Did he study, or was he told that? Value is always imputed, and it would be a certain starter for certain starter trade. Yep, he is worth a #1 pick..to us, and they may have not drafted a Qb because they know they will have to trade for one so why draft one? Well, I have railed against Stat Monkeys, people who try and use Stats as a crutch to assert a player is better then they appear, however Stats are good for a couple of things: -head to head comparisons -trends By either measure, Henne loses to Orton and has for the last two yrs, add in Orton is 29 when the season begins, and he has a track record to be examined, such a trade makes far more sense, especially if it is draft picks only, if a starter has to be tossed in then by all means, toss one in if we are in a deep position.
Yep, not great or good enough to keep, just good enough to cross over! Lets see, just how many of that type have we gotten since 99? And God forbid any who take an Andy Reed QB and expect him to succeed elsewhere!
Ya I don't think Orton will be a cheap trade for anyone..The thing is--The Broncos might think Tebow is the QB of their future, but even they know he is far from a sure thing, and when you add in his injury-prone style of play, having a 2nd option like Orton is essential for them. Because of that, the asking price will be higher than just his pure value. I'm expecting Orton to spend another year in the Rockies..
I would trade Orton for Tyler Thigpen. Tyler Thigpen is the perfect back up for Tim Tebow as he can also run the spread offense.
Not to rehash this over and over , you have a different value to Orton than do I . As per Lombardi , he did a piece in the fall on NFL.COM about Orton. It was solely based on him doing a substantive , detailed and analytical review of Orton. His conclusion , and this is him doing it as an experienced NFL executive , was that Orton was putting up numbers during clean up time , catch up time , when the outcome of the game had already been decided . He is more than qualified to research that , this isn't him relaying fat Bill's spin , he scouted him and concluded he did not like all that much . Certainly raises flags for me when talk of number one picks , above average starters plus draft picks are being bandied about as the price needed to pay to acquire. No thanks for me unless it is a moderate price.
The Broncos were so bad that Orton was constantly playing catchup in 2010, did Lombardi mention it? And to do a complete review would mean to go back to 2005, watch every snap, all 2,000 or more, and then draw a conclusion. Which is dubious at best that Lombardi would engage in, which is yet another reason why I'd pay whatever to land Orton.
There is the problem . You feel convincingly different than a experienced NFL executive who , saw the difference when the game was close and when it wasn't re the ability , production and effectiveness of Orton. That you would pay WHATEVER it took also shows that you have a much higher opinion of orton than virtually everyone else. Whatever it took? really? Next years one plus oh your pick , their pick of Starks , Langford , Solaia , seeing as we have so much depth you want to trade from there and don't need fair compensation , you are telling us you would and want to do that for Kyle Orton.
Well, only a problem when viewed by someone else... An unemployed fmr Exec, there is a reason for that.. Yep, only modification would be if they want a player and a pick we should get two players such as: -Robert Ayers -Richard Quinn Along with Orton, a blocking Te and OLB depth.
Good. I don't want Kevin Kolb in aqua. I don't think that's the kind of competition I want for Chad Henne. You trade for him and you've basically said, he's the guy because of the price. Also, in our offense, I wonder what kind of "upgrade" the guy would really be. I'm all for making a move for Carson Palmer, no matter the price. You bring him in here and this team is instantly better, IMO. A 1st round pick for Orton? I love Orton, but not for that price. I'd rather bring in Vince Young, or one of the others to vie for the starting QB position along with Henne.
If that quaterback is marginal talent with a weak deep ball, only real success in a "system" dynamic in Denver then I would pass on giving much. He cant be far under 30 and he isnt much really period. I am still on board with Henne and if he blows then MORTGAGE THE FARM for Luck!! I would much rather bet big on a more likely situation in Luck then trust the FO to evaluate another QB and just bet a single pick in him. If Henne sucks and the RB and speed WR spots are filled through this yr draft, then QB would be our vastly missing link and betting big on as close to guaranteed, play ready prospect makes sense to me.
I personally wouldn't. For Kolb to have 7 TDs, 7 INTs, and a 76 QB rating in 5 starts in THAT offense last year is pretty unspectacular. And this forum complains about Henne last year? lol. Give Chad those 5 starts in Philly and I guarantee you he outperforms Kevin. Our only common opponent was Tennessee, and Kolb looked like crap throwing 2 INTs with a 56 QB rating in a 37-19 loss. And his last start of the year (14-13 loss to Dallas in week 17) when he was 18/36 for 162, 3 INTs, and a 37 Rating was more miserable than anything we saw from Chad in 2010!!! Of the games Kolb has had at least 10 pass attempts, he's had 7 pathetic games and 3 great ones (with Philly losing 6 of those 10 games thanks in much part to Kolb). It's a funny mystery to see our fans overlook Kevin's terrible games only to focus on his few good ones, yet we overlook Henne's good ones to focus on the bad. I still can't believe there are members who trash Henne (not you MB) and then beg for Kolb as a replacement who would've lost his starting job after week 1 vs GB if he hadn't suffered a concussion instead.
