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The Official 2011 Boston Red Sox Thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Ray Finkle, Nov 10, 2010.

  1. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Congrats.....your bats were more clutch, your gloves less sloppy, your arms got the outs faster before giving up runs sooner then we did.
     
  2. Skeet84

    Skeet84 New Member

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    I have no idea how the Red Sox just won that game!!! Great job To Adrian Gonzalez who keeps up his hot hitting with the game winning double. The Sox had some great hits late in the game. Down 6-0 we come back and win 8-7 nice!

    The Red Sox have to be beside themselves when it come to Dice K.

    Oh this will come to no shock to any Red Sox fans but 4 SB's and no one CS.
     
  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    A great game, just discovered my cable package includes MLB Network in HD, Gonzo bounced that ball right off of the wall for the "W".

    MLB network is a heck of a lot better then ESPN's coverage.
     
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  4. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Good win, but I'm starting to get very tired of Carl Crawford. His swing is ugly and the results have been even uglier (his AB in the 8th inning last night might have been the worst AB I've seen by any player in MLB this season. He missed an 89 MPH fastball in the middle of the plate by, at least, a foot) -- and we're not even taking into account how dreadful he's been in LF.

    If this clown can't handle Boston then ship him back to Tampa.
     
  5. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    It's about time we had some luck on our side. Gonzalez has simply been great for this team.

    As for Matsuzaka, he is what he is. He's either bad, really bad, horrible or lights out. It would have been a bad loss coming off of a 3 game sweep of the Yankees at YS but the offense bailed him out. I'm sure the front office has lost their patience with him and if they could they would ship him out of town.

    I think the Red Sox made the right move putting Lackey on the DL (whether he has an injury issue or just to clear his head) But as bad as he's been I trust him more than Wakefield.

    Really you want to ship him out after 159 at bats and what 2 misplayed balls? Come on the guy is going to hit eventually. Was he awful in April? Absolutely. Did he have a bad at bat in the 8th last night? Yes. But to say he can't handle Boston or that he's been dreadful in LF is going a tad bit overboard right now, no?
     
  6. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    I'm also starting to get tired of the SSS brigade running around in defense of the guy telling everyone 'its early.' Memorial day is in 2 weeks, its not 'early' anymore. His approach at the plate sucks - nothing more, nothing less - and that's not going to change, regardless of whether he starts hitting.

    As far as his defense, its not only the two misplayed balls that irk me, its the fact that you cannot name a single instance where the guy made an exceptional play defensively (or in other words, a play Manny wouldn't have made). And his arm?? It might be worse than Damon's.

    There's no chance this guy eventually earns his contract in Boston. None.
     
  7. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    So you're fine with giving up on a player after 159 at bats? And small sample sizes are valid. Do you really think Cleveland is going to be the best team record wise in baseball? Do you really think Matt Joyce or Darwin Barney are going to lead the league in hitting or even finish in the top 10 or 20? Hell we recently saw both Pedroia in 2007 and David Ortiz in 2009 look absolutely cooked during the first 2 months only to get hot and have good to solid seasons. This happens every year in baseball where a player/team is super hot/super cold for a few months and then turns back into the player/team that they truly are.

    As for his defense, no I can't remember a single play where he made an exceptional play defensively but what does that even mean? You're mad because he essentially hasn't made a web gem yet? Seriously? The guy is one of the best defensive OFers in baseball. do you truly think his defense is hurting the team? As for his arm, yeah it's not the strongest (it never was) but again comparing it to Damon's is silly.

    I will agree with you that he won't live up or earn his contract in Boston but that's because he's not the kind of player to put up Adrian Gonzalez numbers so to speak. I'm pretty sure I've gone on record saying he's overpaid. But I do think he's going to play well in Boston. And I'm not going to give up on him after 159 at bats. I think it's a compete overreaction on your part right now, let's give him more time before we call him a bust.
     
  8. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Simple Balt's pen is awful......

