We're lacking Dynamics on offense. (Hence why we need a different #2 WR)

Little known factoid about the 2010 Titans..no one ran the ball more often than that offense, and Young flourished, applying arkam's razor..we know Young can manage handing the ball off..!

Eh, that is the way I see it TP, we can stick with Henne and probably have better results in 2011 than in 09-10 if the running game is repaired, if we go with Thigpen then I doubt we could do worse, if we go with Young..complete X Factor time...we could make a playoff run, we could finish 8-8.

 

Now that is true! Although I think with Henne there is a chance that He could do the same because he could/should be considered to still be developing. I'm not at all sold he will but there have been signs that he can grow. He improved in a couple of areas last year where you won't see in the statistics.

 

Check out this comparison TP:

Steve Largent:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/L/LargSt00.htm

Brian Hartline:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HartBr00.htm

Thing was, Largent was Seattle's only real target back in the day, so he had plenty of chances.

Now if we see Hartline running out and ups..

 

Well now, keep in mind as well that Largent's first two seasons were relatively quite the same as Hartline's.

but the YPA is in Largent's corner.

And that is the thing, we see Anthony Armstrong tearing it up in DC, I'd hate to pull the plug on Hartline before we know for sure what he is, as he was on pace for 1,000 yds when he broke his finger.

 

How often did Ginn even prove that he could catch that pass? When Ginn is the top option for a first year starting QB, he'll be not throwing to Ginn as often as he can.

 

Didst thou just compareth Brian Hartline to Hall of Famer Steve Largent? Art thou mad? Art thou sensibilities split in twain? Nary compare him to Steve Largent again. That wouldst be like...comparing Chad Henne to Tom Brady. As we know on this board, thou canst compare Chad Henne to anyone good to show parallels.

 

Yea, and so I dideth.

Eh, like Hartline more than most do, not saying Hartline is Largent, not at all just that both were at similar points heading into the third yrs of their careers.

As for Henne, the problem with comparing him, not that I complain about comparisons just complain about using stats to say that a player is better than he is, Henne's 4th qtr QBR and completion percentage is just terrible, so you can have a statistically fine looking Qb but the reality is out on the field when it matters Henne folded up his tent in the 4th qtr.

My hope is that happened directly due to the running attack not attacking.

 

Difference being, Brian Hartline has shown something, while Chad Henne has not.

People can complain about Hartline not being a "playmaker", but was Brandon Marshall a "playmaker" this season? Scoring touchdowns is just as much a function of the offense as a whole as it is the player.

 

When it came to the long pass, he caught most of them. The passes where he was having problems were the bullets.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about. Before the two fall down INT's against the Lions, he looked amazing. 2009 he was solid. This dude has made all the throws and just needs more help, like the running game, and has to put it together in all 4 qtrs.

Then why do you then throw all the blame on the QB?

 

A first year starting QB with Ginn as his top option. Mull that over for a second.

 

This is untrue as in Henne has pretty damn good accuracy down the field. The problem is getting in sync with your wideouts to complete those. And you need a WR who has that short area burst to get to the ball.

The problem last season laid in the feet, technique, and mindset of Henne. Definitely not in his ability to throw those. He NEVER trusted his line and didn't step into his throws. His feet were inconsistent behind that line and he didn't really have the confidence in himself to go deep. HOWEVER, Henne has a beautiful deep ball when he learns to stop being a pansy over the crap Henning, Lee, and Sparano pulled on him last season. He just needs to regain that confidence and swagger he had at U of M and his first 2 years at Miami.

Also add to the fact that teams knew Hartline can be singled and is their only deep threat, you don't really give that much to work with down the field.

 

And that is why TP's OP is flawed in the sense that no matter how fast the Wr is, if Henne cannot hit them down the field, and in 2010 he could not, then it does not matter who is running the route, Hartline was open deep, as was Ginn and to a lesser extent Marlon Moore.

But Henne couldn't hit them so the Defense could simply shadow Marshall single up Hartline or Moore and not be concerned with passes deep down the field.

