http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/06/2100026_p3/miami-dolphins-ceo-performance.html Have to agree, not about the Canopy as I think that is just noise, but on the stadium as a whole, I'd like to see a new one built as addition ontop of addition ontop of addition normally creates a mess of different design concepts with the underlying problem still remaining...namely the stadium itself was poorly designed back in the 80's. Bless Joe Robbie for privately financing the project 25 yrs ago, but at some point that is a sunk cost and it is time to move on, not pour money in phases, doing it that way you could have had a brand new facility for the same cost.
The stadium was constructed before my existence, so I can't exactly reminisce what the thought process was going in, but I hate it. I mean, as a hurricane fan first, it's cool to play in an NFL facility, but that's where my praise ends. My main gripe with it is that it's in the middle of nowhere and everything that accompanies that problem. It's not close to the airport, it's not close to UM, it's not close to any hotel a team would ever want to stay in, the "skyline" is an elevated highway... what the hell? In my opinion, the model to chase would be Heinz Field. I'm not too big on the aesthetics, but it's just outside of downtown Pittsburgh and it is great for noise/fan interaction and it captures the gorgeous Pittsburgh skyline (it's not close to the airport, either, but that's a product of Pittsburgh's airport not being near the city... it IS near many hotels). I think QWEST field in Seattle is similar, but I have never been there. I would NOT want a dome. Not only is football meant to be played outdoors, the SoFla weather will continue to give us a sense of homefield advantage.
Is it possible that Ross could finance at least a majority of a new facility? It's a tough situation. I don't even know what would happen to the old stadium. Would we leave it or demolish it? Perhaps a MLS team could move there.
Until this franchise starts winning again its going to be a hard sell on a new stadium. The newer stadiums have a big focus on cramming as many bodies in there as possible. We can barely fill this thing up as it is. Outside of die hard fans, and the owners, I don't think there's much clamor for it in the city, and that's where it's got to start.
Well, I do not think it was lost on Stephen Ross that the Cowboys added TO and Parcells and wound up with the 1 billion dollar mausoleum soon afterwards. For me, in the larger picture the problem is a NFL stadium is typically used what..10 times per yr? A 10 event facility is not an attractive place to invest hundreds of millions of dollars add in the Marlins fraud and I'd doubt it happens anytime soon as well. But to then say "Ah-Hah! we will just put even more features on this 25 yr old stadium" does not seem like the right path to take imo.
Nevermind the fact that the public voted for the money in 2004, let’s blame every Dolfan’s favorite scapegoat anyway! It’s so easy. The problem here isn’t the Marlins and their pursuit of a stadium over the last decade, it’s the economy. State and local governments everywhere are refusing to pony up money for stadiums. The Vikings are threatening to leave Minnesota over the issue, the Chargers are having problems with San Diego over a new stadium, and Roger Goodell has publicly complained about the lack of new stadium construction since 2006. Huizenga put $200-300 million dollars into stadium renovations before he sold the team. The state of Florida, Miami-Dade, and Broward probably look at that and think “Why can’t you do the same, Mr. Ross?”
I don't really think it's the Marlins "screwed" the city, rather, it's the objective fact that the taxpayers just put several hundred million dollars into a sports stadium.
It really doesn't matter how many people voted for a dumbass idea, it doesn't make it any less of a dumbass idea. No one goes to Marlins games. No one gives a rats *** about the team except for a handful of people who should get a less boring hobby. When the team is still drawing 500 people to a game a couple of years from now, it'll be even worse.
That's not fair. The Marlins averaged 20,000 fans a game last year and a new stadium will do nothing but increase that number. It's also going to be one of the smallest parks in MLB with the realization that they're not the Yankees. The Marlins have never had a stadium before, yet have been consistently competitive. Combined with the general interest of baseball in South Florida, the only reasonable explanation for poor attendance has been a poor facility. If you've been reading the news or have seen any of the concepts, it's going to be BEAUTIFUL. Sure, as a Dolphin fan, I'm jealous (and see how you would be too), but I'm also a Marlin fan, so I look forward to catching a bunch of games there. You can't blame anyone but the Dolphins for not putting a decent stadium within SIGHT of Miami.
