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Keeping Pace.....making up ground

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by 2socks, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    How do the Miami Dolphins keep pace with the New York Jets and the New England Patriots?? Better yet, how do the dolphins make up ground??

    The Jets, have one of the best defenses in the league and one of the worst QB's. The danger here is it is just a matter of time before Sanchez catches on. When or if that happens the Jets will be hard to beat.

    The patriots........well, they are the Patriots, with arguably the best coach in NFL history. They also have Tom Brady who also could be one of the best QB's of all time. The Patriots have 6 pics in the first 3 rounds of this years draft, 3 being in the first 33 pics. Did I mention they are also favored heavily to win the superbowl.

    Are Tony Sparano's days numbered meerly as a result of what division the Dolphins are in. Does the 2 year extension mean anything. After all we could be 12-4 and if the Jets and New England have better records, watch the playoffs from home.

    Just adding a QB, may make us instantly competitive but is it going to be enough to win the division. That seems like a tough road. I am not sure if any coach could get that done in this division right now. Doesn't matter who it is, Sparano, Harbaugh, Gruden, Cowher, do we really think any of these coaches could top what is in our division though???

    Where do we start fellas???
     
  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sign Paul Solai..MCD...and Cam Wake..

    Draft Mark Ingram .. Greg Little.. and Stanley havili.

    Sign Chad Greenway...and Owen Daniels..

    and never think about the other guy's at this point.
     
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  3. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Sparano is 4-2 against the Jets, and 2-4 against the Patriots.

    I don't think its as dire as we may believe. I certainly think the difference between us and the Jets is a pulling guard and a younger RB. IMHO, our defense is just as good as theirs. I think their defense has a lot more holes than ours, and that will be exploited more as time passes.

    In regards to the Pats, they certainly are the class of the NFL. I would say thats just as much a worry for any other team as it is for us.
     
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  4. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The Jets defense is very overrated, and the Jets have no cap room and are on the older side. They are built to win now.

    The Pats are the Pats, they just keep reloading, Billy B is the best at what he does, love him or hate him, he is dam good.

    We just need a better OC, and stabilize the Oline and get better QB play.
     
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  5. Auburn

    Auburn New Member

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    #1 priority is a good QB, with Brandon Marshall here especially, lets utilize his strength. I seriously would go after McNabb, he proved when he played with TO, if you give him a dominant receiver he'll do well. I would not use the #1 pick on Ingram, he is good not great. I'd bring back Ronnie Brown and sign Pierre Thomas, with the CBA in shambles you want someone who knows the offense. Sign VJACK. Now the offense has McNabb, Marshall, VJACK, Bess, Pierre and Ronnie Brown. The offense is all set and I think Pierre's ankle will be 100% by next yr.

    The D is pretty good as is, I'd draft the best possible Defensive player with the 1st and 3rd rounders. We would overtake the Jets and pose a serious threat to NE!!!

    WHO IS WITH ME!!?!?!? Anyone?

    :)
     
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  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Good question 2 Socks, to me:

    -Rely on Jeff Ireland to find those hidden gems, to me, he is our one advantage over the Jets and Patriots, though not a true equalizer as we are not the only team out panning for gems in the wilds of the Football world.

    -Improve the special teams, they have been atrocious 2 of 3 seasons under Sparano, he simply has to take them more seriously.

    -Become a background sponsor of a UFL team, no other team in the NFL has a minor leagues, we should be the first to take that step, would love a reciprocal agreement with a CFL team as the league is far far more stable than the UFL, to me this is the next real frontier of professional football as how it works now is a sort of haphazard system of player workouts for teams, why is that model still in effect?

    Think about it, Kurt Warner bounced around 3 football leagues with just mere chance allowing him to develop into a Super Bowl winning Qb, that is insane.

    -More innovation, of all of the disappointments of 2010, the death of the Wildcat was the largest one.

    -Look at maybe some 2 way players, Belicheck shocked the football world by playing Troy Brown at Cb (iirc) when he was a veteran Wr.