 

Amazing? Against who? Was it the game where he had a 69 rating against the Bengals 2nd string defense? The game where he threw 3 INTs and made Rob Ninkovich a star? Maybe it was the 3 INTs against Baltimore, or the 3 INTs against Cleveland????

 

In the Lions game. Reading Comprehension.

 

Friend ToddsPhins:
right on about dynamics. how to create it, is more complicated.

coaching:
1) you acquire players to build/fit your system and/or adjust your system to the roster
2) you adjust & coach-up the talent you have to create/modify the actual, overall ability/dynamics of the team
3) then, train & game plan accordingly, figuring out how to win with what you've got on the team.
4) motivation falls flat with improper on-field chemistry. success breeds success, however, can't be successful through motivation alone. you've got to have the correct template on field for success to take root.

dynamics:
dynamics result from coaching, inventive combination & plays that create chemistry on the field. simply put, getting the most of your what you've got. axiom: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
the real problem may lay more in the coaching not the speed

 

With a power running game.

 

Exactly. Pretty sure a combination of him being Ginn, a good running game, Davone Bess, and Tony Sparano's coaching style (as explained by Ricky Williams), lead to Henne not throwing to Ginn much.

 

Thats not the point at all I was trying to make. Hartline cant burn people downfield consistently and teams knew they could put one man on him and he wouldn't do that much damage. We had 1, let me repeat ONE deep threat on the entire offense, and he's not even a true deep threat. Marlon Moore is terrible, the dude has no idea how to catch a football.

 

Henne's best game of his career would most likely be the Lions game outside the 1st Jets game. And even then the Lions game rivaled it. He had like 3 mistakes the entire game and they werent even the INTS. 2 were protection calls and one was late with the ball. He played really really good that game and was throwing rockets into the wind.

 

Well, one of the reasons why I am not totally down on Chad Henne, just at the "don't trust him" stage, is 6 interceptions were not his fault totally, they were Receiver mistakes.

15 Td's and 13 int's is not terrible production from a 2nd yr starter in an offense that went from #4 in rushing the ball to #22 in rushing the ball, I do think he is a limited Qb but we probably can win with him.

And let us also keep in mind Henne was playing on a recently dislocated knee cap.

 

Ricky Williams explained that Tony Sparano was a micro manager.

Sparano does not call out players. However he has called out Henne for not taking shots downfield.

 

i agree with Todd, but also understand what Pad is saying .... there are 2 parts to both having a WR that can get deep and having a guy that must be respected deep. Can Hartline get deep - yes .... is he viewed a consistent deep threat -- probably not.

now is that a function of Hartline .... is it a function of the offense ... is it a function of Henne .... we can all make judgements based off of last year -- many will default to Henne ... i do not. Henne of '09 had no issue slinging the ball around -- did he regress, IMHO - no, he was brow beat into submission by the coaching staff and as a result - they got what they asked for ... safe, uninspring play that went awry due to lack of confidence and lack of our playmakers being put into positions to succeed week in and week out.

but back to Todd .... does Hartline frighten anyone enough to DICTATE coverage .... i believe that's what we are speaking to -- regardless of whether Henne is good or not at connecting with him. IF Hartline demands respect/coverage, then the blanket on Brandon lessens. I don't think Bess was truly effected, so will leave him out of it. It really comes down to finding other outlets that demand attention / dictate defensive coverage schemes to free up Brandon to be the playmaker he can be. That did not happen this year -- and THAT wasn't Henne. No true legitimate deep threat and no consistent TE play allowed defenses to limit Brandon to little or no YAC when he could get open.

There are 'some' similarities to Ginn and Hartline ... read - Ginn was a legitimate deep threat, but as a result of his timid play -- you normally only had to account for him, and not necessarily alter your defensive scheme - because the odds of him burning you weren't consistently high. Hartline conversely isn't a legitimate deep threat, but can make some deep plays .... so like Teddy, you account for him, but doesn't alter scheme.

 

I understand what he is saying. I do not agree. What you said about Bess is wrong. Bess was good enough to dictate coverage. The entire gameplan of the Bears was to take Bess away. He runs a 4.8 and defenses make sure they cover him.