Thanks for admitting you’re just anti-Marlins, not that we couldn’t tell. Your original claim was that the Marlins’ scamming Miami-Dade is playing a big part in Miami-Dade, Broward, and likely the FL state government’s reluctance to put money into Sun Life Stadium. I pointed out that there was no scam, because the money the Marlins got was allocated through public vote. Then I provided evidence that the economy is primarily to blame for state and local reluctance to hand over a few hundred million bucks to the Dolphins by citing other teams having issues securing public money for new stadiums. Blindly blaming the Marlins for everything that does, has, and will go wrong with the Dolphins: so easy, a caveman could do it.
Well.... I dont think anyone will really argue that Joe Robbie stadium is in fact getting out dated. Whether or not the Super Bowls will quit coming.....I dont know. I will say I had no idea there was a 10 year hiatus when the Orange Bowl was considered outdated...its a point I had not considered. Its eventually going to happen....as...once the NFL does stop bringing the Super Bowl...you can guarantee all of the people yelling against some amount of public funding will start to get right on board. All of the hotels, restaurants, etc will surely come on board.... I would like to see Ross do some of the stuff he had talked about with his own money first....I liked the water park idea....I think there needs to be some sort of attractions outside of the stadium itself to bring people to the area. I like what the Patriots have done with Gillette. Foxborro stadium was out in the middle of nowhere kinda like Robbie is. Really only one road into the stadium....and the traffic gets way backed up. Now they have a whole complex surrounding the stadium...so you can go way early and shop at Bass Pro Shops....check out CBS Sports Restaurant and Museum...they call it "Patriot Place" now.... Heres a link: http://www.patriot-place.com/ "In early 2006, the Patriots and Kraft announced plans to build a "super regional lifestyle and entertainment center" in the area around Gillette Stadium named Patriot Place.[33][34] The cost of the project was $350 million, more than the cost to build Gillette Stadium itself; Kraft had purchased much of the surrounding land, about 700 acres (280 ha), when he bought Foxboro Stadium in the late 1980s.[35] The first phase of the project opened in late 2007,[36] and featured the first Bass Pro Shops in New England, as well as Circuit City (now closed), Bed Bath & Beyond, Five Guys Burgers, Christmas Tree Shops, and Staples.[35] In December 2007, the Patriots and CBS announced plans to build a themed restaurant and nightclub, named "CBS Scene," at the site, which would also include studios for CBS-owned WBZ-TV.[37] The restaurant was part of the second phase of the project, which included an open mall, a health center, a Cinema de Lux movie theater, a four-star Renaissance hotel, and "The Hall at Patriot Place." Attached to Gillette Stadium, the Hall includes a two-level interactive museum honoring the Patriots accomplishments and Super Bowl championships, plus the Patriots Pro Shop.[38] The first restaurants and stores in phase two began opening in July 2008, and were followed by the openings of the Hall at Patriot Place and the CBS Scene in time for the beginning of the 2008 New England Patriots season. More locations, including the health center and hotel, opened in 2009, along with additional sites in phase one." Beautiful hotel....all of this brought a much needed facelift to the Foxborro area.... If Ross wants the public behind him...he needs to do something like this...with his own money. I might add: I would like to see the Miami Dolphins go in another direction with how they redesign the stadium.... I think we need to look away from the futuristic design of say Dallas or Arizona....and go with a more "throwback" style. Look at the design of Camden Yards.....yes I agree its for baseball...but you really could capture the history and tradition with the NFL and the Miami Dolphins. Make it "feel " like the old Orange Bowl....but with modern technology. Create a main street shopping experience, and name the little streets after players like Griese, Czonk...Marino....have a Football museum where parents can take their kids and show football the way it was..is...and could be.... There needs to be some sort of heritage in its design and feel.....the way South Florida used to be....back when Flagler was still running his railroad out to the keys...when Davie was as far west as you could go before hitting the Everglades.....
