He also regressed on the 4th quarter comebacks. In 2009 we saw a couple games where Henne put the team on his shoulder and made plays in game winning or game clinching drives. 4th down vs. Jets, a big 3rd down play vs. Panthers, big drive vs. the Bucs. And those are just the games I remember. We didn't see much of that this year. When we won, it was because we got a little lead and our defense had to grind it out. They received little to no help from the offense. Also, Henne didn't have that short memory he displayed in 2009. In 2009 he would make a big mistake, but then recover from it. The Bucs game is a great example of this. In 2010 Henne seemed to get rattled when he made a mistake and then follow it up with more mistakes.
You lost me when you attempted to make any type of comparison whatsoever with the play of Peyton Manning and Chad Henne.
Much respect DJ. You're one of the few Henne detractors that can go any deeper than "he sucks". I agree w/ most of your opinions on him, I just think most of it is fixable. I think Henne has the skills to be a good QB. He does have some mechanical/technique flaws, many of which we've discussed before. IMO most of it is footwork related. Moving in the pocket, extending plays, finding passing lanes etc, these are things that he can be coached up on. He's never seemed afraid in the pocket, but he often appears confused and risk averse. I think he can be coached up in these areas, its not like he's a 7-8 yr vet, and its not like his coaches made any real investment in developing him. I think Henne's play improved last year, many will disagree. But like you pointed out, sophomore slumps are common place in the NFL, as defenses catch up to a QBs strengths and weaknesses. The 3rd year is when you begin to get a definitive picture. Not saying Henne is the next Troy Aikman, but he has a similar skill set, and two years starting isn't enough to gauge most QB's. Not unless you're Aaron Rodgers good or Jamarcus Russell bad. Henne's career IMO, can still go either way. Get him a run game and some play makers & see what he can do, if it doesnt work out, I can accept that. But he's the most talented guy we've had back there since Marino left, and the grass isn't always greener.
Good thing I put it at the very end huh? So feel free to respond to everything before the comparison instead of hiding behind a straw man. Or if you're a Henne sucks b/c I say so guy, stand up and say so, its not like you're the only one.
It would be so nice if posters on here actually knew what the word Strawman meant. You made a comparison to Peyton Manning. I commented on it. Nothing about it is strawman. But like everyone else on this board who uses it, I bet you thought it sounded clever to put it in a sentence. I am not a Henne sucks guy. I'm a "We have a serious question mark at the QB position guy." Or a realist.
I'm sorry, I wrongfully assumed that you were clever enough to understand that I wasnt equating the skills/talent level of Chad Henne and Peyton Manning. I also assumed that you wouldnt purposely attempt to dumb the discussion down into an attempt to imply that I was making such a comparison. Wrong again. Instead of addressing what I actually said, you chose to go the Strawman Peyton route. When in reality the only "comparison" made was that #1 they both had bad moments this year. Manning threw 11 INTs in a 3 game span this year. Including consecutive 4 INT games, with 4 of the 8 INTs returned for TDs. And #2, Of it's unfair to judge Manning's or Henne's seasons based on a couple bad games. Fine, you're not a Henne sucks guy. You're just a "Henne regressed but I cant find any factual evidence to show Henne regressed and I ignore all facts that suggests otherwise guy". I apologize for the error.
I just think that you two are arguing to argue at this point I don't think that you disagree all that much. GM, you undoubtedly think that Henne deserves the chance to start next year, whereas MB doesn't disagree with this he just thinks the position is a question mark. I don't think that either of you would disagree with either of these statements, let's get away from discussing what a strawman is and get back on topic. I believe that Henne deserves the chance to compete for the starting job next year, even if we draft or trade for our "QB of the future" because he's a young QB that has shown us glimpses of a guy that can win us big games. But I can't say that if for some reason this draft had talents like Luck, Barkley, or Landry Jones, I would want to pass on them because I'm that confident that Henne is going to be the guy to win us our next super bowl. You both have valid points.
You admit you made a comparison between the two yet still accuse me of strawman? My comment to you - You were comparing their play implying both had stretches of bad games and that you weren't worried about either. A COMPARISON. Once again, the folks that toss the strawman word around on this board are those that are most guilty of it. No factual evidence that Henne regressed? Here you go - TD/INT ratio 2009 - 0.86 TD/INT ratio 2010 - 0.79 Both TDs and INTs are game changers. This ratios is one of the most important statistics there is for a QB. So you chew on that for awhile and I'll bow out of this discussion because I'm turning over a new leaf and not arguing with the blind faith in Henne guys anymore. Life is too short wasted in such efforts.
