Comparing Henne to this drafts QBs (with videos)

I didn't say he didn't have an effect. I'm sure he did wonders........... for the Oline he coached.

Are you referring to the OLD backup Drew Bledsoe who was a backup in his retiring year? Yeah, I can see him having a problem. It happens to all of us when we get old.

Thank you??

I'm not sure why you're making my point for me. But hey, if you wanna tell me the 2006 Cowboys offense (with TO, Glenn, Witten, and a QB by committee of Romo & retiring Bledsoe) were more explosive and put up more points than the Cowboy's HOF QB Troy Aikman & HOF RB Emmitt Smith, then I guess I wont argue with you.

You mean with 2x All-Pro Dallas Clark, All-Pro Freddie Solomon (whom I believe Rice was drafted to replace), 3x ProBowl TE Russ Francis, ProBowl RB Wendell Tyler, and 4x All-Pro Roger Craig, one of if not the best receiving RB in the history of modern football who led the team in receiving 2 years in a row? I'm not downplaying the importance of QB in the least; however, I am saying that even the great ones need talent (and the appropriate talent for their skill set) around them for them to actually become great and produce.

You know when Montana had his best year? I'll tell ya. It was during his 89 SB year when Rice, John Taylor, and Roger Craig, were all ALL-PROs...... with 4x ProBowl TE, Brent Jones, and one of the more unheralded FBs in the game, Tom Rathman. That year Montana had his career best performances in: 112 QB rating (20 pts higher than his career avg), 70% completions (7% higher than his career average), 9.1 avg (1.6 higher than his career avg), 26 TDs to 8 INTs (his best TD-INT ratio of his career), and 270 yards per game (60 higher than his career avg).

You do realize that during the 19-1 season you referenced, the 49ers had the #1 scoring defense in the NFL that allowed only 14.2 ppg, right?
And that same team was the #3 rushing team (153 ypg), #2 rushing TDs (21), and #2 in rushing average (4.6)?
And that same team also had 25 INTs (which would be good for #1 in 2010) while allowing QBs a 65 passer rating?
You realize that their ground game scored almost as many TDs as their defense allowed right (21 vs 24).

........And that during their 82 SB season they had the #2 scoring defense in the NFL, 27 INTs (including 4 pick 6's), and allowed a 60 QB rating?

A lot of QBs could've been successful when only needing to score 15 ppg with a group of ProBowl skill-position players around him (talking to you especially, Stringer Bell). just sayin.

Good point. He would've needed the right talent around him for that to happen. It's not like the potential wasn't there. Thank you again??

 

that's meaningless. That's not taking into account Lloyd Carr who was fired after Henne's senior season. Any Michigan fans here care to jump in and elaborate further?
How did Henne do at the end of the year AFTER he had time to rest his ankle, knee, and shoulder?.... you know- the game against the SEC when he was actually allowed to open up the offense?

How did Mallett do at the Senior Bowl against top competition?

 

Great points....... it's obvious that something changed from then to now. I doubt he changed himself; I mean, why would he?. But then again, like yourself, I wont act like I know the real reasoning. However, it's a little suspect that things seem to dull down after joining a team run by a conservative HC with Dan Henning and David Lee.

 

Thanks for adding good stuff to the debate, Jaj.
I understand where you're coming from with your post, but that's not actually the case. I don't underestimate the QB position in the slightest. I know the impact great ones can have. What I'm emphasizing is the belief that others are overestimating what a QB can do when he doesn't have the proper tools to succeed, and consequently underestimating how important a surrounding cast is to a QBs success no matter how elite the QB is. I also believe that others are overestimating the potential of this draft's QBs to upgrade Henne. And I also believe that fans are underestimating just how difficult it is for a young QB to develop and become successful when an offense is full of problems (including coaching). I compare this offseason to a fan wanting to buy a new car just because their current one shut down in the middle of the highway. Just b/c the car isn't working, the fan thinks it's a POS lemon..... when in reality he overlooked the fact that didn't fill up the gas. Maybe we should be worried about filling our offense with gas (a ground game, skill player depth, improved Oline) before exclusively blaming the QB play for us stalling.


