Devil's Advocate Argument against signing Carson Palmer:

I still think we can be successful with Henne if he wins the starting job next year, but regardless of the #'s I'd be more comfortable going into next year with Palmer at QB.

 

Well, the thing with Palmer is adding TO was simply terrible for his play.

I'd prefer Kyle Orton over Palmer, but either way "if" Sparano survives heading into 2011 with Henne at the helm is just coaching suicide, sure Henne may turn it around, but we cannot know that will happen.

 

Orton or Palmer over the henne

 

I like Henne's upside too, but Palmer seems like he would be able to come in right away and "click." I don't feel the same about Orton.

I'm much more of a Palmer fan than Orton.

 

Well, the thing with Palmer is we'd also have to shed some guys to pay for his salary, his 10.5 millie (have heard 9.5 bonus and 2 in salary) would have to come from somewhere..ala Crowder and Carey and the savings from trading the draft pick.

I've been seriously thinking about looking into a thread that hinges on the "Who" Ireland could sign cheaply and would help from Day 1 as "if" Sparano is kept, to then just write the checks seems unlikely to happen so Irish will have to hit the bargain bin as Soliai and McD and Richie I are all also up for new contracts..how much cash is there to go around to sign them?

Trading for Palmer should also be looked at from a financial point of view and how it would effect the entire roster.

 

I just think Orton has some Drew Brees in him.

As for TP's premise, that is one of the problems with Stats, they tell a part of the story, not the whole story, for example Palmer has 11 int's on targets of TO..11...

 

If you do not have a Qb, you have nothing, everything else pales in importance, the Dolphins have learned this lesson the hard way.

And the patriots do not allow their top talent to walk without grabbing some draft picks for them, Mankins is the #2 fantasy behind Andrew Luck.

 

BM is nothing like TO for a start, secondly Palmer is also not adverse to throwing the ball up for a Wr to go get which would make BM more effective in the red zone imho.

I prefer Orton simply because he is younger, has no history of catastrophic injuries and has a lesser dollar amount attached to his contract, though it would make sense to package Henne in a trade for Palmer, the Broncos would figure to have no interest in Henne.

 

Sorry fellas but I feel your underestimating Palmer big time. Sure he has had some issues but he has been in the soap opera that is Cinncy....there isn't a throw he can't make or a system he can't flourish in.

 

And I think that's a very reasonable position. The only issues I would really have with that are 1) how much do we have to pay him and 2) what if Henne beats him out. But I can understand the appeal of Palmer.

I honestly think Henne will have a good offseason. When all is said and done, I still think he progressed this season rather than regressed. If he had been given any help whatsoever on offense over the course of the season, I really don't think his or our numbers would look nearly as bad. We won some tough games this season, and we lost some tough games this season. And teams that were supposed to be cupcakes ended up surprising. All in all, I'm not all that down on how things went considering we are 1) tied for 28th in rushing TDs with 8 and 2) tied for 30th in takeaways. I consider those to be two very important stats for our team. We failed miserably at both of them.

I think the turnovers will work itself out. We're talking about a Top 5 defense that can best be described as a hatchling at the moment, both in terms of youth in personnel and in terms of time in Mike Nolan's system. The experience, confidence, and discipline will get there. I trust that. Where I think we need a more drastic approach is in the run game. Get the line sorted out. Get some speed (Kory Sheets?). And get a new stud with younger legs than Brown and Williams (Mark Ingram?).

And I hope we move on a new OC early. I want someone in there early who can immediately be working with Henne and later with Palmer or whoever else is ultimately brought in to compete.

 

Didn't Orton specifically say he wants to go to a team where he will be a starter no doubt?
I bet Palmer would be the same.

 

I don't have an issue with either. If Henne wins out, that would be a good position for us. As to #1, I would only be concerned about it if #2 came to fruition.

My main concern would be how would we acquire him. Ideally Cincy won't want his contract, and they cut him loose. However, I'd imagine they'd try and trade him for something before that happens.

 

That's how I feel about him.

Give him a good running game here (not what we had this year), and I have very little doubt he'd make us into a contender.

 

I really don't want to see Palmer. Orton in a heartbeat.

 

Orton looked bad before Mcdaniels, not to say he sucks but the system was good

 

This is one reason McDaniels is my #1 want as OC. I think he could help our QB situation a ton (same for Charlie Weis) regardless of how much talent we may actually have back there (for the record I think we have a passable amount).

 

http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?52862-2011-draft-prospects&p=1379777&viewfull=1#post1379777

Tough to know how I feel about that so far out from the draft, but if it were to cost us Ingram, for instance, I'd hope that we really got a damn good football player in the 2nd. It seems to be a pretty crap year for TEs. So maybe we grab one of those WRs for our new OC who happens to like 3 and 4 WR sets? Or is there a RB that I could stomach, even with my man crush on Ingram? Maybe.