    Eh, just some thoughts on the matter.
     
  7. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Mcnabb is done he is not as mobile as he used to be and is not clutch qb with the game on the line.I live 15 min from philly and have been watching this guy for years.If you like a guy who will throw the ball at the recievers feet on a crossing pattern he is your guy.Philly fans were doing cartwheels when he left.
     
  8. Moves

    Moves Well-Known Member

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    I'm game if you change McNabb to Orton.
     
  9. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    love the way you think. Havili is a nice weapon out of the backfield, but again will require this regime to get with the times. There is simply no excuse not to address the TE position this offseason given what is out there. Daniels I like too but you know why he was so banged up this year? Zach Miller would be a dream scenario, and if I get really desperate I might take Scheffler. and for the love of god find an explosive punt returner.
     
  10. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    I dont know about over rated, but the Jets D certainly has no pass rush. Their OLB's are nothing special, and the D Line is getting old.
     
  11. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    Pierre Thomas is injury prone. If we had him and Ronnie as our backfield, again we have no quick score ability from that position. Those two are redundant.
     
  12. Pandarilla

    Pandarilla Purist Emeritus

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    Trade Cam Wake for 1st rounder next year.

    Trade down this year and take offensive linemen early and often.

    Take Noel Devine.

    Tank it for Luck next year.

    Don't let Ireland or Sparano trade for anyone.

    Next year will be an abomination, but at least we'll be properly reloaded to attract top coach (Nolan will be gone after next year, if not this).
     
  13. Dolphins1Beatles

    Dolphins1Beatles Ziggy Stardust

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    Sign Ricky or Ronnie because we should get a young RB, but we still need more than one RB in today's NFL. Fix the O-Line, something that has been a major issue. They've drafted 7 or 8 OLinemen since 2007 and only Long and Jerry are still around I think. That was supposed to be their specialty, guess not. And hope to find a QB through trade[whether trading for one or trading to draft up and pick one 1st round] or FA.

    It can be done in one season if they do it right. Hopefully they find a good OC.
     
  14. Auburn

    Auburn New Member

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    I'll take Orton too and I think Pierre is underrated and he was injured this year but that does not mean anything for next year?
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Those are all good moves, but consider that they will not allow us to compete for the next 3-5 yrs which is what 2Socks was looking for..I think, the Patriots have a double draft this yr, 2x #1-#4 picks, and then some, sign whomever you will, that is what our competition is doing, and they have a checkbook as well, this has to be approached with better ideas.
     
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  16. Auburn

    Auburn New Member

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    I guess with Brady there for the next 5-6 years, its best to build an O Line and get a top notch running game. So we can control the clock and keep the ball away from him. But then you're wasting Brandon Marshall sort of, unless you use him as part of the ball control mostly run oriented offense?
     
  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Simply, better coaching, better drafting, and smarter FA signings.

    The Pats have BB and have retooled half their team in 2 drafts. If we want to beat them, we need a guy who can play chess with Beli while keeping up with them talent wise. Signing lots of $20+ million FAs arent gonna cut it (especially when half of them dont pan out). Right now the Pats are years ahead of us.
     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    We will not keep pace that way TP, the Bills will have their 3rd Draft Cycle of picking Top 12, including #8 last yr and #4 this time.

    Patriots have that double draft and have enough depth to simply keep it rolling forwards, they could wind up with even more #1 picks next yr, the Jets are sort of not in this game as they are more built for today, but still, that is why the "draft" is a sucker bet as we will not be as bad as the Bills who will stockpile high pick talent, or the Pats who overwhelm with the sheer number of draft choices.

    At one time 33% of the Pats roster was made up of..UDFA's...
     
  19. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    The key is to find a QB. They are the great equalizers. And I don't mean Orton or McNabb, or even Vince Young (who I wouldn't be opposed to). We need to find a guy like Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers, Phil Rivers, heck even a Joe Flacco - someone who can win games, shoulder a team and win.

