actually, we led the league in pass protectors/pass play even in 2008 when Pennington was the QB. So it's a bit of a stretch to say that the max pro was on Henne and not on Henning b/c the OC is the only common denominator. Some people are just gonna bash Henne no matter what, I'm slowly learning to live w/ that.
LOLz if we had taken Matt Ryan fans'd be screaming "BUST!!! We could've had Flacco or Henne in the 2nd round, fire Ireland!!!"
[video=youtube;plBunH3d17Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plBunH3d17Q[/video] Reminds me of the Parcells quote about "ignore anyone outside of the building, they do not know what is going on in here" "This is not a game without mistakes" "Throwing the ball away is a good play, sack int's fumbles are bad plays" If looked at through that prism Henne being in max protect makes sense as the goal was not really for Henne to sling the ball around the field it was for him to avoid errors, which he still struggled at imho however it was yr #2 as a starter and crap does happen.
The question then is, Can Henne survive in an offense that doesn't max protect?.. can his skillset handle playoff tempo. Can he reset his mechanics and arm angles to avoid pressure and tipped balls.
Henne's need for so many protectors is likely tied into his lack of athleticism. When you've got a guy who can be chased down by defensive tackles and is poor at buying time when protection breaks down you'd see why someone would want a little extra in there for him. Or why he put them there because he knows he has trouble in those situations. If the team wants to maximize Henne's chances of success they had better hope he's working on his athleticism as well as throwing the football. This is where the lockout hurts because the team can't guide him in any way right now. So he may not be doing anything about his athleticism.
LOL That's always been my opinion, it's just that there are so many voices screaming that the guy sucks *** and/or is a bust that I end up defending him a lot. If people were talking about how great Henne was then I'd be singing a different tune. Both home games vs NYJ. vs NE & TB in 09, @ Tenn in 09, 4ht qtr & OT @ GB, etc. I think there are several examples of Henne executing well late in games. And I don't believe in the "clutch" arguments to begin with. Clutch IMO is one of those media driven, play the result, based topics. Same as in basketball w/ last second shots, the sample sizes are so small that it takes several years to get a statistically significant sample & even then the variables are typically vastly different.
I think the difference in opinion largely stems from a disagreement about whether it was "all on him" or not (not this game in particular but in general). I hate the fact that I have to keep defending Henne, but I think that at least half of all the complaints about his game can be directly attributed to the coordinator. I think Henne was in a horrible situation and that most any QB would have looked much worse than he is. I don't believe that even in a better situation that Henne is a franchise QB, but I do believe that in a better situation that the team could be as successful with Henne as the Giants, Jets and Falcons were with Eli, Sanchez and Ryan. I also don't believe there were reasonable options in the draft or will be in FA/trade that will give this team a better chance to reach that level of success.
He dealt with that crap without talkin sh%$ on anyone..came back after the benching and won 2games, including the one he was benched for...Dude showed some toughness, thats all Iam sayin..
Henne is often criticized for being overtly mechanical with regard to how he takes his coaching. He does whatever he's told, no matter how loony it is. People give him **** for it all the time. So why would we assume that the difference between Henne and Pennington in this regard wasn't at least partly a result of Henning coaching them different? Is it really that hard to assume that he coaches Pennington to approach protections one way and Henne to do it another? I just can't get behind the notion that Henning isn't also a variable in this equation... that he was coaching and calling the game exactly the same for the two guys.
If you remember the INT in OT, then you also remember the 24-6 deficit that preceded OT. What you seem to have forgotten is that it was Camarillo's personal foul penalty after the INT that put Tennessee into FG range. Minor details, I know. But if you're going to blame him for the INT then wouldn't it be objective to say he led a comeback from an 18 pt deficit, on the road, as well? So for every positive late game performance you post, I can counter with a negative, and then some. Cleveland? Henne played the last part of that game w/ Bess-Moore-Wallace as his WRs and no running game. The late pick was a freak occurrence that happens once per season, at most. I'll give him a pass there. We had 1 TD drive in the game, and watch how many times Henning tries to sabotage the drive w/ his idiotic WC plays, only to send Henne in to bail his *** out on 3rd and medium-long. Buffalo? Again w/ no running game, he was 33-45 (76%) 245 yds 1 TD 1 INT. We were down 10 late in the 4th & he leads us down for a TD, then leads us down into FG range only to have the OC go to WC and help ruin the drive. Then Carpenter missed the FG, his 4th miss of the game. I wont mention the very last "drive" b/c that was the DUMBEST play calling I've ever seen. Detroit? 29-44 (66%) 278 yds 1 TD 2 INTs. We're up 10 w/ the ball and 5 mins to go and we're driving into a 15-20 mph wind. Time to run the ball and kill the clock? No. Ronnie on 1st down for no gain. Shotgun on 2nd down, inc to Marshall. 3rd and 10 Henne hits Marshall for a first down. Now it's time to run it, right? Ronnie toss sweep for minus 6 yds. 2nd and 16? You guessed it, play action. Henne rolls right, shockingly, the DE doesn't bite on the fake and is in Henne's face immediately. Even more surprising, Shuler (only available receiver) doesn't get any separation. Throw away. 3rd and 16, draw play, Punt. What a great OC we have. I mean had. So we punt em down and play defense, we're still up 10 right? Nah, ST allows a 23 yd return and Detroit has it at midfield. Shaun Hill throws a 2yd pass to Jahvid Best who runs 51 yds untouched for a TD. If you're counting, that's 75 yards allowed in about 15 seconds bu our defense and ST. But Henne melted down, right? Still up 3 though, 4:30 to go. Time to run some clock? Nah. Ricky for -1 yds. 2nd & 11, play action, Incognito gets blown by the DT, who hammers Henne as he's trying to release, Inc. 3rd and 11, Henne looks for Shuler on a shallow cross, Henne leads him away from the underneath coverage, towards the sideline. Shuler stops his route. Pass goes wide, right to the CB who had fallen off of Bess to play the ball. Not sure if this one is on Henne or Shuler, but IMO its alot more of a miscommunication than a "melt down". Our ball again, own 20, 2:44 to go. Play action on 1st down, another rollout, again the DE is in Henne's face almost immediately. He tries to force it into Bess (and a 15-20 mph wind). Ball is tipped at the LOS, inc. Tie game 2+ minuted to go, team driving for the win and the crowd, what's left of it, is loudly booing the offense. Our fans suck, basically. 