This could happen. I'm sure they will not like having the worst digs in town once the new Marlin's stadium opens. Also it may be the only way Ross stamps his name on this franchise, with his lack of football knowledge. Plus the no Superbowl thing. With Ross having more money than god, all signs could easily point to a new stadium. I hope it's has Seattle's acoustics. But with Ross's fascination towards fan experience his take would be interesting.
When they aren't dead last in attendance, they are close to it. , and that's pulling stuff like counting tickets distributed rather than paying fans who showed up, and even doing stuff like counting fans for tickets sold after games were played in some cases. As for a new stadium increasing attendance, seriously? You're going to take a team that is nearly centrally located in a megalopolis, and then move it way South? Have you even looked at a population density map of South Florida? I don't care if the Marlins are successful from a baseball standpoint because they aren't in a business standpoint. No one gives a **** about baseball in South Florida, if they did, they'd show up.
I don't hate the Marlins. I, like most South Floridans couldn't really care less about their existence, my sole stake is where it intersects with my interests. There's most certainly other issues, but the Marlins aren't helping in any sense, and it's not going to become easier when the the Marlins roll out with another league-bottom attendance score in 2012.
Your denial is difficult to believe given what you’ve said about the franchise. Also, whether or not the Marlins received a stadium has nothing to do with your interests as a Dolphins fan, unless you consider their departure from Sun Life Stadium to be a positive event. Most do. Two words: TV ratings. Though for someone who professes not to care about the Marlins, you spend an awful lot of effort constructing them as the boogeyman of South Florida politics. Regardless, what happens and has happened with the Marlins new ballpark has zero relevance to what Stephen Ross can wring from the public trough. If you wish to learn anything from the Marlins and their pursuit of a new ballpark, look at how it took them a decade, the threat of leaving town, a public vote, overcoming lawsuits, multiple instances of being turned down by the state legislature, and compromising on the location to finally get something done. Stephen Ross simply will not get any money from state and local governments to perform additional renovations to SLS. Won’t happen. Miami-Dade and Broward have their own financial problems, and Rick Scott just turned down $2 billion from the federal government; he’s not going to turn around and send a couple hundred million Ross’ way. Ross will have to pay for renovations out of his own pocket, just like Huizenga. (Though in Huizenga’s defense, he never bothered to ask for money; he always planned to pay for renovations himself.) If a bad economy means that the Vikings can’t get any public money to fix a stadium that’s already broken, the Dolphins sure as hell aren’t going to get money to fix a stadium that’s already working.
Yes, do you know what a megalopolis is? Being in the middle of Miami does not make it centrally located in the megalopolis. The new stadium is now a headache for Dade and Broward people to get to, which is a ****ty business decision.
My reply is ......its a privately owned stadium, so pay for it yourself. The Governor of the State of Florida, is cutting back on schools, and on just about everything else. Miami-Dade County is having a recall election next week, to try and recall Mayor Alvarez, because he just put in a budget that increased tax rolls by an average 12%. We can't afford it, Mr. Billionaire owner Ross, so dig in your own pocket and pay for it. If there is no money for teachers, firemen, policemen, etc...there is no room for corporate welfare for the Miami Dolphins. And if the Super Bowl doesn't come back, I personally will not miss it. Hell, we're never in it anyways.....
I don't know about that. Heinz Field, Philly's new stadium, Detroit's new one, and Arizona's new one, all are smaller capacity than their old stadiums. The idea is to create more demand.
The Marlins stadium is being built with ZERO general revenue tax dollars, unlike what the Dolphins are seeking. The Marlins perpetrated NO FRAUD, its just bitter people who already hate the Marlins who need an axe to grind. Say it was a scam enough times, and you really start to believe it, and post it enough times and others who read it, will believe it was a fraud. Really I expect better from the orange people that post on this board.
