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Hennes lack of progress

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by bcfinfan, Dec 26, 2010.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Ginn did win two games for us with big plays though, all in all he gave us more than Quinn would have so to me I view it as a push.

    We need more Ginn types on offense Aqua.
     
  2. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    What sport?:shifty:
     
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  3. Phinperor

    Phinperor formerly In_Flames Luxury Box

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    I've been a known Henne supporter, but I'm officially throwing in the towel...playcalling is one thing but mental mistakes is another...I can honestly say now that I don't believe he is the answer or the one to lead this team, so the ongoing search for Marino's replacement continues...
     
  4. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Henne has 295 completions this year, not 5 completions. Please tell me where all these big plays are. I certainly don't recall seeing hardly ANY out of those 295 completions. It's not b/c of Henne; it's b/c we severely lack playmakers who can do anything once they have the ball. That's 295 opportunities of chunk yardage plays that pretty much fall to the wayside.
    much of that came on 1 play. The key to a successful running game is consistency throughout the game, and we don't have that. Popping 1 big play doesn't qualify.

    so let me understand this:
    A. Where are all these wide open guys you're referring to?
    B. You're saying to not throw the ball if they're covered, yet at the same time posters are getting mad for checkdowns, thrown away passes, and tucking and running frequently. People need to make up their mind.
     
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  5. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can't be serious with this?

    I have my mind made up about the guy based on what I've seen. That is my opinion. What is wrong with that? Is it because it doesn't agree with yours?

    What is the difference between my opinion of Henne not being the guy and your opinion that it is the Offensive Coordinator and the Personnel? Nothing! You believe the error is within those, I believe the error is within the QB.

    You don't debate objectively. You debate just as anyone else does.


    Don't confuse the word bias. Bias is the preference or inclination, especially one that inhibits impartial judgment.

    What bias do I have against Chad Henne? I don't like Tyler Thigpen. I don't like Dan Henning. I don't wish the guy to do poorly because I want to be right. I don't wish the guy to do poorly because I want someone to win. So, how am I biased against Chad Henne? What is causing me to be impartial? I don't like Chad Henne based on what I've seen in the games I've watched LIVE and on TV. There is no preference there.

    I'm vehemently laying false blame, so that gives you the right to be a d!ck? I mean did you proofread that and check that? Because I don't agree with your opinion about a player, on a message board, as a person you've never met, that gives you the excuse to be a d!ck. WOW, man.

    Also, I'm not the guy resorting to personal attacks. Maybe the personal vehemently laying false blame is you...like the fact that I don't watch the games or know what the hell it is I'm talking about.

    By the way, it was not me that made the attack that you don't know what you're talking about with baseball and that you shouldn't argue baseball with me. That was another poster. I made reference to that, because you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA about my credentials in regards to football. I could be someone that played the game at a high level, coached the game at a high level, etc. OR I could be a guy that played college baseball and because of that I can lay claim that I'm much more intelligent in the topic.

    Also, whether I'm biased or not, have credentials in the subject matter or not, fan or not, my views and opinions should be respected no matter. I think what you meant to say is because I don't agree with yours and because I have a hard stance, opinionated sure, then there is no need to understand, listen, and respect those.
     
  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Hmm a DBess fall down?

    They went 3 wides and Henne was killing it even his throw to Bess was the proper one.

    The other great thing about attacking is..us fans love it, what pissed us off more, the pick 6 or the swing pass to Ronnie Brown with 19 seconds left at the Lions 28 yd line?
     
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  7. Phinperor

    Phinperor formerly In_Flames Luxury Box

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    ...not talking about this one game Pad, but his progression overall...and I too believe this regime has buried him
     
  8. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm talking about the plays that haven't been made. Like today, a surefire touchdown on a wonderful play-call, a wonderful route by Brandon Marshall, perfect pocket protection, yet a very poor throw that results in no touchdown. Furthermore, more negative plays result in no points either. If you'd like me to continue to point out those plays that we have missed I will do that for sure. Henne has good plays, I'm not debating he can't make a play. I'm debating this idea that our offense is so incapable of making a big play, when they are there to be had and for the taking but our QB fails to make the pass.

    Also, I'm not debating that we couldn't use more playmakers. What offense wouldn't want more? My argument and debate has always been my issue with the present. Those have absolutely NO EFFECT on the ability to complete the throws on big plays we've had this year. Those plays, just some, have to be made. They HAVE to.

    So, let me get this straight? You're complaining about the lack of big plays, but now you're using it in your defense on why the offense gained that much running yards? I mean seriously, can you see how this faulty? Can you not understand why it's difficult to lend any credence to agreeing with you?
     