That isn't providing anything that Henne regressed. What you are showing is a stat that can be contributed to the entire offense as well as Henne. Johnson is asking Henne with his personal skills, has he regressed or not? Things such as protection calls, touch passes, reads, PSR, etc...
Like Horry alluded to, it's the ability to read coverage, footwork, pocket presence, ball placement, audibles, pre-snap reads, protection calls, eye discipline, progressions, command of the offense, etc. That's where QBs are judged, that's where you look to see if a QB has progressed or regressed. Only casual fans use silly stats like TD/INT and QB rating. Stats tell you the who, when, and the what. They don't tell you the why or the how, and that's why you're all confused. If you don't understand why's or hows, you don't understand the game at all. Do you really think Sparano or Ireland are looking at Henne's stat line to judge his play? I'm going to go out on a limb and say they're going play by play based on the play call and Henne's assignment for each play to judge his performance. Did he call the play correctly, was he out of the huddle on time, did he identify the front & the Mike, did make his pre-snap reads and adjustments? Did he take the snap properly, avoid taking any false steps, carry out his fake, hand off, drop back, go thru his progressions properly? Did he read the coverage, did he manipulate the coverage, did he deliver an accurate ball, was he on time? Is he patting the ball, shuffling his feet, tipping his throws, locking in on #1, is he using his cadence? Is he understanding what he's seeing and processing it effectively? I dont have the answers to most of those questions, so you wont hear me making any definitive judgments on Henne. Obviously, you lack the will or the means to duplicate that form of analysis, yet you make ill informed judgments based on TDs/INTs and 4th qtr comebacks etc, which is fine. But you seem to think that you actually know what you're talking about, which is funny to people who know better. You should have bowed out before you ever commented at all, you'd have saved yourself a lot of embarrassment.
I think that Aikman comparison is about right, similar skillsets, Aikman was a career 61 percent 81 QBR type QB. and I feel they are always the ultimate blueprint to follow, from a GM perspective, on how to build an offense.. Emmitt= Draft Mark Ingram Irvin= Marshall.. Novacek= Sign Owen daniels or draft Lance Kendricks.. Alvin Harper.= Must look to draft are own..I have Greg Little filling that spot. Daryl Johnstone= Draft Stanley havili.. You must really want Ingram no? considering your ready to go into the season with Henne?
You call TD / INT ratio a silly stat and you say I should be embarrassed? Look up how the ratio correlates to winning and see if you still think it's a silly stat. Go back and check my stance. Never once have I made any definitive judgments on Henne. I've only stated we have a question mark at the QB position. If you disagree with that, then there's no point in talking to you. Not only does your discussion bring nothing to the table, but I find you extremely obnoxious. Having said that, I'm going to now ignore any further comments from you 1 post too late.
Please tell me you don't really believe this. Irvin was a big playmaker. Marshall is a glorified possession WR. Henne needs real weapons.
That's a decent way to think about it Deej. I'd prefer Owen Daniels (or Marcedes Lewis/Zach Miller) over Kendricks for the mere fact that Daniels is ready and Kendricks might realistically take 2-3 years to develop considering what the past 3 years worth of TEs have shown us. Little can replace Harper's value, but IMO he also has the potential to be more like Irvin than Marshall does b/c of better downfield play ability. Regardless, a 1-2 punch of Marshall-Little could be phenomenal. I know you like Havili, but I could see Owen Marecic becoming a near clone of Daryl Johnstone. A guy like our boy, Tyrod Taylor, could be an Xfactor that Dallas never had. That leaves us an upgrade at Oline away.