Agree in general, but that’s what the Marlins had to do: the city of Miami wouldn’t give them a downtown site. So the Marlins took the old Orange Bowl site because that was the only alternative.
Also about the tax issue, the Dolphins and Stephen Ross, need to really start paying their FAIR SHARE of property taxes. The Lake Lucerne property - the 160 acres that includes Sun Life - is assessed exactly $ 1 a year in taxes. They have never paid their fair share, so take that tax money that has been saved for 24 years and put it into the stadium. HAS EVERYONE FORGOTTEN THIS IS A PRIVATELY OWNED STADIUM ? It wants money from the public, so if they do, then they need to share back with us a portion of the profits they make, or THIS IS NOTHING MORE THAN CORPORATE WELFARE ! I thought most of the conservative Republican types that post on this board HATE WELFARE, well this would be nothing more than that. A HUGE GIVEAWAY and to a company that is making fistfulls of money every year. THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS THAT PAY FOR THIS IMPROVEMENT WILL GET THE SAME TREATMENT MAYOR ALVAREZ IS GETTING RIGHT NOW !
The center of the United State's population is in East Bumble ****. That proves nothing and it sure as hell isn't a good business model. That's flawed logic. Beyond the common sense of a "Miami team being located in Miami," a stadium in Miami Gardens is NOT more accessible to people who actually live in Miami-Dade county. If Broward County had that much of an influence, one would think that they would've been able to hold down a team other than the Panthers (who even LESS people care about than the Marlins).
I agree to an extent.... Do you think it will be so opposed if the Super Bowl takes another 10 years off from South Florida?
No they didn't. Every cent outside of the $ 175 million the Marlins are putting in, is from TOURIST TAXES ! Hotel rooms on Miami Beach, restaurants on the Beach, etc, all are assesed 8.5% instead of the 7.5% the rest of the county pays. So its New Yorkers (who I don't mind soaking their money one bit) and all those Europeans, Canadians etc who are paying for this stadium.
Two words: Not good. It's not a regardless situation, for one as much as you want to white knight the Marlins. As for what the Marlins took to get a stadium, that shouldn't be representative of how hard it should be for the Dolphins, an actual living and breathing team people care about to get one. Those other issues are short-term with the economy, the Marlins stadium scandal is not. The thing is not even built yet and it's likely going to result in Miami's mayor being recalled. Furthermore, from a purely business perspective, it isn't close. The Dolphins would get 2, probably 3 Super Bowls in a decade with an upgraded stadium situation, which would more than pay for any taxpayer costs. The Marlins wouldn't be guaranteed to host a World Series, and even then, the financial impact isn't even remotely comparable to the surrounding area. The Vikings have no chance to host a Super Bowl, hence aren't comparable.
Yes, us conservative types do oppose corporate welfare, so at least this conservative is with you. If Ross wants tax money, he needs to make it worth the while of Broward and Miami-Dade. But he won’t, because he can’t spare the cash. His wallet isn’t quite as deep as it appears.
Two more words: wrong metric. Another two: nice try. As this thread continues, I’m becoming more and more amazed how you seem unable to process the concept that the state and counties will not pay for it because they have no money. This has nothing to do with the Marlins and everything to do with the economy. Alvarez has problems totally unrelated a public vote in 2004 and a city commission vote in 2009. Scapegoat much? Amount of Super Bowls in South Florida since 1997: 3. Dolphins appeared in: 0. Dolphins won: 0. Amount of World Series in South Florida since 1997: 2. Marlins appeared in: 2. Marlins won: 2. Oh my God look at that massive numerical difference! You hate the Marlins. You blame them for Ross’ inability to get public money. We get it. You don’t need to invent justifications after the fact. We see through them.
No it's not. The United States has it's population distributed mostly on the two coasts. South Florida is a strip that is 5 miles wide in some parts. Common sense is irrelevant in terms of business decision. And the trade off of Miami Gardens being less accessible than say the Orange Bowl was for Miami fans is quite offset quite a bit by the fact that it's much better for people from the other counties.