Your way off base on that one my friend. Besides the fact that Deberg was a Dolphin legend for helping us win the Snow bowl on Thanksgiving in Dallas (with a little help from Leon), he was a way better QB than Kyle Orton.
196 td's to 204 int's Career 57% completions Went 5 yrs from the snow bowl to playing in the NFL again..which is amazing, 5 yrs? Wow.
No way I do that trade. Just a 3rd straight across is the maximum I'd give. I guess if you want to make it conditional, such as if Orton plays over half the offensive snaps and the team also makes the playoffs, it becomes a 2nd, I could go for that.
Whether or not Langford is a FA after 2011 depends on the next CBA. Cosell never said what you quote him as saying. I honestly do not believe he analyzed him as much as DJ did either for that matter. There are 32 teams and years of film for him to look at, why would he focus much on the Henne of 2010? When he makes comments like Miami won 7 games in spite of Henne, it tells me he only gave a superficial opinion, not one arrived at from in depth study like some of our own forum members have done.
Culpepper was coming back from an ACL that he did not rehab Feeley had..5..total starts when we traded for him, sounds like, nah, couldn't be Kevin Kolb could it? Orton has 60 starts, you know pretty much what he can do in the NFL at a minimum, he also has improved each yr for the last 3.
Odrick plays..where? The plan was for Odie to play RDE and Starks move to NT, that fell apart yet there is Odrick.
Odrick has proven nothing yet. Before I would count on him to replace Langford or Starks, I'd want to see him at least get through one season healthy and see how he does.
Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. One season is reasonable and you know it is. 4? 6? That's just being silly.
If you are not basing your desire to trade for Orton on his numbers, then what are you basing it on? Did you go back and review a bunch of games from last season like DJ did for Henne?
I mentioned that stats are only useful for two things, trends and head to head comparisons. His trend is clearly upwards and head to head he easily beats Henne save for a slightly better completion percentage then Orton. Stat Monkey would speak about "on 2nd downs of less than 7 yds to go when blitzed by..."
Not when he had won the starting job in training camp, did that not happen? Players are fungible Mr C.
Head to head does not give an accurate comparison all by itself when 2 QBs played in different systems, surrounded by different talent and at different points in their careers. So, you would say the stat that says Henne was the best in the league at converting on 3rd and 7 or less, is a stat monkey stat?
So you want to base a player's long term ability to equitably replace a proven player, on one training camp?
That is what makes Orton more interesting to me, his turnaround began in Chicago, a completely different system then the one in Denver. I think it is of minor importance.
Yep, perfect is the enemy of the good Mr C, he was taken that highly for a reason and he won a job, at what point is that enough?
As for the bolded part...A good is fungible if one unit of the good is substantially equivalent to another unit of the same good of the same quality at the same time and place. So given that definition it is not always true that players are fungible and especially in the case of replacing Langford or Starks with Odrick. Odrick has not proven he is substantially equivalent at this time to either of the starters.
After he has held the job long enough to prove he can handle it. IMO, we need to see Odrick make it though one season without a serious injury, even as a backup, before I'm going to just decide he can step in for either of two talented and durable starters, and the defense not miss a beat.
And that is why perfect is the enemy of the good Mr C, by your timetable FA hits, gosh, adios KL, too bad really we could have had a starting Qb. In what reality is a good DE, worth a starting Qb? This is curious to me,.
They can also get better. I don't go along with your opinion that players are simply fungible, as if they were a commodity like OJ, Pork Bellies, wheat or whatever.
We do not know if Langford will be a UFA after 2011, until a new CBA is in place. Also, Henne vs Orton, it would not be a given that Orton does win the starting job.
Then why are draft choices so highly valued by most? "oh, don't trade a draft pick!" But you use them on players who in theory will help the team, what difference if the player is a Rook from OU, or a 6 yr vet from Chicago, at the end of it all they are supposed to help the team win games they are not some sacred treasure as a end, they are merely one more means. Having draft choices in and of themselves means not a damn thing..at all..