I'm ready to go into the season with Henne. At least I know he'll be serviceable if we upgrade the ground game and add a couple weapons at WR & TE. I can't say the same about any 1st round QB "this year". If: the Oline is healthy (with Garner back, Incognito at Center, and Jerry a year seasoned), the ground get is humpin (via Ingram or LeShoure), and Henne has more targets, then I see no reason why we can't win with Henne and progress as an offense. If we take a QB 1st and pass on Ingram or LeShoure, then we're stuck with a 3rd round pick as the only RB on this team until FA arrives, and we're left with no serious upgrades at WR/TE either. If we can't accomplish anything in FA, then we enter 2011 with a rookie QB, a potentially poor ground game, and no upgrades at WR/TE...... all of which will do nothing to help us win next year and could conceivably set us back years, just like other teams are set back after their 1st round QBs bust while ignoring other issues of the offense. However, upgrading the ground game along with adding more weapons will do nothing but leave us improved, despite having Henne at QB. Plus I think many of us are forgetting that during the first half of the year <before the Oline fell apart and Brandon, Hart, and Fasano were injured>, Henne was an 87 Rating QB right there with Flacco, Ryan, and Freeman..... and that was during the part of our schedule where we faced the toughest teams in the league. He played good enough to beat the SB Champ Packers, he was awesome during what should've been a win vs the SB runner-up Steelers, he was the only reason we had a chance to beat the AFC runner up Jets until our Special Teams fell apart, and unfortunately he never had a shot at the NFC runner-up Bears. So I at least know that we still have a shot at beating those teams if our ground game & WR/TE play are improved. I can't say the same thing about a rookie QB, especially with no improved ground game and/or improved WR/TE play. There's a reason that guys like Ryan and Flacco succeeded early on..... and that's b/c they had the talent around them and a solid ground game to allow them to succeed. Our current offense is NOT QB friendly, especially for a non-NFL ready rookie (which this crop is), and b/c Free Agency will probably come after the draft, we cant just assume that we'll pick up all the missing pieces we'll need to let a rookie succeed. Our offense around the QB needs to be fixed/upgraded before another QB is brought in here, unless that QB is a cant miss, elite, NFL-ready prospect.
If Sparano and company decide after training camp, preseason, etc. that Henne is the guy, I'll support their decision. If they come to the conclusion that he's the best option and are willing to stake their jobs on it then so be it. I have a feeling Henne will have to complete with either a drafted or FA QB.
Do you think they want to stake their jobs on a rookie who will most likely sit the bench behind Henne in 2011 when they could instead improve the ground game and add more playmakers to the offense who would improve the offense in 2011? Their jobs are on the line, and a rookie QB will NOT come in here and provide them a better chance of winning in 2011. That's not disputable. What WILL give us a better chance of winning (hence more job stability) is improving the ground game and adding more weapons who can contribute from day 1. If Ingram (or LeShoure) and Greg Little were our first 2 picks, our offense would be much better in 2011 than say Mallett and a 3rd round RB. That keeps our Cap room open to add a top TE instead of having to use $ on an elite RB (if we can even land one). Now all of a sudden we have serious upgrades at WR, TE, and RB that Henne can somewhat disappear into w/o having to be relied on game and game again. If we can find a FA to compete with Henne, then that would be beneficial, but bringing in a rookie QB when we have zero RBs on the roster, only 1 TE, and 2 reliable WRs just won't cut it. Without a 2nd round pick and FA after the draft, throwing our eggs in the basket of a rookie QB is a bad idea b/c we won't see his production for a few years, when instead that first round pick could show immediate production by improving our ground game (you know, the other half of the offense that was missing all last year...lol). If you want to draft a mid round QB, then go ahead, but that would give us 3 young QBs on the roster if we include Brandstater (when some NFL teams only carry 2 QBs). Not a good idea. Not to mention, I don't get why so many people are focused on bringing in a rookie to compete with Henne as if Brandstater doesn't exist. The fact is the kid has potential, and I'd put him up against any mid round QB this draft. Tom was pushing for the backup job in Indy, and it was probably a tough decision between him and Curtis Painter. IMO it's a waste of a pick to add a mid round QB when he likely would end up our #3. Sometimes we cant get exactly what we want when we want it, and we need to realize that patience and doing things right is more important than diving into something out of desperation. The QB doesn't make the offense; the offense makes the offense, and as such, there are multiple ways we can improve our offense next year. So there's no need to make a rash decision at QB when there are less risky ways to make sure our offense is improved. The whole "you gotta take a risk if you want a great QB" argument sounds nice, but that's complete crap IMO. We dont have to risk anything this year to improve our offense, and we can then target a less risky QB from the 2012 class b/c at least 3 of them should be more NFL ready than this current group is.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with Henne if we don't require the offense to revolve around him..... and he costs us $90 million less than Rivers, which means we can use that money on a better defense & more playmakers who can carry the burden and get the job done for us. All Chad has to do is get them the ball, which he has shown perfectly well that he can do when his line & receivers are healthy. For most of last season we asked Chad to perform like Tom Brady in nearly every facet, and that's just not fair. Having a Tom Brady means having less funds to spend elsewhere; where as having Chad Henne means having a lot of spare change devoted to more surrounding talent, so there's still "some" balance there. The money aspect makes it not entirely negative. If you have a guy like Henne, then you need to make sure the ground game is good (which it can be b/c you have more funds to spend on it), and you need to make sure the offense & surrounding cast fit his skill set (which they did not last year). If that's accomplished, then we can win with Henne, while being able to focus more energy on a dominant defense to help carry us. Last year, our team revolved around a "good defense that couldn't create turnovers" and Chad Henne, and that's it. But that's a load of garbage. It needs to revolve around a "great defense that creates turnovers", a strong ground game, and playmakers who can do something when the ball's in their hands so that not EVERYTHING falls on Henne's shoulders. If we allow Henne to be an equal contributor, then we're all good. If we continue to make him the focal piece and force him to carry the team on his shoulders, then we're setting ourselves up for problems. For what we pay him, there's absolutely no reason to rely on him being the centerpiece of this offense..... or ask him to carry a team that can't get it done as a TEAM.