    I grudgingly admit Bellicheck is an amazing coach, but he is also buoyed by Brady being Brady. They can plug in inferior talent (Cassell) and win, but not win in the way they can with Brady. Brady and Bellicheck mask the team's deficiencies and allow them to be a powerhouse.

    Unless and until we find a QB we will not compete with them, no matter what else we do imo. The QB conundrum is paramount.
     
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  20. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Not exactly true. We must on a consistent basis be better overall to win the division. We also play them 2 times a year. So it does matter to us more
     
  21. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    a reasonable "start". It's deeper then this though guys. I am talking about having to become one of the best teams in the NFL because of who is in our division. Why do we have to do to become elite. It is not just a QB and OC. There are holes everywhere. Lets map it out for Tony and send it to him..................

    Dear Tony,...............................................signed your beloved Fans
     
  22. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    good thoughts ..........good start

    The one thing that sets the patriots apart from other teams is the system in place. It runs on auto pilot. There really are no star players on the Patriots except Brady. Those systems take average players and make them above average......what is BB doing that is different. It is obvious that the system does matter because coaches have left and implemented what they have been exposed to and have made other teams instantly better. I am really trying to figure out the fundamental differences, if anyone has any ideas????
     
  23. Auburn

    Auburn New Member

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    NE uses draft picks as currency, old Red Skins did it. Same for 49ers.

    NE also take coachable players, they said on Inside the NFL (if you have Showtime on Demand watch it) that NE takes players from two parent homes mostly, with strong father figures to ensure those players are coachable. They prefer coachable over more talented. Hence they wanted no part of Dez Bryant. They said as soon as BB noticed that Moss was no longer coachable he dealt him. Even the Inside the NFL crew loves the Patriots....sigh.
     
  24. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    If I could give you 6 fist pumps for that post I would..........:yes:
     
  25. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Whats wrong with the Irish...............This is part of it. How has BB retooled half the team in 2 drafts...............and we can not. What has he done different.

    I just do not see this Front Office being able to accomplish everything that needs to be accomplished in 3 years. So what are we really talking about...4, 5, 6 years. What is it??? Can they get it done. Because I see the following:

    Need Offensive coordinater

    Need several offensive lineman

    need offensive line depth

    need running backs

    Need starting QB....not Mcnabb or Orton or some other schmo

    Need compliment receivers to Marshall and Bess and depth. Quality depth not this **** we been getting.

    Tight end.....where do I start

    All the depth guys have to be capable of playing special teams and be good at it

    We need to replace Channing Crowder with someone who gives a crap and is fast and a leader

    We need a ball hawk safety and depth at corner, saftey and linebacker

    Some depth on the defensive line would be nice

    Did I mention another defensive linemen or two who can put pressure on the QB other then Cammeron Wake

    Also would like the team to get younger in the process

    So you guys see, this is easy not a lot to do. Should be a walk in the park!!!!!!
     
  26. Auburn

    Auburn New Member

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    Lets just catch the Jets, one step at a time.
     
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  27. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    does that come with a big sigh
     
  28. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Like I said, better coaching & better drafting. LOL. If we can't draft better than we currently do, then we won't surpass them while they're hitting on picks. Their coaches "make" the 33% FA's work....... and it doesn't matter if the Pats have 14 picks every draft if they don't get players with talent who fit their system. If they're getting more picks, then we have to hit on all of ours.