    But holy crap A-Gone is a MONSTER....I wish the Yankees could have literally gave up nothing, and got a caliber player back like him for less money than that other horseface playing first just a bit South...
     
  9. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    When did I say this? I said I'm tired of watching the suck that is Carl Crawford on a nightly basis.

    What the hell are you talking about here? We were told this guy was an elite defender - well, I'm still waiting to see that ability. Maybe Theo and Co. aren't as good as we might like to assume in evaluating defense?

    And I'm sorry, but comparing his arm to Damon is NOT silly. The idea that you're even debating this makes me question whether you've seen his throws from LF this season.

    Yup. $140+ million is alot of lettuce.
     
  10. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Well the Red Sox did give up some good prospects to get Gonzalez. I mean I'm sure any team would love to have Casey Kelly and Anthony Rizzo in their farm system right now. Especially Rizzo who's just destroying Triple A so far this year.
     
  11. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    You said 'If this clown can't handle Boston then ship him back to Tampa'. The quote is just overreaction based on 159 at bats.

    Pedroia (outside of the 1st Yankee series) and Youkilis (outside of the past few games) haven't done much of anything either this year yet, do you want to ship them out of a town too?

    You're complaining that he hasn't made an exceptional play defensively yet, what does that even mean? A diving catch? Robbing someone of a HR? I can't think of a wow or web gem moment he had yet either but does that mean he's not an elite fielder? I've seen a few exceptional defensive plays by Derek Jeter and Nate McLouth this year, does that mean anything?

    And the guy IS an elite defender, it's not just Theo Epstein that thinks that, just look at his defensive stats or read a scouting report on the guy.

    Just relax, there's plenty of baseball left to be played.
     
  12. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    At the time, they gave up nothing, and still gave up nothing, Rizzo was a throw-in who could be the best it turns out, and Casey Kelly has a career 4.50+ era in AA...they are prospects, A-Gone is and has been a top 5 talent at his position for years.....for you to say every team is a bit of an overstatement....Clay Bucholoz thats a different story...

    It was an amazing job by their FO.....I give them credit...my point is you have to throw it out there, and see if they like it...
     
  13. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    Or you're taking a snide remark entirely too seriously. Either one.

    Well, see above. But its also important to note that the two players you've referenced above have thrived in the fishbowl that is Boston. Carl Crawford has not, at least not yet.

    Is there not a well-documented history of players that have not been able to cope with the environment put forth in a baseball-crazed city?

    I'm complaining because the guy has been bad defensively, just like he has been at the plate. You continue to harp on this web gem sh*t, for god knows what reason.

    The entire reason I referenced an exceptional play to begin with was to illustrate to you that he hasn't even flashed that 'elite' fielding ability to this point. He's sucked, as he has in just about every other facet of the game.

    Agree to disagree on the arm. Its as bad as there is in baseball.
     
  14. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    yeah I see what your saying, but I think you give him a pass for the year, because he is in his prime, and the first time he has slumped like this....if he was some ahhhemmm 37-39 year old, then there is cause for concern.....

    it is very tough to play in Boston, and the wall, it usually takes somebody at least a year to fully get used to it.....
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yep, still not thrilled with the Hoyer and BoSox connection on that deal as he focused on them and made the deal without getting a single bat to replace him in the lineup, which still galls pads fans to this day.

    TBF though FY, cannot cry too hard for the Yankees, Tex turned down the BoSox solid offer to play there in favor of the Yankees offer, you got exactly what Steinbrenner's boys wanted.
     
  16. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

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    A free pass in this city? Making $20+ million? :lol:

    The vultures that are the media in this town, are already starting to circle the carcass. Just wait. If this slump prolongs another week or two, he's screwed.

    And those WEEI callers don't understand (or really care to) the meaning of SSS.
     
  17. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And the padres have been shut out 8 times already this season but thank goodness they have someone on Baseball America's top prospects list...
     
  18. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    I have always said if I never watch another championshiop again from them, can I really be that dissapointed? However I will not sit by mute when my team has not a clue....kinda like our beloved Phins...