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  9. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Go back and look at that route..... It was far from perfect. :up:
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, could be, all bets are off after a 1-7 at home record.

    Could be wrong, outside of a drop and one overthrow, Henne did not have a ball hit the ground when we were 3 wide at Wr?
     
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  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    My mind is far from made up about Henne. Only difference between you and I is that I recognize that it's not wise to lay blame on a young, still developing QB when the offense is such a mess, the OC is most likely fired, there's no ground game to help him, the playbook is designed for Penny, his personnel is the joke of the league and doesn't meet his play strength, and we're asking him to throw 35+ times per game to make up for all this crap.

    Making up one's mind on Henne is like making your mind up on an experiment when most of the variables are completely out of whack. If this were a science project, the conclusion of "fail or succeed" would have no merit. Just b/c I'm not saying Henne is a failure, you think that I'm calling him a success. I'm not. I'll judge him next year when it's even possible to judge him b/c this year it's not.... especially considering sophomore slumps in the NFL are common place.

    We can form opinions about whether or not we think the guy will succeed, but NONE of us truly know yet. It's impossible to know for certain until the other variables in the equation are addressed. If you can accurately predict Henne's future after this season, then you're a MUCH more keen & insightful person than I.

    Do you, or anyone, disagree about sophomore slumps and feel they really don't exist? I guess that's a good starting place for any Henne debate.
     
  12. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Exactly Pad.

    Lets hire Mr. "Offensive genius" who only won b/c his HOF defense carried him to a Super Bowl. His team fell apart once Sapp, Brooks, Lynch & co weren't bailing him out every week. The fans would love him. Great press conferences, funny facial expressions during games, and more mediocrity. Sounds great.
     
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  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Seeing Shuler come in has me thinking highly about what Kyle Rudolph would look like here.
     
  14. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    And again, I don't agree that you can't lay blame and form opinions on a QB that has been in the league for 3 years and has now started for 2 and there has been no progress. I can assure you that the team isn't using that as an excuse when they form there opinions on the man. I don't agree that the offense was set up for Chad Pennington. You don't draft a QB that you feel doesn't have the skill set for the offenses design. To think, whether you like them or not, Parcells, Ireland, etc. would draft a guy that has no skill set designed for the offense and you were fitting a square peg into a round hole would be thinking they are dumb and completely clueless. No doubt they are wrong and incorrect at times, but nobody does that. Chad Henne was the starter since last year and went into this season as the starter. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that they set the offense up for what they believed his strengths to be. I mean, it's factual evidence they try to stay away from the shotgun because Chad Henne has said he doesn't enjoy it. It was nice to see them break it out anyways for awhile in this game.

    I agree that personnel on that side of the ball needs to change. Whomever is the QB needs help there. But it has absolutely no effect on the missed opportunities that he's had here during the season. They are open throws that need to be made and they are not open throws that should not be made.
     
  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    So what you're saying is your accuracy at assessing a QB is flawed?:shifty:

    :tongue2:
     
  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    "Bruce Gradkowski is the next Rich Gannon!"

    Happens..every..time, what is worse, Dolfans are totally predictable when it will happen.

    It is a cycle, and bless lil nicky's heart, he is no dummy, he knew what was coming in 2007 all the tales of the wifey not liking S Florida aside.

    The though of "we want the "next" guy and not the "last" guy" never seems to dawn..in 15 yrs that has been the absolute truth of the matter..we hire a recycled coach based on what they have done, not what the can do.
     
  17. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Careful now.
    Logic = personal attack around here. :up:
     
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  18. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Those are both legitimate questions when you think that the Bucs offense is less talented than ours. Just sayin. :)

    Why would someone need to read an in depth post about how bad Henne is after you open the post with you admitting to being biased?
     
  19. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    You mean like Pat White? C'mon man.
     
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  20. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

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    It's pretty simple. We do not have playmakers in the run-game. We do not have speed to stretch the field in the passing game. This makes us very one-dimensional and especially terrible at playing from behind. If we had an effective power-run game, things might be different. The play-action might actually open things up a bit. But our power-run game has been wildly inconsistent and largely ineffective this season. The natural solution to this situation is to "open things up." Three and four wide receiver sets allow you to stretch the field more without speed while also giving you the ability to move your playmaker (Marshall) around, trying to find beneficial match-ups. Oh, and by the way, it just so happens that our quarterback plays best out of those packages. But for whatever reason, we have a head coach and an offensive coordinator who are either incapable of making those adjustments or simply refuse to do so.

    So we're left with two options. We can either bring in players to fit the coaches, or we can bring in coaches to fit the players we already have. For me, I've seen enough other deficiencies from both Sparano and Henning to think that the latter option is optimal. It appears as though there is going to be a plethora of coaches and coordinators on the market this offseason. It would seem to be an excellent time to switch things up.
     
