1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Advanced Scout thoughts on Chad Henne

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    No. I read what you said. I just don't see the same clips of Marshall that you apparently do. In fact, the specific play you describe is the antithesis of the kind of plays I remember seeing in both highlight reels and while watching Broncos games over the years.
     
  2. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

    10,281
    5,232
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Back in Miami
    I am now fully on board with extending potential blame for the offensive meltdown on the coaching side from Henning alone to Sparano. It may very well be Sparano forcing his conservative value onto Henning. I feel everyone but Nolan should go on the coaching side personally.



    We probably see eye to eye here.
    While I fully support keeping Henne and continuing to work with him to develop what talent he has and attempting to overcome his issues, I don't condone Henne being "handed" the job next year at all.

    Bringing in a vet to compete with is a great idea but who?
    I'm just not excited with Palmer like you are.
    The guy is a shell of his former self.
    If he's all we can get then I'm not against it but I don't believe hes much of a step up either.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  3. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

    3,415
    1,557
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    So my question becomes "Why does it shock you that anyone playing secondary in the NFL says that our passing plays are predictable?"
     
    Stringer Bell likes this.
  4. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    If those are his numbers after another year under his belt, and the addition of a Brandon Marshall, then yes, I'd call it a regression. We can place the blame anywhere we want, but that's a regression.
     
    Stringer Bell likes this.
  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Well, here is an example where it is not coaching:

    pats game, Marshall is running a crossing route, we are down 20 pts, S Chung reads the route and sprints forwards, BM reads it, Henne does not and throw the ball to the spot where BM was supposed to be, Henne never saw him break off the route and threw the pick 6.

    Bills game, Marshall has a pump route called, the second one that day, Db bltizes so Marshall turns his route upfield, the Oline picked up the blitz, but Henne never saw the blitzer coming and..threw the pump route anyway...

    THAT is Chad Henne, route adjustments simply do not exist for him, the ball goes "there" for "this" play..no matter what...





    Well Palmer or Orton are just on the radar, there are actually some good, lower cost options this FA period, especially with the number of Qb's who will be taken this draft, and with the guys like Palmer and McNabb and Alex Smith and Shaun Hill walking the street as one guy brought in means another one cut lose.

    Eh, long offseason in the NFL, personally I'd lock up a Qb before the labor strife, but that is just me, even if that means *gasp* trading draft choices!!!
     
    Nappy Roots likes this.
  6. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

    21,755
    3,475
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    Oviedo FL
    15 pages of this?..................really?
     
    Nappy Roots, BicketyBam and padre31 like this.
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Because in Miami, Quarterback and Wr issues cause us fans to go mental, turn into internet werewolves and proceed to pound the heck out one another over the internet.

    That is the Miami Way.
     
  8. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

    10,281
    5,232
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Back in Miami

    Because a lot of teams work hard to use different formations, motion, shifts, etc. to disguise the same plays for the sole purpose of defenses not being able to consistently predict what their offense is going to do.

    If your staff thinks it's fine to simply line up and play at the NFL level with the talent level being so comparable it's negligence to a monumental degree.

    That's why.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I see a lot of straw men in this thread.
     
    Frayser likes this.
  10. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

    388
    405
    0
    Aug 8, 2010
    Its not a shock, its just an annoying aspect.
     
    Zod likes this.
  11. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    Where, I don't see any.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

    3,415
    1,557
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Obviously you missed my previous post. Even when you use those methods (not that I'm saying we do not) you still end up running Universal Patterns.
     
  13. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

    10,281
    5,232
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Back in Miami
    I didn't miss it at all.
    You are overvaluing what you stated greatly.

    Am I to really believe that there is nothing you can do to disguise plays and routes?
    That is exactly what you are trying to forward and I can tell you it's horse puckey.
     
    ToddsPhins and Frayser like this.
  14. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Well Im sure Ill hear how a Hall of Fame player like Ron Woodson doesnt know anything about Qb's...

    But on tonights Finsiders he was asked about Henne. He said he thought players beed 3-4 years to play at their optimal level...and that he thought Henne was inconsistent, but hes on the right path to being a very good Qb. He said he's seen flashes of what Henne could be like..but needs more time and work.

