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Owners vs Players- Your Choice?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Southbeach, Mar 16, 2011.

  1. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    You're just wrong SB.

    First, the NFL does not have antitrust exemption.

    Major League Baseball is the only professional sports league with broad antitrust protection. The National Basketball Association, the National Hockey League, the NCAA, NASCAR, professional tennis and Major League Soccer supported the NFL in this case, hoping the high court would expand broad antitrust exemption to other sports.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story?confirm=true&id=09000d5d8184a051&template=with-video-with-comments


    The players are not partners. Not by definition. Not in reality. Not in make believe. The players are employees.
     
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  2. pocoloco

    pocoloco I'm your huckleberry Club Member

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  3. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    I love every second of it, Im not eating out of garbage cans from it. Ill gladly pay the money i do for it.
     
  4. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Again, I'm not going to edit lists of facts to suit my needs. I'm not a fallacious arguer like most on here. The primary focus was the police officers. I already stated my argument of why police officers should be paid more than NFL players (at the least, their freaking backups) and I'm not going to get into a circular argument. (Re)read if you'd like.

    If the data were out there, I'd be willing to bet the percentage of physically fit police officers (and armed servicemen and women) is greater than those of the average NFL player. Remember, twenty of the 44 players on the field of any non-special teams play weight about or over 300 pounds. Also, how many NFL players have died over the past decade? 2? How about police officers? Soldiers? Marines?

    The latter don't play games for their money, either.
     
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  5. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    The game is ruined. Not to the point where it is unwatchable but its not as good as it used to be. Which is why when someone says they are for the fans I'm against them too. Its the fans that continue to suppport the game whne they have made hitting a penalty
     
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  6. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    they weigh 300 pounds but run 4.7 40s or have 5% body fat like odrick. These men in the NFL are some of the most physically gifted people on the planet, thats why so few of them can do what they do.

    I can go right now and be a police officer. I cant go get signed by an nfl football team.....not even a water boy.
     
  7. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Hitting isnt a penalty, your reaching. Leading or spearing with your head is a penalty, and I dont neccesary blame them. Watching guys brains get turned into jello infront of my eyes doesnt get my rocks off.........I disagree big time that the game is ruined.
     
  8. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Bro,

    I don't drink and if I did, I wouldn't buy it at a football game. The only thing I've bought at a professional sports venue in the last 3 years was a coke at a Pittsburgh Pirates game because I wore a black shirt on a 100º day. The weather channel said it was supposed to rain. No rain.

    The only Dolphins jersey I own is a fake one I paid $30 for. Aside from that, all my sports memorabilia is ≤$25, with the exception of a Marlins fitted cap. I paid $30.99 for that.

    You're right that I have a problem with America in that the general public supports Michael Vick more than our Armed Forces.... but the other assumptions proves the assuming adage.

    EDIT: Oh, I didn't mention I don't go to the games. Look at post #81 if you missed the reasoning.
     
  9. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Technically you do need an education. You cannot play pro football coming right out of high school.

    And to be in the NFL you need an area of profession or skill. To be a local cop (unless we're talking NYPD or something), you don't need that. I expect $25/hr for my profession when I graduate in May (freelance videographer) because I am very skilled at what I do. I am not the best at what I do, but the best are getting paid millions. In two years, if I am still doing freelance, I would expect somewhere between $40-$45/hour. That's because what I do is a profession for me. I am not an amateur at what I do. Neither is Paul Soliai and these NFL players.

    Not to mention you gave the median salaries; Paul Solai is getting an average of the top 5 salaries at his position. Please list the 5 highest paid people at each position listed and then we can look into the argument. And then after that we should see the average career length of a nose tackle and of those positions listed.

    Good thing you aren't doing a scientific research project. :lol:
     
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  10. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Good thing we're not doing a project together.

    Do CIA agents make $12 million? Or 5? Or 1?

    How about presidential bodyguards? Police captains?

    Also, look at the wikipedia pages (college websites if you're taking me up on the collaboration--wikipedia is NOT a source!!!) of NFL players. 75% of them will say liberal arts/studies, 20% of them will say sports managements and 5% of them actually got an education.
     
  11. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    An education is an education........regardless of major.....you are splitting hairs now. Criminal Justice isnt exactly chemical engineering
     
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  12. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    Did you read what I said? Did I say they finished school? Did I say they need a degree? An "education" is a relative term and the point remains, they do need to go to college for a few years before they can go pro.