 

I believe Hartline @ 4.49 is an effective down-field threat. he has good speed, is exceptionally quick & has a knack for getting behind & over top his defender. when he doesn't come down with the ball, often as not, comes down with interference flag which favors the our team.
http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1771

I see Hartline as a Miles Austin (4.47) type receiver & believe he is pro-bowl material in the making.

his biggest problem is finding someone to get the ball to him consistently down field.
having said that
a "blazing" Ted GinnJr-type (that wanted to play football) that could by virtue of pure speed stretch the field, as well as improve kick-returns, would be a nice addition/option, but not a necessary one. what is necessary is a solid offensive upgrade across the front & good coaching.

Hartline can answer the call. the real question may be, how much has our coaching going to improve this year?

 

I don't remember seeing that much, which games are you talking about?

 

The offense became more diverse, with no one that defenses could focus on. Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, Branch, Woodhead, to a lesser extent Tate, all decent options who can get open quickly in the short-intermediate areas. What they sacrificed in losing Moss was the down the field threat. The Jets were able to flood the short zones, mix in some press man, and shut them down in the playoffs. Even w/o much of a pass rush.

 

2nd throw was vs Houston, it was called back for an illegal block by Polite. The Seahawk pass was thrown by Pennington.

 

I see Hartline as a Miles Austin (4.47) type receiver
& believe he is pro-bowl material in the making
& if used consistently would provide the deep threat

he could provide the diversity needed in our passing attack.

 

that was a great throw

 

[video=youtube;Tx41BTMhiac]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx41BTMhiac[/video]

They're not even in the same hemisphere.

 

Friend GMJohnson: "They're not even in the same hemisphere."

miles austin
6"-2 215 lbs
40 time 4.47
drafted in 2006

brian hartline
6"2 195 lbs
40 time 4.49
drafted in 2009

major differences?
may lay in a three years experience deficit & the Dallas OC & QB
only time will tell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNlUIkGgkHc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOCm0fOpOu8

 

Well that added 20 lbs of bulk allows Austin to be one of the best YAC receivers in the league. The Chiefs game when he broke out in '09 is burned in my mind. I've never seen a better performance.

I think Hartline will be quite good, but I don't believe he's the kind of guy that will (be able to) fight for extra yards... and that's ok; we have Marshall.

 

let me suggest that you consider:
1) the three years difference in NFL experience played out under a superior OC & QB
2) your break out moment for Austin came two years after being in the league. in a Hartlines break out moment, two years after his NFL tenure with the dolphins was every bit as impressive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNlUIkGgkHc
3) on youtube there is a clip showing the many deep (badly over or under thrown by Henne) passes that missed Hartline in both 2009 & 2010.
4) Hartline has a faster 20 than Miles & is quicker. they are similar in their receiving abilities & toughness.
5) quick reference: YAC list (these are just 2009 numbers):

5.5 Brandon Marshall
4.8 Anquan Boldin
5.5 Calvin Johnson
5.5 Andre Johnson
3.3 Vincent Jackson
3.9 Reggie wayne
5.2 Donald Driver
7.7 Miles Austin
6.5 DeSean Jackson
4.2 Randy Moss
5.8 Wes Welker (4.8 as a Dolphin)
5.8 Brian Hartline
1.1 Ted Ginn Jr
2.1 Greg Camarillo
4.6 Davone Bess

3.5 Avg Dolphin WR​

I see pro-bowl potential in Hartline & similarities with Miles Austin.
give Hartline a complete offense with a competent QB & OC
he can only grow, stepping his game up even more, over-night.

 

Ginn caught all three long deep passes which is what I was refering to. If the Wr is wide open, and behind the defense you throw the ball if you see him. That was the problem. Henne did not see him.

 

I'm not going to deny that Miami does not have a 2nd truly dynamic player like when the Rams had Bruce and Holt, the Cardinals had Boldin and Fitzgerald, etc. But I also don't think you need that, IF you have a quarterback. And if you don't have a quarterback, then it doesn't matter if you do have that dynamic pair.

You build an offense around a quarterback. If we keep spending resources on other positions without satisfying that one, the only guarantee we have is that we're wasting our time.