    Like I said...take it for what its worth
     
  15. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    Absolutely. The kid at least deserves a shot under a new OC. And I would hope that we'd get him another weapon, at least somewhere, with perhaps one solid upgrade to the offensive line. But even for those that disagree that he deserves that shot, I just don't see who is going to come in here and take it from him. What, exactly, has Kyle Orton done when he's not been in a Josh McDaniels offense? You'd have an easier time convincing me that Palmer or McNabb could come in here and win a championship in the next two years with this defense. But even if I thought their chances approached what I might consider legitimate, they'd still have the problem of being mere stop-gaps. Does Kevin Kolb offer us anything more than Henne for the price we would have to pay for him? Hell, I'd have nothing against having Henne and Kolb duke it out in preseason, but we have work to do in the draft. Dealing away picks for training camp competition is a luxury we cannot afford. And is any guy in the draft going to come in and dethrone Henne? I don't see it happening, particularly if it takes our first round pick and possibly more, leaving us with less ammunition to deal with other holes.

    I think the pragmatic approach is to enter the offseason from the perspective that Chad Henne is, more than likely, our starting quarterback and to do what is necessary to allow him to succeed. And to me, that means departing ways with Sparano, Henning, and even Lee for a whole new staff hand-picked for Chad Henne. That's why I like Gruden. That's why I like John Ramsdell. Give Henne a new staff and a new system better-suited to him. Use free agency and the draft to give him another weapon in the passing game and solidify the run game. You do those things, and I have all the confidence in the world that the kid will silence a majority of his critics.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  16. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

    6,359
    1,671
    0
    Mar 23, 2008
    Los Angeles
    It's possible that he turns it around. He's a bit shell-shocked right now. A running game would change things for him. Miami's is 28th in the league. Dan Henning is a moron that's true. On the other hand Kyle Orton did well in Chicago with nothing around him in a different offense.

    Only reason to keep is Henne is if you figure that Henne+8m or so in spending is better than Palmer, McNabb, or Orton. It's not a far-fetched argument but I do think that Orton is better than him regardless. I just think he's healthier than Palmer, Orton has had an easier schedule to play against, and McNabb is out of shape and beat up. That's his advantage. He's 25 in his third year and is improving. Orton is a finished product. He doesn't have much left to him other than putting him in a better situation. Henne needs a new quarterbacks coach. That I have no doubt of. Will he turn it around with that I don't honestly know.
     
    ToddsPhins likes this.
  17. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL

    Thats similar to what they said about him at Michigan...He never got better. he just simply has not progressed. theres a reason, his problems are not physical, their mental. Welcome to life of having Chad Henne as your QB..it wont get better. It really wont.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

    3,415
    1,557
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    Overstating? The accusation was about predictability. I gave you a formula to make every route combination predictable. And rather than provide examples that make it false, you gave me "overstating."

    No, what you are really to believe is that there are route combinations designed to attack Cover 3. And no matter how predictable those route combination are the allocation or dispersement of defenders was the target of attack.

    But what you have suggested "Stems, Motion, and formations" - changes absolutely nothing about a play being run. Moreover, those techniques are used in the NFL primarily for the defense to disclose their final alignment. Which will give the QB a clue as to what coverage he will see during the play. But that only works in certain situations. For instance, if a team is showing TWO SAFETIES and they never get out of two safeties - there isn't very must reason to get the defense to disclose more because they will not move. They are already in position to defense everything that you are doing (in your passing game) with some degree of strength. That is the genius of Cover 2. But in other cases you can do damage to the QB read. If you motion OUT of triple or quad receivers you may very well change the entire coverage. You didn't show the quarterback anything. Similarly if you motion INTO triple or quad receivers, you may get the defense to change INTO something you want to attack. But most of the time that you motion in and out of trips and quads (in the NFL) you just get Cover 2.

    You move around when teams are using man coverages. You move around so they will show you if they are zone droppers or following men. You move around to get them to show the rush. When they show the rush, the QB can get some idea of how the coverage will rotate when utilizing zone blitz.

    Horse Puckey? That isn't what I have provided. What I have provided is the code to make route patterns predictable for one position in one coverage. You gave me Horse Puckey.
     
    Stringer Bell likes this.
  19. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

    3,415
    1,557
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    He was thrown under the Peter King bus this morning on Sirius. Peter King says, "He has shown that he is not starter in the league. Sorry kid, not right now. I still like Chad Henne. I still want a guy like Chad Henne on my team. But he isn't a starter now and he has shown that he needs to sit and watch. I beleive Tony Sparano will be bringing in some guys to compete for the job."
     
