Brian Hartline

The great CK has spoken, LMAO. Chad Henne has weaknesses in his game, I think we've established that. This thread is about BRIAN HARTLINE, someone took the time to start a thread so that we discuss #82, so why focus on the QB? Your knowledge of football is underwhelming, you have trouble staying on topic, and then you say others are trolling? C'mon man.

 

If you want an honest opinion of Brian Hartline, watch the DB's who defend him. How big of a cushion do they give? How long do they stay in their back pedal? Do they squat on Hartline's routes, and if so, how deep? Do they have safety help? How close does he get to DB before they flip their hips and run? That'll tell you all you need to know IMO.

 

As many times as people have posted that Henning had the worst offense in the league many times, I have no idea how he can even make that statement anyway.

 

Do I really have to do some homework or can I continue believing he's a mediocre #2 w/o going back to the tape? lol.

Does a CB not having great respect for a WR mean that it's possible the WR sneaks behind him from time to time b/c of it? I thought Joe Haden referenced something of the sort------ that Joe had a lapse in coverage letting Brian get behind him....... and after that he bore down on Hart, and Brian was blanketed the rest of the game.

 

Ok...... I went to Youtube to check out his highlights to see this "coverage thing". Uhhhh, what do I do if there isn't a highlight film to go by?

 

https://gamerewind.nfl.com/nflgr/secure/loginform

Sure comes in handy, especially during the summer after the NBA & NHL seasons end.

 

I'm not convinced that looking at how a corner plays a wideout is an accurate determiner of the wideout's explosiveness.

I would suggest a quarterback's ability and tendencies would have an impact as well. Consider this...when a quarterback has a well deserved and well understood reputation for both a reluctance and an inability to throw an accurate ball down the field...that is going to have an impact.

Also, let's be honest...Hartline got over top of the defense last year significantly more than any player in recent memory for the Miami Dolphins. He did it just about every other game. Is he doing that because he runs a 4.3? No. He does it through good route running and sneaky athletic ability and acceleration.

I thought he was much improved from year one to year two. You could see the extra good weight he gained made him stronger, faster and quicker. I expect even further improvement in year three as his technique and football IQ continue to improve.

I think people are concerned too much about the forty times and not enough on the amount of big plays he both makes and could make (again, not to beat a dead horse, if Henne seized the opportunities Hartline created).

 

I wouldn't be concerned about 40 time at #2 WR if our slot WR didn't run 7.2, Brandon didn't run a 4.55, and Fasano didn't run a 4.8. Hartline is the odd man out in the equation b/c he's the least important of the 4 IMO, so if we're going to add speed somewhere to the starters, it's at Hartline's position.

If Brandon Marshall were instead Calvin Johnson, then Hartline could run a 4.5 all day long and it wouldn't bother me.

 

if we get a 2nd rd pick give me edmund gates if we go wr.

 

Yeah, you could, but what fun would that be ?

You hit the nail on the head, Hartline "sneaks" past the defense w/ double moves, play fakes, flea flickers etc. If a defender bites hard or is caught looking in the backfield then Hartline can beat them. But he's not just going to outrun an NFL DB without help.

That is what's so difficult about hitting Hartline deep, from a QB's standpoint. You have to be damn near perfect. If Henne puts air on the ball (Jets game) for Hartline to run under it, Hartline struggles to get to the ball in time. If its a 50 yd throw and Henne throws it 53 yds instead, provided there's enough air on the ball, I want my "deep threat" to be able to stride out the difference and get to the ball. If he cant, then maybe he's not a deep threat. Also, if its a 50 yd throw and Henne throws it 45 yds instead, I want a guy who can see the ball in flight, judge the trajectory, make the adjustment, and out-position the defender to make the play. Hartline struggles w/ both of those facets of the game, and Henne, the fans' whipping boy, takes the blame for it.

Another thing, is taking a short pass, a slant, out, dig etc and turning it into a big gain by out running, eluding defenders etc. Hartline has show zero ability to do this. When he catches the ball in space he'll turn up quickly and get what he can, but he's not breaking tackles or making people miss in the open field. One of the reasons I have Greg Little on my man crush list is b/c I think he can be a dynamic after the catch threat, which can be even more dangerous than a Ginn type who does his damage deep down the field. He's not bad at high pointing the ball or bailing out his QB, either.