I made the previous list of great QBs and their WRs to show that great QBs need appropriate talent around them to succeed. All the guys on that list had HOFers and ProBowlers as receiving targets..... and most of them had more than one. My point is, we should stop trying to kick our talented young QB to the curb and start trying to put him in a position to succeed like nearly all the past great QBs were afforded. Ponder & Mallett would've had their brains beaten in last year in our offense. Mallett would've had no playaction to work off of b/c there was no ground game, and he wouldn't have had the speed and downfield playmakers he had at Arkansas. Ponder (a guy with a history of breaking down in critical situations, staring down receivers, and not always feeling pressure) would've been a pick machine here when not running for his life. Heck, he's probably on IR with his 4th shoulder problem. Mallett probably had a better offense at Arkansas than he would've had in our 2010 offense the way it played out. Gheesh, look how horrible Thigpen appeared in it. (and IMO Ponder's ceiling is Thiggy).

One first round pick is a lot. In a division with NE & NY, it can set us back a few years. I'd be prioritizing QB if our team was poor all around, but it's not. We have the potential of an elite defense. Those win SBs, too. I'll put an elite 11 man defense against an elite QB and trust those odds. What did the Jets do to Brady & Manning? Who was the winning QB that emerged from those games? It wasn't the HOFers. It was the young, inexperienced, inconsistent Mark Sanchez.

We should be focusing on helping our defense right now because DEFENSE is our best chance for success. It makes no sense to veer away from that in order to attempt to develop another QB who may never be. HELP THE DEFENSE. Get the ground game going so they can get some rest. Get the ground game going on 1st & 2nd down so that the BEST QB IN THE NFL at converting manageable 3rd downs, CHAD HENNE, can come in, move the chains, and continue to eat the clock.

No QB in this draft class is making our offense better in 2011. If the Jets can make 2 straight AFC Championship games with Sanchez, a great rushing attack, outstanding defense, and solid special teams, then so can we with Henne, while using the draft to improve the offense around him. REGARDLESS, the offense needs to be upgraded outside of the QB position. We should be addressing that first so that: 1. we have the best opportunity to see what Chad's really worth. 2. the offense is already established so that a 2012 rookie would enter with the best chance to succeed.

 

Fans thought Marshall was the missing piece...... when we still had Camarillo, Ginn, and a solid ground game. It doesnt really work when you replace those guys with crap and then expect Marshall to do it all (in double coverage for most of the year) without players to give him space to do what he does best. Brandon isnt the reason we were worse, but nice try.

How many times do I need to re-post that long list of HOF QBs who ALL had HOF and/or All Pro weapons to throw to (and coincidentally won SBs with)? Honestly, how many times? Copy and paste makes it pretty easy.

 

how about bringing in a vet to compete who can actually contribute in 2011 should Henne have problems...... and then trade our entire 2012 draft (if needed) for Andrew Luck after our 2011 offseason solidifies our offense while the defense needs little help? Anyone here rather have a guy from this draft than Luck? Just throwing it out there.

I think a lot of people are so desperate for an elite QB that they're seeing mirages right now with this crop of QBs.

 

Great post, and welcome to the forum. Excellent point about Rex and his charismatic support for a QB whom some Jet fans have said they'd trade for Henne.

 

So what you're saying is it wasn't his team. lol.

If you're next gonna tell me that Tony could call the plays however he wanted without any influence from Phillips or the man signing the checks, then I'll have to disagree with you. Jones like fireworks, and if JJ wants fireworks, then that's what JJ expects.

 

do you think Lex becomes the fullback then?

any other draft I'd probably be against a LG, but this year I think it's more important to see a guaranteed improvement on offense...... And immediately. Plus Alen made an excellent point about how difficult it is to find a great pulling guard. Henne would have better protection while the ground game is improved by adding Pouncey. It's bot flashy but I'll take it.

 

I don't know. Put him in that Raiders offense or properly build one around him and I'll tell you.

 

Boldin was a big part of that offense. You can't throw out the wr doesn't matter argument when a probowl receiver is no longer with the team.

 

I wouldn't put it past him after saying Andy Dalton should go #8 to the Titans.

 

if the staff actually showed faith in him rather than treating him like a step child since the drafted him, then maybe his teammates would be a little more supportive of a young, developing QB being asked to carry a darn team because the rest of the team cant do it as a team.

how smart did he play during his final four games with us where he was 0-4 and performed worse during that stretch than anything Henne has done? It's hard for Henne to take the bull by the horns with a team constantly looking to the old guy on the team who's been around the block a few times..... and it's hard for a team to take Henne seriously when they see him being neutered by their coach every day with an OC who never changed the playbook to suit his needs and skill set.

if that were the case, Indy wouldn't have used 1st round pick after 1st round pick on skill players for Peyton. They would've drafted defensively instead. He might've made them look better, but they certainly did NOT make him look better when he was 1-4 with 13 INTs and a QB rating around 73.