    I don't know how much CIA agents make, nor do I care. Feel free to look up the number then check their average career length... I am going to guess that a nose tackles average career length is around 4 years. If you look at the average career length of a top five nose tackle, I would guess it's a double that. The average career length of a top 5 paid CIA agent, I am willing to bet, is way more than 8 years.

    Wikipedia isn't a credible academic source, but it is a credible source. Wikipedia is a site where everything must be cited otherwise you'll see a red flag of some sort saying that the information hasn't been validated.
     
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  13. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Did you read what I said? The implication was that liberal arts is not an education... even if it was, the professors would pass them through based on their standing (I've seen it happen at UM and I know it happens elsewhere).

    An average NT's career lasts longer than 4 years. 4 years? Lol really? 4 years?

    Anyway, here:

    https://www.cia.gov/careers/opportunities/support-professional/special-agent.html

    First off, I'm reminded that all of these examples I'm bringing up are fulltime jobs lmao... nevermind the increased dangers.

    But alas, back to my point.... $155,000 if you're the BEST CIA agent. Can we agree that's the highest kind of work for a police officer-type?

    A CIA agent, would therefore, have to work 80 years to earn what Soliai does in 1.

    I'm going to go take a run around the lake while you come up with a new argument.
     
  14. If they don't like the average career length of being a football player perhaps they should of considered pursuing a different career coming out of college. There is no law that requires anyone to turn pro after they graduate.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I have self worth and I can say going to games is really freaking fun. If I was a Seahawk fan I would totally get season tickets and they would be worth every penny.
     
  16. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I doubt you could be a Harvard Prof or a bricklayer either. Your argument makes no sense. A lot of people think they can be a cop, but once they get out there on the streets (or even as soon as training acadamy) they fold like a cheap lawn chair. I'm not saying that YOU couldn't be, but don't just assume that you could unless you've had some experience.

    Now, I think that employees (which NFL players are) have every right to fight for their pay. I don't think players make too much, but I also don't think owners make too much. The MARKET should determine all of that. Not the government. And the owners should be able to pay what they want and the employees should be able to either accept that payment or walk away and find another job.
     
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  17. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    If owners wanted to make tons of money off of revenue, they could purchase a different franchise. It is not the law that they have to buy a NFL team.
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Why couldn't he be a bricklayer?

    Also Harvard professors are paid well.
     
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  19. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    Is this guy serious? The average NFL players career is 3.7 years. NT is probably less considering the time spent in the trenches. Enjoy your jog bro.
     
  20. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    The average NFL player's career lasts 3.5 years according to the NFLPA. What makes you think that nose tackles are so much special that the average nose tackle will long so much longer than 4 years?

    I'm going to say that if a CIA agent begins his profession at say, age 25 after whatever studies you have to do. I am going to assume this person sticks with the career from the day he starts until the day he retires, which is age 65. That's 40 years of service to the CIA, which seems reasonable. We'll say he starts out at $75,000 for a salary and it increases by $5,000 every five years. In 40 years he would make $3,700,000 total. I think that seems very reasonable for an average CIA agent.

    Now lets say a college defense tackle is drafted in the 2nd round of the NFL Draft, he signs a 4 year deal. First year salary is $405,000. The next year it'll shoot up to $480,000. In his third year, he'll have a base salary of $535,000. Then in his final year of his contract, he'll have a $555,000 salary. This is completely reasonable for salaries for a rookie. Hell for fun, we'll give him a $750,000 signing bonus too. Now if his career ends, like the average player, he would have made $2,725,000.

    Obviously things are different for the best at each position, but there's too many variables for stuff like that. Where that player got drafted in the NFL draft; what his contract is like, clauses, if he gets cut, etc. Just like there is variables with the CIA agent.

    I think what you're interpreting me as saying is that guys like Peyton Manning deserve every penny they make. They are overpaid, no question about it.. however it's guys on the practice squad and most starters that aren't getting paid as much as the media makes it out to be. I'm not arguing for the sake of Peyton Manning, its for guys like Cameron Wake who are playing at a top level but are getting paid jack **** for their production.

    I really have a hard time believing that the best CIA agent is paid $155,000 though; even if that's what the books say.
     
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  21. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    If you don't stop *****ing, Imma slap a ho.
     
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  22. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    And that's why you sit at the back of Justice League meetings.
     
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  23. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    hip hop hoorayyyyy hooooooo
     
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  24. Your right, they chose to purchase a team just like the players choose to play for them. I think some of you think owners just sit in thier ivory towers collecting money hand over fist without a worry in the world.
     
  25. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I don't understand your thinking here...they did BUY the team.
     