    The offer was less than NY's, if it wasnt, he would be in Boston sucked it up.....and the Yankees wouldnt have made an offer for Gonzo thinking it would have taken everybody to get him lol.....

    Yeah I agree, Boston has been known too forgive easily though, if he has a bad regular season, and tears it up in the playoffs, all is forgiving...
     
  19. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    That's completely incorrent on Anthony Rizzo. He wasn't a throw in. If Rizzo wasn't included in the deal then there wouldn't be a deal. Eric Patterson, now he was the throw in.

    As for Casey Kelly, it's hard to judge any player in the minor leagues (or the major leagues) simply based on ERA as it doesn't tell the whole story. It doesn't tell you if the pitcher has just been unlucky or if the defense is letting him down etc.

    Bottom line is San Diego got 3 quality players back.

    Yeah Rizzo is only putting up a .376/.448/.723 in Triple A as a 21 year old. Seems like Rizzo has a pretty good shot at replacing Gonzalez in the Padres' line up for the next 7 years or so.

    You might be the only Padre fan I know that isn't excited about him.

    And the Padres were going to suck even WITH Adrian Gonzalez on their team this year. Good thing they didn't let him walk away for nothing. Seriously who cares how many times they've been shut out this year, they weren't going to be a good team anyway. At least they got 3 quality prospects back in the deal. And last time I checked each one of them have been playing pretty well so far in advance leagues for their ages.
     
  20. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I just think you're being way too negative about him based on small sample sizes. There's no defending how bad he's been so far this year, he's been awful, but I'm not willing to give up on the guy yet.
     
  21. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Patterson is not exactly adored in SD.


    Or..he sucks.

    Really? Bottom line is SD got 3 minor leaguers back.



    Yeah, cause prospects always translate to MLB.

    Not much choice in the matter, Hoyer made the deal.



    The problem with MLB in a nutshell, why would people come out to watch?

    As for who cares about how many times they have been shutout...winning is the goal here, not player development nor the rest of it, the goal is to win, SD wound up signing Hawpe who was hitting in the oh, .150 or so, for most of the first Qtr of the yr.

    Fortunately, the NLW is quite weak and even 5 games below .500 is only 4 games off of the lead or so, this with Latos not pitching well, there is still time to recover from giving away the lone all star player for a picture signed by Jim Rice, or was that Butch Hobson?
     
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  22. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    If it wasnt Rizzo, it would have been somebody else....that deal was getting done....
     
  23. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Always good to see someone say a player sucks when he doesn't know anything about that said player, seen him pitch in person or on TV and ignores scouting reports on him.

    While that is correct they did get minor leaguers back, all 3 of those players are quality prospects whether you want to believe that or not.

    That's obviously always a risk but San Diego wasn't going to get back any quality major league players back for 1 year of Gonzalez. That's not the way trades like that work.

    Trust me I would have loved to see you (or anyone else on these boards, myself included) in Hoyer's shoes trying to deal Gonzalez. It's not as easy a job as you may think it is.

    And WITH Adrian Gonzalez people still didn't come to watch. Maybe it has more to do with the fan base and location of the team. I mean Gonzalez was a local boy and he still couldn't help draw in fans.

    You still just don't get it. The Padres WITH Adrian Gonzalez weren't going to be good. He was leaving the team after the season, there was no way he was going to stay. The last GM did a poor job in terms of player development and drafting players. Baseball has changed big time in the past 5 to 6 years or so where now it's more important to build from within (see Tampa Bay, Colorado, Minnesota) by using the farm system. San Diego hasn't produced a single good offensive player since who? Exactly.

    And part of the problem in San Diego is that they can't afford to sign big time free agents (and thus have to sign guys like Cantu and Hawpe to 1 year deals) which is even more of a reason to build from the ground up. Just look at what Tampa Bay has been able to do against the big boys in the AL East or the success Minnesota has had or what San Francisco has done by building the team up via the farm system. Do you think they win the World Series without Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Jonathan Sanchez, Buster Posey, Bumgardner, Brian Wilson etc?