  21. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    dude you are so ridiculous with this argument. you sound unreal
     
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  22. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You and I both know those were aimed at attacks. I could careless about that what was said. I understand you're just ticked off and passionate about that stance. Can you not comprehend what I'm trying to say? Why do you need to resort to that when that is my opinion different?

    I never stated I was biased. I said my mind was made up. Your mind is made up that it's the result of Dan Henning and personnel. There is not a difference. I never said the word biased. You inserted that word. I even gave you the definition of bias in a post above, because you clearly don't understand how it works in the context of an argument or sentence.

    If you'd like to know my reasoning why I don't believe the Bucs have that large of gap, here it is...but I'm going to assume you don't. It's not like I'm saying Chad Henne is better than Dan Marino here. There isn't that significant gap in talent or playmaking ability. I think the offensive lines are very close in talent and ability, and I think our WR grouping is better. Statistics show that, past history shows that, and because a guy is faster than our guy doesn't mean he is better. We have the most prolific WR duo in our franchise's history in terms of receptions. Not bad considering we had a guy flinging it all over the place and two guys by the name of Duper and Clayton at the time. The only difference I see is at RB and Blount is a guy that breaks off 80 yard TD runs. He's a bruiser. So I don't see the playmaker, big play moniker being applied to him. The big difference I see is with Freeman's ability to make plays with his legs and keeping plays alive compared to Henne.
     
  23. Dolphins1Beatles

    Dolphins1Beatles Ziggy Stardust

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    Dec. 26, 2010 5:38 p.m. - LB DeAndre Levy said he “jumped the route” of WR Davone Bess on the game-winning interception. Levy said of QB Chad Henne: “I saw him eyeing it the whole time.” Lions RapidReports

    Every time we lose it's the same reason. Henne is the worst rated 4th quarter QB this season.
     
  24. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Uh, Wildcat? That is what they drafted him for and it didn't work. They had a clear plan for Pat White. A CLEAR plan. It failed miserably. However, to say they drafted a guy without the idea that he could work within their offense is wrong. He ran the spread, he ran the ball, and they thought they could translate that to the NFL. He couldn't.
     
  25. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, I'd LOVE to see his perfect route then. Because he had 3 steps on the DB today. Maybe he'd have 6 on the DB if it was perfect, but then again I still have no confidence Henne hits him...a la Brian Hartline against the Browns.

    Please, please tell me you aren't trying to blame the route on to why Henne didn't complete that pass...that's insanity
     
  26. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    The henne talk is getting old but one thing i would bet on is a new coach will either draft or bring in his own qb to be the starter on this team next year.
    I have not heard to many people outside of this site exactly endorsing henne as the staring qb for the phins in the future.
     
  27. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    Marshall isn't good with deep separation. He knew he didn't get to where he had to be on that ball. His reaction said it all.
     
  28. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    They drafted a guy who lacked the skillset to play in the spread, WC, or anywhere else. That's why he's out of the league after one year. So your earlier statement that they'd never draft a QB yada yada is wrong, period. If you can't admit that then...
     
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  29. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I disagree. I thought his reaction was more or less disappointment that it wasn't a completed ball.
     
  30. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    We've conceded that Henne misses deep balls. Misses Marshall, misses Hartline. The point is, our WRs lack the speed/play making ability to create big plays on their own so you have to blame both parties for the lack of chunk yds.
     
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  31. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I thought he was reacting to seeing his wife was in the stands wearing a Calvin Johnson jersey. What does it matter?
     
  32. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You can't even remember what I said.

    I'll remind you. I stated that they drafted Chad Henne believe that his skills would be a good skillset for what their offense was set up to be. That was in defense that this idea they are running "Pennington's offense" isn't correct. They drafted Chad Henne because what they had seen in him matched up with what they believed to be a good fit for their offense. I then elaborated by saying that a general statement in no GM drafts a QB without believing their skillset works for their system. They draft guys with skills they believe translate to their offense. That's what I said.

    I then used Pat White as example because they did draft him with that intent. He ran the spread offense in college, he was a running QB and our personnel guys were wrong. They believed he could provide a throwing option from the Wildcat while still having that run option. How is that incorrect? He had skills they believed would translate into that offensive scheme it didn't. They didn't try to fit a "square peg into a round hole".
     
  33. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Again, you're not understanding my argument. Please read all of posts within this thread. I've conceded that we can use playmakers. However, that doesn't mean a hill of beans when I'm evaluating the guy this year. Having more playmakers doesn't mean he can't hit an open Brandon Marshall today. What does adding Kellen Winslow or Reggie Wayne or Adrian Peterson have to do with another missed ball to Brandon Marshall? Absolutely nothing. I'm evaluating Chad Henne on the missed opportunities this year.