I think the Cowboys model is a great example of what we should be aspiring towards. I'm thinking Holmes can be our Harper, or perhaps one of the rookies if we're lucky. I'm no a huge fa of Ingram at 15 but I think its crucial that we re-establish a run game that can create 1 on 1 matchups for our WRs and easy reads for our QB. I'm not excited about having Henne as the QB, I think Troy Aikman is his ceiling (abover average-good). But I do cringe at the idea that our struggles last year were an indictment of his play or that he is a bust. The guy's play maintained or even improved even as the supposed pillars of the offense were crumbling around him. It's too soon to just give up on him is all.
For the last time, TD/INT ratio is a drop in the bucket when it comes to evaluating a QB. It's a results based stat that tells you the who, what & when without the why or how? Did the QB throw to the wrong WR, or did the WR fall down? Was the QB late with his throw, or was the WR late out of his break? Did the QB throw a pass that was caught and run 80 yds for a TD, or was the pass caught when the WR was in the end zone already? Stats don't tell you any of that, TD/INT ratio included. It doesn't tell you how many times a team went WC once they entered scoring range, or whether or not there was an effective running game. It doesn't account for dropped TDs or dropped INTs. I could go on but if you don't get it by now then you can remain blissfully ignorant of how complicated the evaluation process of a player can be. You can call me as many names, as many obnoxious-es as you'd like. You can ignore whoever you want. But I'll continue expose you and anyone else who makes derogatory and ignorant statements about members of my team. There's a hoard of so called fans tryna turn this board into Fin-Heaven, and if I have to be obnoxious to prevent that then [video=youtube;1ZEo15ZK5wk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZEo15ZK5wk[/video]
Well it depends really on who the QB is they would draft and how NFL ready he is. See Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, etc. But I'll give you that a rookie QB probably won't give us a better chance to win in 2011. But here's what you're missing. If this front office drafts and starts a rookie QB there would probably be more allowance for a losing season. They would have rookie growing pains as an "excuse". If they roll with Henne, they really have no excuse. With the same QB and hopefully improved playmakers, they better damn well improve significantly on 2010 or risk getting canned. That's why I said if they go into next season with Henne as their starting QB I'd be confident that they saw enough in him to stake their jobs on his success. Even looking at this thing from outside the job security standpoint, it still makes sense to draft a QB at this point if you believe his upside is greater than Henne's. Especially if you do not believe Henne is good enough to win a championship. You don't stick with a guy who is just good enough if you see a guy you can get who you believe can be a great QB in the NFL. Teams that have taken that risk and made that investment are many of the past few teams we've seen in the superbowls.
His 1st TD, to Hartline at Minneasota was vs zone. His 2nd TD, to Marshall vs NY was against zone. His TD to Marshall @ NYJ was vs zone, his TD to Marshall vs Buffalo was vs zone. The TD to Moore at Oakland was vs man. Bess was doubled on his TD vs NE. Bess' TD vs Detroit was vs zone. That's 5 off the top of my head, gotta check on the rest, Ill keep you posted . If your point is to say Henne struggled vs zone, I'd agree. The whole offense struggled vs zone, Cover 2 especially. We just couldnt defeat the coverage consistently. No one could get over top of the safeties, no one could get down the seam, no one was anchoring the CBs. No running game to force teams out of the coverage. All of that adds up to tiny passing windows and a lot of high risk-low reward throws. It was bad, but not anything you can put on one player IMO.