  20. Jaj

    Jaj Registered

    6,359
    1,671
    0
    Mar 23, 2008
    Los Angeles
    He had a severe injury in his senior year that hurt him quite a bit as far as numbers. I just have a feeling he'll still be here next year just based off of the fact that perhaps Orton may not be traded for, Palmer hasn't been any better at all than Henne, and McNabb is a mess plus a rookie QB won't be better. I guess you just have to do your best with him, much as the Jets do with Sanchez. I'll admit one thing about Henne, even with his all his flaws keeping him lets you produce quite a team. Probably Miami's most talented team in recent memory. Getting another quarterback costs 8m a year. I think you could do something special with this free agency and draft. Question is would Henne with an excellent line, very good WRs, a good mix of different RBs, and two solid TEs be able to take you to the playoffs (not to mention a top defense, repaired STs). He'd have to be one of the worst quarterbacks I've seen in a while not to.
     
    Frayser likes this.
  21. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    26,254
    17,386
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Orlando
    What makes you think jon Gruden wants anything to do with Chad Henne?

    Your "pragmatic approach" is insane. If you're hiring a new coach, you don't put stipulations on him that he must play chad Henne and cater the offense to his strengths (whatever those are, I'm still looking for them)
     
  22. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

    37,392
    14,745
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    new york ciity
    although I too have faith that Henne is on the right path and will eventually succeed, I can't possibly support building a team around such a question mark. We build the offense to reflect the offensive team we want to be regardless of whether Henne succeeds in developing or not. You build teams around pro bowl players or philosophies, not question marks
     
    Stitches likes this.
  23. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    Both of you are reading far too much into my desiring to bring in an offensive staff catered to Henne. I'm not suggesting that the staff be so married to the kid that they're incapable of running an offense under any other guy. But Henne has a style, and we should suit the new offensive staff to that style. If Henne doesn't work out, we can still go out and find a QB to work in that system.

    But I do appreciate my idea being called "insane." Nice to see we're keeping the level of discourse here at such a high level.
     
    CaribPhin and ToddsPhins like this.
  24. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    26,254
    17,386
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Orlando
    I apologize for using the term "insane", I meant no disrespect to you. So again, I'm sorry.

    But it makes no sense to bind any new coach to Henne. Espescially because I still have no idea what system what fit his skills. He's a strong armed guy who is afraid to throw deep and when he does he has no accuracy. I don't know what system fits such a player
     
  25. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    Tell me who the new OC is....and then I will tell you their attitude regarding Chad Henne and his value to our success in 2011. Any decision on Henne is dependent on the staff.

    Once the domino falls we can really see the impact.
     
  26. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

    10,488
    12,821
    113
    Nov 1, 2009
    You mean like building a team around a solid veteran like Pennington, and then teaching a young QB with a strong arm to forget everything he knows about football and play exactly like Penny? It was a great philosophy when we were winning on field goals and everyone was happy, but those 3 yard dump passes just do not cut it when you're down by 14.
     
    GMJohnson and ToddsPhins like this.
  27. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    6,066
    3,436
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY

    Style? What style? If you`re referring to an emotionless average QB, then yes Henne has style all his own.
     
  28. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

    388
    405
    0
    Aug 8, 2010
    Spacing Offense.

    [video=youtube;uygjoeTs9rw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uygjoeTs9rw[/video]
     
    GMJohnson likes this.
  29. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I want an OC that is willing and able to adapt his offense to his talent and develop a young QB. I hope and expect that we bring in another QB option b/c Henne is a question mark. But I do still believe he is a question mark. Some have decided that Henne is and will always be what he was this season. But the offense he was in, the play calling for most of the year, etc. was so bad that IMO no QB was likely to succeed. I was never in the "Henne will be great" camp. In fact, I was against his drafting, but he has clearly shown development in areas I did not expect. And he did that despite being castrated by the coaching staff. I have no idea if Henne will ever come back from that, but whether he will or not when placed in a situation with more likelihood for success is still a question to be answered. I don't see many great QB alternatives going forward. I don't expect that Orton will be available and I see his upside as limited anyways. I can believe that Palmer will be available just b/c Cincy has always been such a cheap organization. But my gut says that he's on the downside and on the verge of falling apart. He reminds of the Culpepper situation a bit in that he may never again be what he once was. And unlike Culpepper, the recent past seems to have an even smaller upside. In the draft I see Luck and a bunch of question marks. I don't see anybody worth going all in for unless Luck somehow drops in the draft. But unless some Miami fan convinces Luck to form a dog fighting ring, I don't see that happening. So we'll most likely be stuck with a question mark in Henne and hopefully one other question mark. If that question mark is a draft pick then realistically he won't be ready for a year or two. The few QBs who come out and excel immediately are almost always top 5 picks and we don't have any of those. Therefore, we need an OC that can adapt to whatever question mark we have and its very likely that at least one of those question marks will be Henne.
     