    Seriously as a Padre fan you should be happy you finally have a GM that understands what its going to take to be a good team in the long run. Hoyer gets it, no matter what you may think.

    Again that's completely false, if it were true Rizzo would still be in the Sox farm system. Rizzo was a key piece to the deal as much as Kelly was.
     
  24. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Oh, so ERA's drop when they hit MLB?


    Then just win while you can.



    Clearly hard to place employees in other teams front offices, kudos to the BoSox.



    More or less.



    Tampa's attendance is actually down this yr as well, which is hard to believe, could be people do not like watching other teams future stars.

    As for "were not going to be good" the same could have been said prior to the 2010 season, and yet...so to make life extra difficult trade away your one star, for minor leaguers then the team is sure to improve! That was the plot for Major League iirc? I know, how about a series of fines for good play just to make double sure?

    Come on out and see Red Sox future start Adrian Gonzalez!

    :lol:


    Let's see if they can keep them, and therein is the problem, people turnout to see "their" star or hero or what have you, when you know they will be gone due to MLB's business as usual, why bother? That "build from the ground up" continues with "and trade them off once they are any good".

    Watch, Cam Maybin will have a great yr and it will be said "they had better trade him, they cannot afford to keep him".

    Long run means "will not ever win WS"? And that is something to be happy about?



    Basically, baseball now has MLB minor league teams that get to rent players who then migrate to other teams.

    Other problem is the new stadium was sold to the public as allowing the Padres to keep FA's, nothing could be further from the truth, so most of San Diego believes they were jobbed by the franchise, and they'd be correct.

    But hey, Hoyer has "promised" fans he will up the payroll to..45 million!

    Or Arod and Jeter money, for an entire team.
     
  25. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    He was a 20 year old in AA. He's already doing way better.
     
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  26. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    You have to have the right sprinkle of free agents and farm guys....take like Minnesota for instance (who have been the doormat of the ALDS), I didnt realize they are good Fink, but hey....they never spend a dollar in free agency and if they did get that one superstar would be in a much better position to win, especially pitching wise...

    and thats crap about Rizzo, and Kelly, I dont care what the Boston media is/was saying.......either or and Buch would have got it done, actually SD should have insisted on Buch, it is warranted in this situation.....Hoyer balked on it...
     
  27. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    So was Phil Hughes, and Joba Chamberlain....
     
  28. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I don't understand your points?
     
  29. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Since when is ERA the best indicator of pitcher performance? If you're just going on ERA then you lost the debate before it started.

    And when exactly were the Padres winning with the current players on their roster (again including Adrian Gonzalez)?

    You just don't seem to realize the Padres aren't a good baseball team, again even with Gonzalez in the line up. They had 1 superstar in Gonzalez, 1 very good SP and 1 good closer. That's it, the rest of the players were average at best. On pure talent level the Padres would be last or 2nd to last (Arizona is pretty weak as well).

    Right, again such a silly statement. Yeah Jed Hoyer is going to get a dream job that's limited to only 30 people in the world but risk it all as a favor to the Red Sox. Do you realize how stupid that statement sounds? You know how many people would kill to get that job?

    Attendance is down because their Dome Stadium is not only horrible, probably worst in the majors, but it's also in a bad location that's hard to get to.

    Their TV ratings however are way up, and have been increasing each year since 2007 which is how their getting a lot of their revenue from.

    But look what's happening in Kansas City, some of their major talent from the minors is starting to come up to the big leagues and people are coming to see them. I believe Kansas City sold an extra what 5 or 6 thousand tickets to see Eric Hosmer's first game.

    Again the 2010 Padres were a fluke based on the level of talent with the team. To even think that those guys, besides Gonzalez, Latos and Heath Bell, could produce like they did would be silly. Which is why Hoyer and Co. decided to move Gonzalez in the offseason instead of during the season. The Padres being a winning team for much of 2010 actually hurt the franchise in the long run since they couldn't trade some of their players. Getting Gonzalez for a year and a half would have netted them a package similiar of what Texas got for Mark Teixeira. How did that work out for Texas so far?