The last point is more technical. WRs are taught to erase the DBs cushion, force them out of their backpedal, and then you can attack them and create separation. Hartline struggles with this, defenders don't respect his speed, even when he's singled. Bess always seems to be open b/c defenders simply cant make the sharp turns and sudden stops necessary to keep up with him. He is a one stride cutter w/ cat like quickness and he can consistently create separation b/c of this. Marshall is not a one stride cutter, nor is he fast or especially quick, but his size and wingspan give him a natural degree of separation, and his catch radius is huge. When he catches the ball in stride, w/ space, he can do serious damage, but you'd have to find some Denver tape to see it b/c Miami never stretched the field, and Marshall never had any space in 2010.

Hartline does none of the above. He doesn't have great speed, size, or quickness. Hard to be a deep threat w/o any of the 3. Hartline is not a bad player, I'm not bashing him at all. But he is NOT a deep threat, he isn't a guy that causes defenders to back away from the LOS, nor can he consistently punish them for hugging the LOS. He's a possession WR on a team full of them, and if we're going to threaten the entire field for a change, Hartline needs to be upgraded. So does the RB position & if we can, add a seam buster to compliment Fasano.

 

You're right. It's only an acurrate determiner of what that particular corner, and his team, feels about the wideout's explosiveness. If you think you know better than the pros do, then stop fooling around w/ us and turn in your resume somewhere lol.

[video=youtube;bDdr6I-j1lw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDdr6I-j1lw[/video]

Watch Jason Allen, he starts the play at 8 yards, he NEVER even bothers w/ a back pedal and Wallace still runs right past him. No double move, no play fake, no flea flicker, just pure speed. Allen wasnt fooled, or looking into the backfield, he respected Wallace's speed, and he was roasted anyway. I don't know what you mean by "fast" enough, but when I'm talking speed, that's what I mean, and Hartline isnt even in the same area code as Mike Wallace.

So, any time the ball is not dropped in a bucket 50 yards down field, it's the QB's fault? Here's what a real deep threat does when the ball isnt perfectly thrown:

[video=youtube;itUb_4ANexY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itUb_4ANexY[/video]

He makes his QB look good.

LOL you don't think Marshall could've gotten deep if there wasn't a safety over top of him, every snap? No one was doubling or bracketing Hartline, ever. Or did you not see the games ?

Its not all about 40 times. Its speed, size, quickness, cutting and change of direction, ball skills, elusiveness, all of it. Hartline doesnt have the skill set to be a true deep threat, he'll sneak his way past the defense every now and then, but that's not enough IMO.

 

I would suggest that certain defenses require certain techniques in the secondary. So...if there is footage of people playing off coverage on Davone Bess (which happens in certain defenses and who everyone on this board knows runs like a 7.2 forty) would that mean that he is a deep threat? Of course not. Nobody is comparing Brian Hartline to Mike Wallace or DeSean Jackson. Bringing in youtube footage of coverage against those two insults everyone's intelligence.

What I have said from the beginning is that he has the size, speed, agility, intangibles, and toughness to be a very good compliment to Brandon Marshall. I still believe that despite your attack on his abilities. My eyes and experience tell me he is faster, quicker, tougher, and more well rounded than people give him credit for.

With all due respect, Mike Wallace and DeSean Jackson, the best deep threats in the league, do not come back for the ball and elevate over the corner. They run past the defense and the quarterback drops it over their shoulder. And again, I am not comparing Hartline to either of those players. That is ridiculous. However, I would suggest Hartline was in that exact position, around five yards at least past the corner, at least six times this year, and each time Henne either significantly overthrew or under threw the ball. That is Henne's fault...any objective view of that situation would come to that conclusion.

Again...the discussion from the beginning was what type of player Hartline is...not whether he is Mike Wallace or DeSean Jackson. My argument is that Hartline's combination of speed, size, quickness, cutting and change of direction, ball skills, elusiveness make him a quality player who I believe is still ascending who can run after the catch, get over the top, and make plays in traffic.

 

He's more of a 3rd round guy and I too want us to draft him

 

IMO he is a horrible compliment to Marshall and Bess. He's another possession WR, when what we need is a big play threat.

Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Sid Rice, Vincent Jackson, Miles Austin, are all more dangerous than either Jackson or Wallace. The former 5 can take a short gain and manufacture a big play on their own. You say Hartline is some big play guy, but when has he EVER turned a short gain into a big play?

Dude, Hartline is the #2 guy, the #3 if you count Bess in our trips sets. I don't know what more evidence you want, but at this point I'd rather agree to disagree than continue explaining the obvious.

 

Paint flames on it... duh

 

The kid is sneaky with his body, and according to Sparano, the smartest man on the team, also plays with a nice swagger when hes on..I like him enough to not spend more than a third on a player that could take reps away from him..I believe we have bigger holes to fill..