 

I really think that you're thinking of the old Palmer because that just isn't true anymore. I think at this point he wouldn't give us an arm much stronger than Pennington's in 2008, which most complained about. If you watch palmers throws to the sidelines there's just way too much air under them.

Bottomline I would gladly have the old Palmer, but this new version is really underwhelming.

 

Well, we can think Palmer will be traded, but if there is a shake up in Cinci, the new HC may want him, Orton is sure to be traded as Denver is in full on Rebuilding mode and they have Tebow already.

Either way though, I do not value draft picks as much as I value solutions, whomever they go after I desire no excuses to be made, just land the solution and do not over value the draft choices or contract it takes to get it done.

my .02, we should package Henne and our 1st for the bengals 2nd and a 5th if they identify Palmer as "the guy", resign Thigpen, draft a developmental Qb though truth be told Brandstater is an interesting prospect imho.

Bengals would receive:

-Starting Qb while Cam Newton develops
-second #1 pick
-Palmer's contract is off of the books

Dolphins would receive:

-Starting caliber Qb
-basically a late #1 pick as once you get around pick #29 there is not a whole lot of difference in talent between the #29 pick and the #37 pick the bengals have.

 

Does your desire to have McDaniels override your desire to have Nolan, or to keep Marshall well behaved? Not saying that either of these things would be affected, but it's certainly a possibility.

 

I'd rather have Nolan and Marshall than McDaniels, but the two don't seem at all mutually exclusive.

 

You really can't see why nolan and Marshall wouldn't want to work with mcDaniels again?

 

I'm sure his firing has humbled him, matters not because he will be in KC.

 

I could see why people bring it up, but I don't see anything that says it couldn't work. Nolan's problem seemingly was working for McDaniels (which he wouldn't be doing here). Marshall by all accounts enjoyed actually playing for McDaniels and in that offense, he was upset about his contract however.

 

I didn't know thee was a "Devils" side to play in not signing Palmer.

Please god, no to Palmer.

 

That would be the case here. You have seen what henne can and can't do. He has been the same QB for the last 7 years.

My question is what makes anyone think Cincy is getting rid of Palmer? Who do they have to replace him? Did they say he's gone?

Orton in Denver I can see because of Tebow. Especially if Tebow beats SD tomorrow. Possibly even seeing Washington saying goodbye to McNabb.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/O/OrtoKy00.htm

Interesting thing about Orton, each of the last 3 yrs his Td to int ratio has improved, starting in Chicago.

Brown apparently is going to blow up his Cinci Team.

 

Rumor in town is that Bob Bratkowski, the current offensive coordinator is the top candidate for the presumed HC vacancy (if Marvin Lewis leaves which at this point all signs point to him being gone), which I think would keep Palmer around. But even that doesn't matter as ultimately the decision is going to rest with Mike Brown, who already loves Carson, and Carson might have just played his way into sticking around in Cincinnati regardless of his salary.

As for the shakeup, the most talked about names of players that will be gone, or won't be re-signed are:

Cedric Benson
Terrell Owens
Chad Ochocinco
Dhani Jones
Andre Smith
Robert Geathers

 

It's pure speculation at this point really. Carson has like the highest QB salary going into next year, and the owner is pretty notoriously cheap. Factor that in with the product on the field, and why would they pay so much when they could likely win just as many games (or close) with someone much cheaper at QB.

 

Hmm, would not surprise me if Zimmer is bumped over Bratkowski.

My theory for this move is:

Mike Brown will draft Cam Newton making Qb the most expensive position on his team and he will try to avoid that situation via trading Palmer and finding a Veteran to play who can play care taker whilst Newton learns the rudiments of a NFL offense, that is where Chad Henne steps in.

 

Nineteen teams in the NFL are currently averaging 4 or more yards per carry. Nineteen. And I'm pretty sure all of them still pass the ball. So . . . yeah. Great point.

 

Bratkowski has been in Cincinnati the longest of their assistants. The other hot name is Hue Jackson, the current Raiders OC, who was the Bengals WR coach in 2004-06 (might have those years wrong, but he was here). That's just how Brown has traditionally operated, and Bratkowski is more apt to play good soldier. Brown views being a head coach in the NFL as "there's only 32 guys who have this job, be fortunate you have it" rather than doing what needs to be done to help that coach succeed.

As for drafting Newton, I just don't see it. Not in Cincinnati and not the way Brown operates. I think he'll do whatever it takes to keep Carson, barring hell freezing over and Brown relinquishing control of football operations to a GM or HC. It'd have to be a pretty sweet trade for him to do it. He loves Carson.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4788055

If you remember Brandon Marshall and McDaniels squared off on issues outside of strictly contractual stuff.