    You keep harping on the fact that the Padres should have kept Gonzalez but he was leaving after the year anyway. If he was never traded and stayed on the team and they failed to make the playoffs and Gonzalez left the team empty handed then what would you be complaining about? Probably how they got nothing in return for him.

    And this is coming from someone who wanted major league players in the Adrian Gonzalez deal, who would be off the team quicker due to service time and money than prospects would.

    The key is that once the good prospects come up, the team locks them up long term like what Tampa Bay did with Evan Longoria or Arizona did with Justin Upton. That's how small market teams are able to keep their good young players a few years longer (by buying out a few years of free agency) and hopefully keep them during their peak years.

    The Padres haven't been close to a World Series title since 2006 when they made the playoffs. Clearly the franchise needed to a make over because the way things were going wasn't working. You should be happy changes are being made instead of getting the same old same old.

    Tampa Bay completely changed their strategy and only made the playoffs 2 out of the last 3 years and winning the East in those years over New York and Boston. If San Diego followed that same strategy imagine how good they could be in a weaker division in a weaker league.

    That's on ownership not on Hoyer. Two seperate issues. Hoyer can only work within the restrictions/guidelines he's being given.
     
  30. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Minnesota has been in the playoffs how many times since 2000? What they do in terms of drafting, trades and signing FAs with little payroll flexibility is simply amazing. The fact that they haven't won much in the playoffs is moot as the playoffs are a complete crapshoot. Teams would kill to be in the playoffs as much as the Twins have been in the past decade. This year they're not doing well but that's more to do with injuries than anything else right now.

    And again your views on Rizzo, Kelly and Buchholz are 100% false. San Diego NEVER asked for Clay Buchholz, nor would it have made any sense if they did as he would have been a free agent within 3 years and would have started to get expensive. They wanted young talent that they could control both in terms of cost and years.

    And both Casey Kelly and Anthony Rizzo are legit prospects. Just pick up a copy of Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus or read Keith Law at ESPN. Both players have been pushed agressively through the minor leagues and are some of the youngest players at their respective levels. They're not some C level guys here.

    Phil Hughes was a very good starting pitcher last year and was a very good reliever in 2009. Because he's hurt this year doesn't change that. Joba Chamberlain was one of the best pitching prospects in baseball before the Yankees screwed with him. Without either pitcher the Yankees don't win the WS in 2009 nor would they make the playoffs in 2010. Like Mainge, I'm not sure I understand your points on him either.
     
  31. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    So why not insist on Buch who was hands down the much better prospect over Kelly, who actually went to the show and did well even if it was for a shortime (and as it turns out still is),then in 3 years when they couldnt control him in terms of cost or control, flip him for undoubtly even better prospects than what Kelly could even turn out to be? All I am saying is 1 monster MLB player should net back 2 of your best prospects....the Sox didnt do that, therefore they win that deal....again I am sticking up for them, I think they did a marvelous job in that trade....Hoyer got jobbed....a guy like Gonzo doesnt come around everyday....

    as far as the point I was making to Mainge was, he said how Rizzo is a 20 yr old doing better, all I was saying was at one point so where they.....and now you literally dont know what you have in either....that is how quick a prospect can change, especially a pitcher...

    yes in 09 they played a part in the WS, especially Hughes, but CC and AJ were the real reasons they won come on now, Matsui, and Damon as well.....
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Of course.


    We won 90 games in 2010 and were in the race until the last few days of the season, seems rather simple.

    See above.



    Favor? Thought it was paycheck? Besides "baseball people" will chorus sing "oh, it was a smarrrrt movveee".



    My goodness, this avoidance of the obvious is simply amazing, the Rays quite simply cannot play any better then they have been and they literally are going Expos right before our eyes.

    not the luxury cap fund?