 

That's what she said.

 

Exactly. That's the point. We SHOULD be comparing Hartline to those guys b/c some fans are mistakingly saying he's our "vertical threat". People need to look at the vertical threats around the league and then take a close look at Brian....... and see how much of a difference there truly is.

How does he compliment Brandon? His presence on the field as a #2 is the opposite of complimenting him; it's hindering him, and if you don't believe me, look at Brandon's YAC........ or better yet-- rewatch our games and see how quickly Marshall is tackled once the ball arrives. "Quicker and faster"? You mean like when Brian was caught from behind in the Saints game? He can accelerate, but he is NOT fast. He's not even fast for college. His acceleration and toughness makes him better suited for the slot IMO.

Wallace and DeSean don't need to elevate over CBs when they're frequently 5 yards beyond them, however Wallace DOES elevate. I've seen him do so, and his 40' vertical is ridiculous. Again, you should be comparing Hartline to those other players b/c their playmaking ability is something that we need that Hart doesn't possess. Here's a video of Wallace. Notice how often he's behind coverage. Notice how often he makes Roethlisberger look good b/c of it. Notice how he alters his routes to haul in passes off target. Notice how long this darn highlight film is and compare it to the one that doesn't exist from Hartline. lol.

[video=youtube;vSOlJCoZmTI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSOlJCoZmTI[/video]

6 times? That's nothing. Wallace can do that in 1 game. lol. Again, you're missing the point, no disrespect. If Hartline had ACTUAL deep speed rather than sneaking by defenders, he would be able to run under those so called "over throws" just like the other TRUE deep threats around the league do for their QBs. What's not to understand about a guy who runs a 4.5 needing the ball placed almost precisely on deep routes b/c he cant run under a pass, and shows little ability to attack it, highpoint it, or come back for it? You don't think that puts extra pressure on a QB? There's little window for error with Hartline, and that's the last quality you want from a vertical threat. GM was a QB. I was a QB. We both know there's a massive difference here.

There are 2 parts to the equation on a deep ball, yet you make it seem like it's all on the QB on every throw to precisely drop the ball in the bucket in unbroken stride without being left or right. That's not practical. Go back to the Wallace highlights. Half of the equation is on the receiver's ability to FINISH the play. So what if Brian occasionally sneaks past defenders?------- he's not a legit finisher. Big deal if he occasionally gets the first part of his route down (the separation) if he lacks the ability to finish the last part (the catch). We don't have Peyton Manning and we may never will. We need a vertical threat who offers the greatest potential for completing a pass NOT thrown by a HOF QB.

It's basically simple math kind of stuff. Let's say we're running a go route (none of this double move stuff): If receiver X (Hartline) is running all out at 20 MPH with no closing burst in reserve, and receiver Y (Jacoby Ford) is running at 25 MPH with a 2 MPH burst in reserve, which one, if any, allows the QB to throw the ball further? If the DB can run 22 MPH, which receiver can create greater separation? Which one eats up the cushion sooner? Which receiver, if any, has the ability to nullify an overthrow? Which, if any, receiver can gain greater separation the further the pass is in the air? Which, if any, receiver allows a DB to recover the further the pass is in the air? To sum it up, which receiver allows for more margin of error for the QB?

We can probably run this same equation for a guy's ability to come back on the ball if we time how long it takes them to react to the pass mid air on under throws or throws offline. I haven't seen anything more than mediocre in this department. So we know he doesn't have elite speed to run under passes or overthrows, and we know he shows little ability to come back and attack an under throw, so all that leaves is just throwing it up to him and letting him win a jump ball. Unfortunately, he's shown little ability to shield defenders downfield and highpoint passes over them....... so what's that leave?------- it basically leaves hitting a 4.5 guy virtually in stride or else the pass may be incomplete or INT'd.

To understand what he "is", we have to understand what he is not. He's not a vertical threat in the strict sense.

I don't know where you see this combination. Cmon now--- you just described Andre Johnson.

Hartline isn't even in his league. His combination of <average> speed (4.5 is slow for a vertical threat), <average> size (186 lbs is thin at 6'1.5), good quickness (better suited for short-intermediate routes, not verticals), <average at best> cutting and COD (you're kind of insulting guys like DeSean Jackson who actually CAN cut and change direction on a dime), <mediocre> ball skills (now you're insulting guys like Hakeem Nicks), <average at best> elusiveness, <mediocre> run after catch ability (unless you hit him on a slant and he splits the defense), <sub par for a vertical threat> get over the top ability, and makes plays in traffic (in short-intermediate routes).