    NJFINSFAN1, Frayser and ToddsPhins like this.
  30. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Uh oh..... don't say any of that, Raf. Pretty soon you'll be called a Henne lover. :shifty:
     
  31. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    Once again, you are fixated on the wrong thing. Why is it binding a new coaching staff to select them, in part, on their ability to work with the QB we have on the roster and who will likely be the starter next year? Would you rather bring in guys that are going to run a system to which Henne is clearly not suited?

    You're so right! I finally see it clearly! Thank you thank you thank you.

    Exactly. Great post. Even though we disagreed on our initial beliefs about Henne, I couldn't agree more with this analysis.
     
  32. NJFINSFAN1

    NJFINSFAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    17,358
    9,641
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    Northwest New Jersey
    I agree with Frayser, I would love to see what Henne could do with a good OC that actually would use his strengths.

    But I fear he will never get a chance because the Fans will be on him after every mistake just like Ted Ginn.

    I'm still shaking my head over that 4th quarter call (Henne throws an incomplete while we are driving, 2nd and 10 we call a wildcat play????????)
     
  33. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    26,254
    17,386
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Orlando
    I want to bring in the best coach, period. If the guy Ross wants to hire says Henne sucks, then you hire him and get rid of Henne.

    I'm still trying to figure out what system exactly that Henne will excel in.
     
  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    yup. You think he misses Manningham? Or how about Braylon Edwards? These are the guys he needs who fit his skill set.


    Here's a clip of Braylon Edwards. Notice who his freshman QB is starting around the 7:05 mark.

    This is for all the members who speak about Henne not having any balls to throw it up to Marshall. He doesn't have any balls NOW b/c this regime took em away from him. Like I said, Chad's a gunslinger. He needs a big vertical threat and guys who can create space so he can use that arm of his (much in the same way that Aaron Rodgers can use his). I'm sorry, but Brian Hartline is NOT a vertical threat. He can't do any of the things downfield that Edwards can. Marshall is NOT a vertical threat either b/c he lacks long speed, which is why he wasn't drafted early.

    If Marshall had long speed, then Hartline would be ok as our #2...... but since he doesn't, that makes TWO guys on the outside who are NOT legitimate downfield targets. Henne NEEDS a vertical target the same way that Ronnie Brown needs a hole to run through. And please don't say that Hartline can get open downfield, b/c that is ENTIRELY different than being a downfield threat.

    [video=youtube;zcSFN-7OUzc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcSFN-7OUzc[/video]
     
    Frayser likes this.
  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    Exactly. We've yet to give him the tools he needs to succeed or the system to allow him to do so........ but b/c he's not performing well, I guess that's reason to never allow him the chance to succeed or to develop the offense around him. This is so backwards it's not even funny! If we had done it right from the beginning, we would've done everything to make this Henne's offense like Atlanta did for Ryan, Ravens did for Flacco, and NY did for Snachez, but we didn't. No QB will succeed when his entire stay here is made to seem like an afterthought. It's ridiculous.
     
    GMJohnson and Frayser like this.
  36. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Still have yet to see a single clip with Henne looking off a safety.
     
  37. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

    37,392
    14,745
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    new york ciity
    all you have to see is the over the top ridiculous reaction by fans to being 7-7 to understand why the coaching staff would rather be safe with Henne at this stage. If they were to have him throw it around like he's tom brady or peyton we would probably be 4-10 like the lions. having henne wing the ball all over the place would sacrifice wins. And I'm sure the fans and the media would be perfectly fine with that because its more important to be exciting than victorious.

    Henning allows his QBs to open it up once they prove they deserve to. always has, always will. Hell Henne is even encouraged to do it more within the current playcalling but he's too scared to unless the guy is wide open. He's simply not ready to be a mad bomber. Maybe next year
     
  38. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

    37,392
    14,745
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    new york ciity
    this regime didnt take anything away from him. if telling him to be careful with the ball ruined him then he's a bigger ***** then his worst critics make him out to be. When Henne grows a pair he'll make the leap he needs to. Until then we're stuck watching our kid ride the bicycle with training wheels because he's simply too scared to have them taken off yet
     
  39. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

    37,392
    14,745
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    new york ciity
    would you have preferred going 4-10 but having a more wide open offense?
     
  40. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

    29,125
    7,721
    0
    Mar 15, 2009
    are you saying that one of the league's worst rushing offenses combined with a conservative dink and dunk passing game was responsible for us winning 3 more games than we would have if the offense were more open?
     

Share This Page