I thought the key was helping the guy running the show to look better and succeed? I don't understand you sometimes. You don't like WRs yet you prioritize a QB making them look good even if it makes the QB look bad in the process.

Give me a break about this plug and play stuff. Who cares if they don't have 1st round guys on the roster; they have immense talent around them.

If you want to use this silly "these teams don't 'actually' have talent at the WR position b/c they didn't spend a 1st round pick on the position; they only seem to have talent because the QBs make them look good", then I'll use the same argument. Brady sucks. He's not even a 1st rounder; he's a 6th rounder, and the only reason he looks good is b/c of the personnel and coaching around him.

And by the way, Manning's top pass catching duo the past 4 years are FIRST ROUNDERS (Wayne & Clark). Before that it was Harrison- FIRST ROUNDER. Anthony Gonzalez- FIRST ROUNDER. Joseph Addai- FIRST ROUNDER. Donald Brown- FIRST ROUNDER.

Rodgers: Greg Jennings- 2ND round pick and has tremendous talent; don't insult the guy. Jordy Nelson- 2ND round pick. Driver is the Packer's ALL-TIME leading receiver; don't insult him either. James Jones was a 3rd round pick.

Brees: Robert Meachem- FIRST ROUNDER. Reggie Bush- FIRST ROUNDER. Jeremy Shockey- FIRST ROUNDER. Devery Henderson- 2ND rounder. Marques Colston is a STUD plain and simple (since his production is because of Brees, then you wouldn't have a problem putting a wager on him not garnering a $20+ mill contract would you?)

Roethlisberger: Ben is so good that the anticipation of his arrival caused Hines Ward to earn 2 straight ProBowl honors ahead of time. I'm sure Hines had nothing to do with himself earning MVP during Ben's first SB. Heath Miller (ProBowl TE)- FIRST ROUNDER. Santonio Holmes (another accidental SB MVP who made Ben look good)- FIRST ROUNDER. Rashard Mendenhall- FIRST ROUNDER. Mike Wallace- one of the most DANGEROUS receivers in the NFL. What's Ben's excuse for not doing anything with 2ND ROUNDER, Limas Sweed?

Rivers: give me a break already! He's had massive talent around him. Vincent Jackson is one of the most dominating receivers in the game! Antonio Gates is the BEST RECEIVING TE IN THE GAME. Floyd is a huge vertical target who allows Rivers to play great in that offense. LaDanian Tomlinson-FIRST ROUNDER, one of best RBs in history of the game. Ryan Matthews- FIRST ROUNDER. SD brings in big guys who can make plays downfield


How good was Drew Brees before SD had any real talent at WR & TE?
Let's see:
2002- 76 QB Rating, 17 TDs, 16 INTs, 6.2 avg, 60%. (32 year old Curtis Conway, Tim Dwight, Reche Caldwell, Stephen Alexander TE).
2003- 67 QB Rating, 11 TDs, 16 INTs, 5.9 avg, 57%. (David Boston was his best receiver, 2nd year Eric Parker was his 2nd best, and Justin Peele at TE).

***Why didn't this average group perform lights out with Brees? Brees should've been a ProBowler no matter who was catching passes, right?


2004- 104 QB Rating, 27 TDs, 7 INTs, 7.9 avg, 65%.
2005- 89 QB Rating, 24 TDs, 15 INTs, 7.2 avg, 65%.

**In 2004 & 05: Gates emerged as an ELITE TE, 2003 ProBowler- Keenan McCardell was added, and Eric Parker was a much improved 3rd year player). The talent around Brees allowed him to blossom. He didn't have to dump off 179 passes like he did in 02 & 03 (and people think Henne checked down )

So your entire group of receivers, TEs, and backs only touch the ball via the air only 5 times a game?.... or are you saying that elite receivers touch the ball 5 times per game and don't impact as such? I'll have to disagree on both accounts, and regarding the 2nd one---- since when does a guy who contributes 1200 yards, 10 TDs, a few game winning catches, and draws coverage for other guys to make plays have less of an impact than a running back who contributes 1200 yards, 10 TDs, and maybe no game winning runs?