    The last 2 drafts:
    We use #25 pick on CB Vontae Davis; NE uses #27 on CB, Devin McCourtney, who makes the ProBowl his rookie year.
    Miami- #44 on Pat White; NE- #42 on Rob Gronkowski, one of the future best TEs in the NFL.
    Miami uses a 5th on TE John Nalbone; NE uses a 4th on TE Aaron Hernandez, one of the best playmaking TEs in the NFL.
    Miami- #73 on a G John Jerry; NE- #58 on a starting RT Sebastion Vollmer who can play LT.
    Miami- #87 on WR Patrick Turner; NE- #83 on playmaking WR Brandon Tate who's a fixture on their offense & return game.
    Miami- #26 on DE Jared Odrick who may never contribute; NE- #40 on Ron Brace who's becoming a starter on their Dline.
    Miami- #40 on LB Koa Misi; NE- #62 on LB Brandon Spikes (fairly even)
    2009 Free Safety: NE- Pat Chung; Miami- Chris Clemons (Chung is superior)
    2009 2nd round CB: NE- Darius Butler; Miami- Sean Smith. (fairly even)
    Other 2009 WR: NE- Taylor Price; Miami- Brian Hartline. (if Hart were on NE he would be behind Price on the depth chart)

    This isn't taking into account the undrafted FA production they're getting:
    Woodhead & Green-Ellis- 2020 yards, 19 TDs; Bess, Wallace, & Moore- 1023 yards, 6 TDs.
     
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  29. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Well, in all fairness the pats have been extremely competative, but they haven't won a Super Bowl in 6 years. And I honestly do not think they will win it this year either. Their defense has gotten a lot better as the season has gone on, but I don't think they will be able to produce as well in the playoffs.

    Throw in the FACT that BB was cheating and that may be his "edge". He's a really good coach, one of the best ever, no doubt, but you just can't tell me that his cheating wasn't enough to get those 3 extra point in those 3 Super Bowls.

    First and foremost, we need to keep getting better on defense. Make no mistakes about it, the Patriots won 3 Super Bowls because of their defense (and a little bit of cheating) the Patriots, Ravens, Giants, Bucs, Saints and Rams.....defense. Sure, a couple of those teams had good to great offenses too, but their defense was just as good or better. A lot of people love to talk about how good we were this year on defense, and claim that we were top 5 or 6, but in reality we were 14th in the league for points allowed. Decent, but not great. I can't remember who it was yesterday, I think it was John Harbaugh, and he was talking about elite defenses. He specifically mentioned that yards don't mean squat...it's all about the points. If we had a top 5 defense in the league, which this year would have meant our defense gave up around 15-17 PPG, we would have made the playoffs.


    Second, we need a new OC. I think that's obvious.

    Third, we need an offensive system that enables us to not only run the ball, but run the ball via the short pass. That's EXACTLY what the Pats do on offense. With that type of system you don't need an elite QB or elite WR's. You need smart, hard working guys. Throw in a 4.3-4.4 RB and I'd be ecstatic!
     
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  30. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    There is just no way that the pats are THAT much better at finding talent. The difference is in the system.

    Welker, when he was here was good....there he is elite. The same goes with ALL the other re-treads they have obtained from us over the years.
     
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  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    What you are missing is even "if" we are even with them on a pick for pick basis, we still lose, they have more picks.

    That is why it is sucker bet to rely on the draft as even "good" drafts are 3 starters in 7 picks, the Patriots have 12 picks.

    We have to find a different way or we will not keep pace, it really is that simple.
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    All starts with the Qb, imho people are underestimating the effect of having a competent Qb is for the entire team.

    Put it this way, since Sparano has been here we have been one of the least penalized teams, so even the UDFA's are disciplined, the problem starts with playing catchup to often, quick turnarounds by the offense, and being forced to use the ST as a minor league talent development system.

    Solve that problem, find a way to take those high draft picks who are highly physically talented and teach them without degrading the product out on the field..hence be the first to have an actual minor league football team.
     
  33. Ricky'sBong

    Ricky'sBong Reborn

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    how can you quote his post then make that comment? he laid it out in black and white. and they have a boatload of picks next year.
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    They are better at finding talent..... and they're better at getting production out of their talent..... and they find talent that fits their system rather than trying to force talent to fit their system. They understand the need for playmakers who can also be reliable. We prefer possession type guys b/c we feel they can allow us to play more "mistake free".
     
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  35. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    The first step is getting rid of henning and david lee. wait, we just did that. i would say we're on the right track.
     