You just don't get it.....no one wants to go to Sun Life to watch a baseball game. TV ratings and radio ratings say otherwise, as the Marlins have some of the highest ratings in both in all of baseball. People would rather stay at home then suffer through the almost nightly rain delays. The new stadium will make that problem go away. Attendance will also go up, because the stadium is closer to people. To get to a game at Sun Life now, on a Tuesday night, 7pm, requires you to leave work at 4:30pm. Most people just don't want to leave work early so they forgo going to the games. These same problems plagued other franchises, such as San Francisco (no one went to games at Candlestick) and in Cleveland before Jacobs Field, and also Tiger Stadium was not a choice venue for fans in Detroit before Comerica Park was built. The hatred towards the Marlins is so unreasonable, I find it facinating. If you claim no one cares about them, why do you post about them ? Why don't you just ignore them ?
So let me get this, you complain about the Marlins low attendance, and yet moving the team to another location within the area is a bad idea ? You mean the people from Broward & Palm Beach, THAT ALREADY DON'T GO TO GAMES, will just be pissed off and not go to games ??? Yeah right......when they aren't already going from Broward & Palm Beach then who cares about them anyways ? And did Broward or Palm Beach step up to the plate and offer any stadium plans & money ? Noooooooooooo, so the Marlins took the best offer they could get. And as for this - the population lives in Broward & Palm Beach crap......how about the people of Kendall, Cutler Ridge, Palmetto Bay, Pinecrest, Perrine, Goulds, West Kendall, etc, who have all been ignored for the last 24 years since Sun Life was built ????? How about that 500,000 in population ? If you live in Cutler Ridge it is about 50 miles to get to Sun Life stadium. Now with the stadium half that distance, people from down there won't be ignored any longer.
TV ratings are the wrong measure for judging TV ratings? Which is a temporary issue. The scandal over the Marlins stadium is going to be an issue long after the economy no longer is. Which is of course why the Marlins and their contractors are the biggest contributors to Alvarez' recall defense. Once again, those Super Bowls are essentially guaranteed. A World Series is not. Furthermore, their respective economic impacts aren't even close. Denver's Metro Convention and Visitors Bureau when talking up the Rockie's World Series visit stated studies suggested a World Series brings 2.4 to 5 million to the area per game hosted. Figures for a single Super Bowl vary widely(from around 100 million up to 600 million estimated for this years Super Bowl), but run the math either way. The Marlins could be in the World Series every single year for the next decade and host the maximum number of games and not match a low to mid range economic impact of a single Super Bowl.
Huizenga understood, HE OWNED THE STADIUM SO IT WAS HIS PROBLEM, not the public. Like I said before, if they want help, then start paying their fair share of property taxes and also let us in on the profits from the stadium, otherwise, PAY FOR IT YOURSELF STEPHEN ROSS !
Hmmmm, seems 80,000 people used to have no problem getting in the old Orange Bowl. I would think its to be a lot less when the new place only holds 37,000.....try another argument.....
I can tell you all something from experience. The Arizona Cardinals had some of th WORST attendance in all of football until the new stadium was built. The games at Sun Devil Stadium were so bad at times I though I would be able to count the number of fans in about 2 minutes. The stadium in Glendale is gorgeous, and also sold out on Sunday.
It's not the same thing... It's not just people from Broward and Palm Beach that currently don't go to games. It's people from Dade who don't go to games either. It's a loser any way you cut it. Bumping up the percentage of people who go from Miami and cutting out Broward and Palm Beach doesn't matter a lick when attendance is still going to suck. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Florida_population_map.png For reference. Kendall, Cutler Ridge, Palmetto Bay, and all these other places don't have nearly the population of Broward and Palm Beach.
It's not even remotely close to comparable between the level of passion in this area for the Marlins and the Dolphins in the '80's. You could put Dolphins stadium in the middle of the everglades and it'd do well enough.