He's a smart, gritty receiver with good acceleration, hits top end quickly (not to be confused with fast), runs good routes, blocks well, is a reliable catcher on short-intermediate passes, and plays hard. He has decent height and good toughness for his thinner frame. Like I said, what YOU described is Andre Johnson.

Here's Brian's draft profile from Consensus Draft Services.http://cdsdraft.com/profile.php?id=3500

Sorry...... but "intangibles and smarts" are NOT the primary adjectives you want to be using when describing your vertical threat.

Here's CBSSports

 

I perceive scoring with women similarly to how I perceive receivers who require the use of head fakes, flea-flickers, and double moves in order to get deep.-------> If I have to slip her a ruffie, then I probably shouldn't be filling out applications for "gigolo wanted".

If I have to yell "Look over there!!" in order to make the rabbit disappear, then a magician probably isn't my true calling.

 

For god sakes people...I am not comparing him to Mike Wallace, DeSean Jackson, Larry Fitzgerald, Miles Austin, or any of the people you guys have brought up. Would I rather he was one of those guys? Absolutely. But is it fair to say that finding a guy like the guys you mention is extremely difficult? Absolutely.

My argument is that Hartline is much better than the very bleak evaluation some people seem to have. Can he get over the top of the defense? Yes. Can he make plays after the catch? Yes. Can he elevate to get the ball? Yes. Is he someone who can hurt teams if they aren't careful? Yes. Would we be having this conversation at all if Chad Henne had played better last year? No. Would I rather he was the third wideout and one of the guys you mentioned was opposite Marshall? Yes. Was he much improved year one to year two? Yes. Should we expect similar improvement to year three, when receivers tend to make a large jump? Yes. Can Miami win the Super Bowl if he is opposite Marshall and a Randall Cobb replaces Bess, bumping Bess to four? Yes....if quarterback play improves.

Also, I never said he was a deep threat. I said he is capable of getting over top of the defense. There is a difference. Bess is not capable. Hartline is. That doesn't mean teams have to game plan for him like they have to for Marshall...that just means when Marshall pulls the double coverage he is capable of making them pay...something he did quite a bit last year...only to have Henne drop the ball.

Let's be fair to this kid. He makes plays...he showed a ton of improvement from year one to year two...he works hard...he has better athleticism than what some Henne supporters want to admit. Let's see how he develops.

I never compared Hartline to any of the players you are jamming down my throat. All I did was point out, whether people want to turn a blind eye to it or not, was that Hartline made plays last year. That he would have made a ton more if the quarterback play was better. That he improved significantly from year one to year two. That coverage schemes and quarterback play can impact how a corner plays a wideout. If you want to disagree, I have no problem with that. Let's just try to limit the condescending responses...everyone is entitled to their opinion...and just because you think your opinion on a player is better...doesn't mean it's right. I have a higher opinion of Hartline than you do...you don't see me making any condescending remarks to you because I think I am right and I disagree with your assessment of his abilitities.

I respect the hell out of your football knowledge, and I'm on this site to be challenged, but I've been around long enough to know I've been right at times and wrong at times...and for that reason I stay away from the condescending remarks...I would suggest attempting to do the same.

 

This...

He always seems as if he's about to fall down. He doesn't have great body control or either he just looks weird when he's trying to control it.

 

Personally, I think he's an outstanding receiver to have as our #4. That would mean there's depth to our receiver unit, and it would also mean that or #2 has more big play capability. IMO we've been stuck in a poor offense for so long that at times featured Ted Ginn as our #1 receiver that we lost sight of the fact that Hartline isn't anything special as a #2. He's merely ok. It's not an insult to move him to the #4 spot. It's a compliment to our offense.

Teams like the Packers have Jordy Nelson (who is even better than Brian) as their #4. Does that make them a dumb team? Is that overkill? No & no. It makes them strong and deep at the position. It means that if there's an injury there isn't a massive drop off in talent thrust onto the field. We go from Hartline to falling off a cliff. They go from Driver and Jones to a guy who is still very productive b/c they had him learn all 3 WR positions so that he can still see significant snaps. Having Brian, Bess, and Brandon on the field together gives us very little flexibility IMO. That's 3 possession receivers running routes simultaneously.

This shouldn't even be about what Hartline can or cant do. He's not the focal point of our offense. What this should be about is Henne (or whomever the QB is), Marshall, and the ground game that needs establishing. It seems like some of you are trying to make this offense fit to Hartline when we need to be making it fit to Henne, Marshall, and the ground game. I honestly don't care what Hartline's stats are. We don't pay him the big bucks. He's not the elite playmaker on this offense. Marshall is.