    And the Indians? They made the same "smart baseball moves" that you advocate and have smaller crowds then some minor league parks even with playing amazingly well in a town dying for a winner, losing the Sabathia's and Lee's and what have you had no effect?





    Aside from the bankruptcy?

    Gosh, then I'd guess we would have Brad Hawpe at first base..oh wait.. we do.



    Indeed, the point is to win, not to make Baseball America's "top prospects" list.

    Tampa? Really? Perhaps they should buy card board cut outs of fans to put into the stands? Twins paid Morenau or Mauer how much?

    The "hopefully keep them during their peak years" is a the fallacy.

    '
    Especially since they gave away our only all star positional player, and isn't the first step to making a WS actually, you know, making the playoffs? We were close in 2010 and regressed with the move.

    Who knows? When you trade MLB players for prospects, especially your best player, you are not moving any closer to the goal posts for awhile.



    That is the economics of MLB this is the system they designed and it is performing up to expectations.

    Still enjoy MLB, think the way they do business means there are to many haves and have nots, there is no competitive balance.
     
  33. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well as a SD fan, albeit with the west coast am more of a Braves fan, have to say for as addled minded as that trade was, Bud Black is an excellent manager who is recycling pitchers who MLB collectively thought were "done" like Garland last yr and Harang this yr.

    Cam Maybin was also a nice acquisition, so Hoyer has not been overall a good GM, still agree though, a All Star first basemen for purely prospects and no MLBers..that is not a good deal at all.
     
  34. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    wait what? the playoffs are a crapshoot? lol.....a best of series is a crapshoot Fink?? something you must have read in Baseball Pro, or by Keith Law...

    I love how the teams you point out as doing everything right havent won anything....after all it is all about getting the ring right? I contend if TB or Minny gets that big money all star, with some of the entitlement money they get from the other clubs, like a A-Gone or Lee that puts them over the edge.....
     
  35. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    I am just referring to that trade, hell Cashman has even done okay with the scallywags he got as filler in the offseason....IMO he gave Gonzo away...
     
  36. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Because a team that is rebuilding having player control in both cost and years are huge for them. So having prospects for 7 years at the major league minimum for 3 of those years is huge for that team. Buchholz would only be under control for 3 years and would start to hit the arbitration process and get expensive.

    And you can't assume you'd be able to flip Buchholz for better prospects. What if he gets hurt or doesn't pitch well, it would kill his trade value.

    And Boston's best prospects were Kelly and Rizzo. Not sure how or why you'd say they weren't.
     
  37. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    A short series of 5 or 7 games is absolutely a crap shoot. The best teams don't always win those series. Which is why the Yankees haven't won the World Series every year since 2000, when they have been pretty much if not then best but top 3 in all of those years.
     
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  38. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Eh, think "smart baseball" people knew he would never go into the season with Agone on the roster and that eroded his leverage.

    IMO smart baseball people are not very smart in terms of what fans expect from a team, to engrossed in sabrmetrics.

    Sooner or later you have to play with the guys you got, not the ones you wished you still had.
     
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  39. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    inching to 100k posts
    It is more important to have prospects in BBA and be well thought of in the industry apparently FY.

    "yeah we could make the playoffs but it is better if we have prospects"

    SMH
     
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  40. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Padre, I was going to respond to you again but frankly I just don't care anymore. We had the same dicussions back in December. You just don't get/understand how MLB front offices work now. Things have changed since 2000 with Oakland and Billy Beane and smarter teams aren't run like they used to. Tampa Bay, Minnesota are perfect examples of small market teams that can be successful by building from the ground up. Again Kevin Towers did an awful job with the farm system and when he left, he left Jed Hoyer with nothing to work with both in terms of the talent at the big league level and in the farm system. Tampa Bay, for example, showed that if you rebuild from the ground up you could compete with and beat those big market, big payroll teams. Most of the smaller market teams, like San Diego, have started to follow that process. That's fine if you don't like the Gonzalez trade but it's hard to argue with the logic behind it, at least Hoyer is trying to change the franchise around.
     

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