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  36. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Well guess what? We both start out with 7 picks per year, so there's no excuses on our part for any of this. We need more picks or we need to hit better on the ones we get.

    Outside of "talent" and "coaching", I'm not sure there's anything significant less. I guess we could resort to cheating. :dunno:
     
  37. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, to start, looking at the talent we have on our team, I would make sure re-sign Paul Soliai, and if you can, Tony McDaniel. I have a gut feeling McDaniel won't be back.

    Secondly, you have to say some hard goodbyes. I would look at moving some of our "older" guys like Yeremiah Bell, Vernon Carey, Channing Crowder, Lousaka Polite, etc.

    Third, before we can really "address" the QB position, we've got to repair the offensive line and running game in general. I'd took a long, hard look at signing 1, 2 if you can, of the likes of Logan Mankins, Carl Nicks, Jared Gaither, Marshall Yanda, Davin Joseph on the O-line front. You have to add a playmaker in the run game, so looking at Ahmad Bradshaw, DeAngelo Williams, Leon Washington, and perhaps take a look at Le'Ron McClain as a FB prospect. Signing 2 or 3 of those guys in total should help in that area.

    Finally, you've got to figure out your plan for QB. I don't think Vince Young represents a good plan per se. He might win us some games that Henne lost last year, but in all honesty, I'd make a hard run after Matt Hasselbeck...bottom line, injuries aside, he's the best option in my eyes (plus he fits the win now aspect that I'm sure Sparano is strapped with in 2011). I'm not sold on any of the top QB prospects this year with regard to Gabbert, Newton, Locker, Mallet, etc. - I'm just not, and I'm not for giving up picks to get them. My personal option would be to try and trade back and unload the above mentioned "older" guys for picks this year AND ESPECIALLY in the 2012 draft (for a serious run at Luck - argue if you will, but it's the best course of action in my eyes for competing with the Patriots LONG-TERM in the future).

    And, as a final caveat, you've got to add some playmakers. If you can add a Mark Ingram, Kendall Hunter, Mikel LeShoure type to compliment whichever back you pickup via FA, that's a good start. Adding a receiver to compliment Marshall WITH SPEED is a must. I think you can certainly upgrade over Hartline and Davone Bess as starters. Addressing the O-line through the draft is another key. Lastly, with the draft, I think you need 1 more solid CB and/or S and another pass-rusher, whether that be a DE, OLB, ILB, etc. one more is a must.

    That's how I'd start trying to play catch-up to New England.
     
  38. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And that will never be accomplished, "we" started this race in 08, "they" started in 99, they can trade Seymour for a #1 pick, we cannot.

    No GM, not even the most brilliant in the business, hits on all 7 picks, that is 3 card monte thinking.



    "Talent", did you notice Manning made the SB with a terrible oline, and late rd pick Wr's and no running game, gosh, how?

    "They" can park #3 pick Brian Crable on their practice squad, "they" can release a #2 pick Cb, "they" can release a high 4th rd pick OLB..and not miss them.

    "They" can rely on coaching in their system simply because they have..drum roll..Contuity.."we" do not, which is why all of the screaming, and whining, and what have you is funny to me..folks want the results, they think they happen by magic.

    "Oh look, Danny Woodhead caught a dump off pass and had RAC" that is because the Pats have adjusted to what the AFCE has become in NY and Miami, large lumbering teams, now we have to adjust and move one better, cannot do that if we are firing Staff.
     
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  39. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    They have been better, but not THAT much better. It's just not possible. If we had reversed our picks and we drafted who they drafted and they drafted who we drafted we'd STILL be saying how much better their drafting has been. Not because of the players per se, but because of the system.
     
  40. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    Interesting when put the way you did.......simple but sends a very load message. David Lee, QB coach and Henning retired because he would have been the scapegoat. Just don't understand how you get rid of one of the top 5 offensive coordinators in football.

    Seems the message being sent points to the QB
     

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