2nd and 10, we spread it out. Incognito gets beaten cleanly and the DT is in on Henne within 2 seconds, Henne ducks under him and scrambles for 2 yds. More booing. 3rd and 8, another spread look. Henne looks for Bess on a curl route. Bess slips, LB steps in for the INT. TD. KO Ret by Cobbs to the 35. Oops. Flag on Spitler, back it up to the 8 yd line. Henne back to pass, 2 DL on him within less than 3 seconds. He scrambles for 4, 2 min warning. 2nd and 6, DE on Henne in less than 2 seconds, he scrambles again for 1 yd. PF 15 yd facemask on Suh to get us some breathing room to the 25. Check down to Ronnie for 7. Short to Marshall for 5. Short to Marshall for 8. Short to Ronnie for 6. Too many short passes, need a play downfield says the announcers. Deep middle to Shuler for 16. Oops. Jerry PF 15 for chop blocking. Instead of 1st and 10 at the Det 31, its 1st and 25 @ the MIA 38 w/ :55 to go. Sooo, now it's time for a 2WR, 3RB, Dan Henning play action special! Quick pressure again, Henne checks to Williams for 13. Det holds Ricky and the bal down for a good 10 seconds, but it costs them 5 yds. Good deal for them. Henne, 5-5/ 42 yds on the drive. Shotgun, more quick pressure, Henne steps up, looking right, pass batted down. More Boos. 27 seconds left. More quick pressure, Henne stands in and hits Shuler for 18 down the middle. Timeout 19 seconds left, ball on the 29. Short left to Ronnie, who fails to get out of bounds. But he does manage to throw the ball PAST the referee, who has to run into the Lions bench area looking for it and by the times he resets it, GAME OVER. If that's a meltdown by Henne I'd like to hear how you figure...? I think inconsistency is to be expected from a young, developing QB. Especially when he doesn't have a running game to lean on and his OC is an idiot. He's had success late in games & he's had some tough endings as well. Not sure how anyone can make an arguement for him being great or terrible. He's been average, which is what he is, IMO.
I would think even the most ardent Henne basher would at least agree he is a high class, high character individual.
The responsibilities of other parts of the team and how it relates to the stats of the QB position...Too bad a post like this gets lost in translation because some folks aren't willing to go there.
Maybe because they didn't have to start from a complete rebuild 3 and a half years ago..Listen, all these comparison's to other QB's who are in completely different situations, its all nonsensical to me, whats important is to look at our own situation, take into account the variables and circumstances, and present that up against other QB's in their 2nd year starting, thats about all you can do..and if you do that, and you come away with that your ready to go to the next QB, than I disagree... Do you understand how many guys in the league can really make every single throw in this league, and do it with a velocity that is unchallenged. Your willing to throw away a lot of arm talent without ever seeing how it could work with a real balanced football team, that had a couple weapons..I'am not, ive seen enough where I want to bring weaknesses up to par with the rest of the team, and to see how it will all look.. I'd like to see any QB in their 2nd year try to make throws with receivers that have average to below average speed and who could only work in the bloodzone areas to outside the hashes...Its not a good thing, and can contribute to holding on to the ball too long.
Were on different planets as to how we evaluate the position, you take nothing into account but what you see live...Theres a lot more to evaluation than that..Its why coaches will not say much until they watch the tape, they do that to see who was responsible for what.. All other circumstances by arguably the greatest QB of all time are futile attempts in comparisons...I'am just worried about whether or not a 2nd year QB got a fair shot before he was benched..Imo, he wasn't, whether that reason was because their plan was to just wait until Penny got better, or Henne took the hit for the rest of his unit, both reasons are not fair to the player in terms of projecting his future.. You don't think I know that it takes more than arm strength.? Please...
QB's get the glory, and they also get the blame. A good QB can cover for weaknesses, can overcome mistakes, to still put W's on the board. Good QB play is the difference between the playoffs and the couch. Rodgers had as much offensive adversity as we did imo and he lead his team to a championship. That is the kind of thing a good QB brings to the table - they are the equalizer and the springboard. Henne ... is not that unfortunately. He can tread water, play just well enough to make some people believe. Sadly it just seems to be more of what we have been watching the past 10 or so years. At this point I don't think there is a single thing that could convince you otherwise, but to be frank a great many of us saw what we needed out of him and are just hoping for something better. I am far more interested in finding a good QB than being "fair" to Henne.
So because Peyton can make practice squad players into contributors, every other QB should be able to? Well, you can call it making excuses, but some would call it being more than just a superficial fan. Just remember, when teams win, the QB gets too much of the credit and when teams lose the QB gets too much of the blame.
With the Pats turnaround, you are talking the exception rather than the rule. Also those Pats teams had good running games and stout defenses. Brady, same as Peyton is an all time great. If you are going to wait for us to get another all time great, you could be in for a long wait.
The last 9 AFC champions have been QB'd by Manning, Roethlisberger, or Brady. So I don't think its superficial to recognize what type of player is needed at that position to make it to the SB.