    No doubt about it I blame the fact we aren't a dynamic offense on the fact we don't have a RB that has that ability and other things. But again, just looking at the QB, that doesn't give him the excuse for missing those plays. Not just missing those plays, but missing all of those plays. Not just missing all of those plays, but missing them bad and not allowing those guys to even have the chance to make the play.
     
  34. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    C'mon dude. We disagree on how we feel about a damn player on our favorite football team. It's not like we disagree about our children marrying each other here. There's absolutely no reason for any animosity. Let's keep some perspective here.

    Look at the post I was replying to. He said Marshall's reaction was proving that he didn't run a good route, thus the over-throw and incompletion. I had a different opinion that his reaction was one of disappointment at a missed opportunity because he was open and Chad Henne didn't make the play.

    Seriously...
     
  35. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    LOL. Ok dude. I give up.
     
  36. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'll sum up Henne. He's an obviously a talented QB. There's no denying that he has talent. At times looks like he could become a top 10 QB, while at other times makes us question whether or not he'll ever crack the top 20. There are entirely TOO many question marks surrounding our ENTIRE offense and coaching staff to make an accurate decision about which way Chad will turn out.

    How do you address this? IMO You go into 2011 with Chad as the "penciled in" starter and wanting to see what he does after having: an entire offseason of working on zone coverage, a new OC, upgraded line, improved ground game, and a few playmakers added on offense. You bring in a vet to challenge him (and also possibly draft a guy in the mid rounds too), but you don't hastily jump the gun on a 1st round QB till the offense is more established and you know exactly the kind of QB you need to bring in. The absolute worst thing we could do is draft a QB in the first round solely b/c we're desperate to find a franchise signal caller.
     
  37. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    We do disagree on the play but I appreciate you doing it with class. I had a totally different perspective. Initially I thought Henne missed him badly. After watching again I saw it differently when looking at Marshall's break. I won't keep hammering at you but you handled it well with your opinion. I'm cool with that.
     
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  38. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    For the record, I'm not trying to have animosity. If you feel Henne isn't the answer, that's fine with me. It's probably the most likely truth anyways (most QBs aren't the answer for example).

    I don't think the book is closed on Henne, but the pages have seemingly been falling out recently. Sometimes the calls just make me shake my head, and I don't even have a problem with blaming Henne for failing to hit passes deep (it is 60% his fault at worst most of the time since he can actually control the ball), but I do hate that he really only seems to get one chance a game. I don't feel he has been coached correctly in a number of ways, and maybe that has ruined him for good. Maybe not. I don't even have a problem with the offense being put on his shoulders despite him being young, and I don't even mind him failing really, because eventually it will need to be able to be on his shoulders and he needs to learn how to handle things when things are going poorly (and I imagine they couldn't get much poorer for him right now). I'm not even thinking he's the answer either, but I do think he has the ability to be in the right situation (different OC, and maybe different coach). Obviously things (his play) will have to improve dramatically for me to feel more comfortable about him (I want us to bring in competition at worst in the offseason), but I do see improvement in him from last year, even if it isn't dramatic. That's enough for me to not write him off completely, especially since even back-up QBs who can win 50% of the time aren't even the easiest thing to find (as evidenced by some QBs we've had here).
     
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  39. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    You cant separate a QBs production from the abilities of his WRs. You cant ACCURATELY gauge a QB's performance without taking into account who he's throwing/handing off to & being protected by. Its like saying it doesn't matter how much pressure the OL allows, I only want to talk about how often the QB is sacked. Its silly. You're purposely framing the discussion in a way that supports whatever conclusion you've already reached in your head, that Henne sucks I suppose. But your argument/logic is weak, and that's why people are disagreeing with you. Its not because we don't "understand".

    I'll tell you what adding Kellen Winslow means. It means being able to attack the seams of a Cover 2 which we've struggled to do all year. Adding A.P. means getting 8 yds instead of 5, 15 yds instead of 7, 50 yds instead of 15. It means we can force teams to stop playing Cover 2 so that Brandon Marshall has more than ONE chance to get deep. It means we dont have to ask our young QB to throw the ball 44 times in a game where we were close, tied, or ahead for the whole game. This coming a week after we had him to throw 42 times in similar circumstances. Since we can agree that we have a dearth of explosive playmakers and an average at best QB, then you should be able to understand that putting the game on said QB's shoulders is a recipe for losing. If you cant see it, you haven't been watching the games.
     
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  40. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

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    An extremely reasonable take on things. Great post.
     

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