The question shouldn't be: "Is Hartline good enough to play #2?"....... it should be: "What can we do to get the most out of Marshall and Henne?" because when you ask this latter question, Hartline as the #2 is nowhere in the answer. He doesn't make Brandon better; he makes him less productive. He doesn't allow Henne to utilize his cannon arm to the best of its ability; he hinders it. He hinders it because, thanks to Marshall, Bess, and Fasano not being legit vertical threats, our vertical threat needs to come from the #2 position by default. As long as Hartline is at #2, we have no starting receiver with the ability to really blow the top off of coverage. How does that affect the ground game when safeties dont respect us vertically?

IMO our offense would open up more and create more big plays if a more playmaking #2 were opposite Marshall while Hartline plays the slot on 1st down and 2nd & 3rd and long. Hart could can be made into our version of Jordy Nelson, a utility guy who can fill in everywhere. This way we can eliminate the problems we have with Bess on 1st down and 3rd & long where he doesn't allow us to stretch the field or create more spacing for Marshall to make plays.

 

Yes, we would. Henne's play has nothing to do with the fact that Hartline is still an average at best #2 WR in this offense. I guess Henne's play does have something to do with it because forcing your #2 WR to be your vertical threat when he's not suited for the role will hamper a QB's performance when said QB is more of a cannon-armed gunslinger rather than a Pennington'esque passer relying on great accuracy b/c he doesn't have the arm strength to push the ball downfield.

Hartline and his craftiness are suited for Pennington....... Wallace, Jacoby Ford, Mario Manningham, etc are suited for Henne. This isn't rocket science. lol. Stop trying to make Henne into something he's not. Yet you're shocked when he doesn't perform well.

Right....... b/c it's much more important to find a QB who suits our #2 WR's skill set rather than finding a WR that fits our QB's.

 

Didn't mean to insult anyone's intelligence. The point I'm trying to make to you is that Hartline can't run past NFL corners w/o a play fake, double move or flea flicker. You keep talking about how he gets behind the defense, and that's how he does it, with trickery, not speed. And getting behind the defense is only half the battle, you also have to um, catch the ball.

That's ludicrous IMO. In no way, shape or form does Hartline make life easier on Brandon Marshall. Hartline is most effective in the short-intermediate area, same as Marshall. What we need is a WR who forces the defense to expand, making room for Marshall to operate.

If only it were that simple. Number one, can you name the 6 times? Also, were the routes run with play fakes, double moves or flea flickers? And do you place any responsibility at all, on the WR to adjust to the over/underthrown ball? IMO if Hartline needs a perfect pass every time, then he needs to be on the sidelines w/ Moore, Wallace, Pruitt and whoever else can't make a friggin play on their own. Look around the league dude, QB's are not dropping dimes in buckets from 50 yds away, they either put the ball up and let the WR run under it, or they put the ball in the general vicinity of the WR and let the guy MAKE A PLAY. Hartline has been in the league 2 years and he has not made a single play on his one. I suppose you could count the miracle catch in Tennessee, but that was more luck than skill. 27 games, zero plays? At some point you have to stop blaming the QB.

Again, when has Hartline ever done any of these things? When did he show ball skills, elusiveness, cutting ability, which game? Which play? Anything would help b/c I've watched every snap Hartline has ever taken and I've never seen any of what you're describing.

 

I don't want to keep going in circles on this. I completely get were you are coming from...I understand your position...I just think it may be both too harsh and impacted by what might be an overprotecting opinion of Chad Henne. That said, I may be both too optimistic and too tough on Chad Henne. The bottom line, I've have also watched every single snap Hartline has ever taken and I see things differently. I see a kid who improved drastically from year one to year two, both in consistency and athletic prowess. I saw a player who, for whatever the reason, was running wide open a number of times last year (and I apologize for not remembering exactly which game outside of the Cleveland throw down the right sideline). I also remember a handful of plays were he showed me something in open space, both from an acceleration and change of direction standpoint...something I didn't think he had.

Now, would we benefit from an upgrade at that position to a Mike Walace or DeSean Jackson type? Without a doubt. But is it also arguable that we can take the next step with Hartline opposite Marshall and an improvement in the slot? I think the answer is yes.

Again, I am not trying to make this about Henne. That is not my intention. I just think Hartline would have had a significantly better year if Henne had even played average...I feel the same way about Marshall.

In essence, we will have to agree to disagree on Hartline's abilities. I think he is better than you give him credit for.

 

This is fearless and reckless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH94OG2Fcko

Greg Salas is my nominee for Hartline's replacement.