  26. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Have you ever tried to lay brick? I'm betting not or else you wouldn't have asked this question.

    Who cares what a Harvard Prof makes, what does that have to do with what I wrote to Sick?
     
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  27. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    This^^^

    The entire, "I hate rich people 'cause I'm not rich" is a very stupid way of thinking. If most people had an idea of what business owners go through they'd think much differently.
     
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  28. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I'd like some of you to answer a question for me.

    How much is "too much" money? What is the maximum dollar amount an owner and player should be able to make in the NFL? Is there a different number for each? If you believe there is a maximum amount, please tell me why you think so and how you come up with this "limit" or limits if you believe there is a difference between player/owner.
     
  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Some do something like that. That is part of the reason why the owners opted out of the CBA. Because the owners who work and make great business decisions to generate revenue upped the salary cap so the owners who just want to make money off of the revenue sharing, make less money.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree with this.

    If you're a fan, and you're angry that there might not be football in 2011, then I don't see how you hold the players responsible. There was a CBA in place, with football set to happen in 2011, and then the owners opted out of it. They did that, the players didn't do that, the owners did. Then the "bargaining table" was as you say a total joke until the NFL had those TV contracts pulled from them. Perception may be that during the period AFTER the TV ruling, the players were more hard line than the owners...but the players were far, far, far less hard line about this than the owners the whole time over the longer term. They were willing to make concessions the whole time. The owners only showed that they were willing to make concessions at the 11th hour, and that was because they were A) Concerned about the TV contracts and cash flow issues which would stem from them, B) Warned by the judge who ruled against them in that deal that he's seen through their disingenuous bargaining and that he would not be friendly with them if de-certification happened and the anti-trust cases came onto his docket.

    Suddenly the NFL is like, oh sh-t we tried to get away with something and we may have really stepped in it, let's try and get something done.
     
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  31. SnakeoilSeller

    SnakeoilSeller New Member

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    The owners.
     
  32. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    I own a few Subways so yes fast food works for me. If you own a business fast food or fast cars, whatever you've spent your life and savings on would you open the books for your employees to tell you where you need to spend your money and how much your going to share with them?
     
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  33. Sippi

    Sippi Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Owners
     
  34. Sippi

    Sippi Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I own a quick service franchise as well, and no way do my employees need to know what I make.
     
  35. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    You actually OWN stuff? How in the world did that happen? Did you have to WORK and work HARD for those Subways, or did the magic "Rich Guy Elf" drop bags of gold on your doorstep like he did for all those rich NFL owners? Well, you need to give some of those "billions" away because that's just too much money.


    /sarcasm_
     
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  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Interesting that no one has closely made this argument
     
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  37. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I'm a huge fan of football, but not at all costs.

    The CBA ENDED, as per the contract. The owners wanted to renegotiate, because as Kurt Warner said,
    “We had a great deal,” Warner recently said, per Mike Sando of ESPN.com. “We had one of the best deals, in my opinion, of any of the pro sports when you talking about all of the things involved. Players knew that. We understood that. It afforded us lots of luxuries and making a lot of money.
    “But I think players are also realistic to understand, ‘OK, things have gotten out of control to some degree and so we’re willing to even the scales on those things.’ But there’s also things that we want, too. We want things that protect us long-term. We want the health-care issues. We want the issues of a 16-game season as opposed to putting us out there for a couple more games. This is just my opinion, I think players would take a little less money but they want the security of some of the other things that they’re asking for. I think that’s gonna be a big issue because they understand that players have a little more to lose than the owners. The owners will still be owners five years from now. Players, you miss a year and it costs you a lot when you’re talking about a short NFL career. So, players have a lot to lose. But I’m still very I’m optimistic that they’ll find a way to get this done and there will be football in 2011.”

    The players are the ones being unreasonable. Once more, they want partnership status, but none of the risks.
     
  38. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Sure they have.
     
  39. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see how you can support one or the other. It's contractual squabbling that is an inherent part of doing business in the most reasonable way for them to do business. They both have mutual interest in the financial success of the league but they have divergent interests in regards to what they are arguing over, and I don't think there is anything immoral about each side trying to gain a more advantageous deal. Both sides are guilty of playing hardball with the other, and neither have really negotiated in good faith. The owners clearly were angling for a lockout and trying to get the players to concede because of it, and now the players are trying to get a better deal through litigation than they are through negotiations.
     
  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    This is like asking which of the two bank robbers deserve more money. They're both complicit in a lot of the antitrust measures taken. How they split the bounty isn't really that important to me, but I have found it rather entertaining.
     
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