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Advanced Scout thoughts on Chad Henne

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    It's not stats Smahatz, it is his play itself that is where stats can deceive people.


    Look at it this way, Sparano has given him plenty of opportunities to throw the ball this yr, contrary to the once popular "oh, Sparano is to conservative" mantra that disappears and re-appears, the only way to evaluate Chad Henne is to..let him throw the ball..and they have been with poor results.


    Sure, and that is sort of the problem, if we think back to Frerotte's situation he was merely a caretaker Qb whose job was to hand off to Rick Williams and Ronnie Brown, he was third fiddle in that offense, Henne is being given far more opportunity and is winding up only as good as a third option..he is not excelling.

    To use a baseball analogy for Henne, runners are on second and third with no one out and Henne tries to bunt..95% of the time..
     
  2. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Is Henne permanently broken? Is his regression unrecoverable? That is my biggest concern and unknown.
     
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  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    IDK, here's why:

    Trent Edwards started his career in Buffalo as a good Qb defenses caught up to him and he could never take that next step upwards, no matter who they added to the team he just could not overcome the urge to take the checkdown and to drop his eyes, even this yr Gaily tried to make him the starter and he just could not break the habit, that was 3 yrs worth of "give him one more chance" and he..just..couldn't..stop doing it.
     
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  4. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Yeah, we seem to be in a bad, bad, bad way......once again!
     
  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not really BDH, CK posted the PFF ratings of our offensive line and as a whole they are quite good, we have a Franchise LT and Bess/Beast/Hartline, so it is not so much of a case of a lack of talent and starting from scratch, it is more a case of finding a Qb to plug in, not to develop per se.

    As a whole the offense has the most talent on it since the early 90's Dolphins teams with Fryar and Co.
     
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  6. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    But it would take a change at QB with a veteran in your mind....to me thats a temporary fix and not a guarantee either.

    I would prefer to find our FRANCHISE QB sooner rather than later. I would prefer if Henne was that guy, but I am not blind to FORCE Henne as that guy either.

    Regardless of QB, we need to change the OC and scheme.
     
  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well, the thing with the NFL is this is a Right Now league, you cannot give a young Qb forever to develop as no coach will last whilst the Qb throws more Int's than TD's, but with out pieces a young Veteran, 30 or so, could step in and have an outstanding season.

    That is why I advocate for one as the offense has obvious talent so they would not be stepping into a terrible situation with no weapons to work with on offense.


    Agreed, not necessarily Scheme as the time table would not support installing a new scheme when there is a lockout.
     
  8. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    We have pieces for sure...but we also are staring at guaranteed change of bodies.....I just expect us to use our Draft picks (hope to pick up a few extra as well) on Offense. Actually 2 years in theory is exactly what it should take to change over the D side and the O side. We did the D side in a big way last year and the results speak for themselves, now this year we focus Oside and we have significant youth, speed, and depth improvements. That is a winning formula.

    If we believe this to be true, I really would like to see Sparano and Ireland reap their just rewards. But boy, so much rides on Henne is scary. I would need to know the PRICE of our next vet QB, FA is fine, but I do not think we can waste a draft pick and TRADE for any QB.

    Not going to argue degrees of semantics....but I would expect similar changes to what occurred with the Nolan DC acquisition and his D scheme (or results) when compared to Pasqualoni.
     
  9. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The more I think about it, the more I believe Kolb is going to be an option before we get to the end of this thing.

    If we're sitting at #18, and Luck/Cam Newton are gone, maybe Mallett too, and your options are taking the 3rd or 4th receiver, or Mark Ingram, or a defensive player, I think you need to know everything you can about Kolb. I have no idea whether he is a franchise QB or not, but I hope Ireland is finding out.
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I would trade for Kyle Orton, no question about it, as landing a Qb is more important than a draft choice that may or may not make it in the NFL.

    I refuse to overvalue draft choices, when a 6th rd pick can outplay a 2nd rd pick, it is insane to treat them as some sort of lifeline.



    Hmm, put it this way, Nolan had from the Senior Bowl until September to choose the guys he wanted, install his scheme, have competitions for roles, a new OC/Scheme will not have that same timetable for installation as there could/will be a lockout that lasts the entire summer, there will be no OTA's and MiniCamps and maybe even Training Camp for that to happen this yr.

    How then are you going to train the 20 guys on offense in an entirely new scheme and allow for competition?

    Now if you acquire a Veteran Qb, you side step all of those issues as it is far easier to train one guy in a system rather than 20 guys.
     
  11. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

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    Actually, Marshall has, on multiple occasions, complimented Henne for throwing a very catchable ball. In fact, on one occasion, it was quite clear that he was dogging Orton for throwing balls where the nose came in dipped, making it a much more difficult catch. I really think it's a reach to suggest that Orton delivered the ball all that much better than Henne does, especially with those comments. On the other hand, when I watch highlight clips of Marshall in Denver, I see him catching balls off routes with a lot more space for yards after catch. We just don't seem to be able to get him in a position to do that. I think that's both on Henning, on our lack of an explosive run game, and on our lack of speed at receiver to stretch defenses. I do not think it's on Henne's passes. If so, that's a minor issue, if you ask me.
     
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  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I do not take what Bills players say in consideration.

    I would put all those under the top 3. If Henne did a better job of taking advantage of the Bills stacking the box to stop the run, Miami would have a better running game.

    Poor quarterbacking has hurt this team a lot this year. He seemed to do better last season.
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It is like you didn't even read what I said.
     
  14. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Retread garbage is still that....Orton is not worth wasting a pick on either. I would choose Palmer over Orton. I would choose McNabb over Orton if you want to gamble on a vet. But best case is to do with via FA and not trade a pick. We have other needs on Offense to improve our chances than solely chasing a QB. 6 picks could solve them with a FA QB or just going with Henne. 5 picks with vet QB traded for is a waste and brings no more guarantees (especially without knowing the OC).

    I am not overvaluing draft picks, but I am am also not overvaluing a retread Vet QB that hasnt proven he is a franchise QB either and using a draft pick to acquire a gamble. If we had every spot solidified and all we needed was this type of QB gamble, I would trade the entire draft for one....but not in the state we are in on Offense.

    Now caveat....if you say, but the draft pick being traded is 3rd day pick, fine, go for it....but 1st day pick...no way.
     
  15. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yes you are, draft choices are far overvalued, put it this way, could you find a Qb with a pick that will come in and play as well as say a Orton or Palmer in yr #1?

    Nope, you would be hard pressed to find a rookie Wr that has played as well as Marshall has in a terrible offense.

    The key being..you cannot trade picks every year, not high ones, as there are positions where a player can come in and play quickly and at a high level, Qb is not one of them, put it this way, are the Bears regretting trading 2 #1 picks for Cutler?
     
  16. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Exactly Pad.

    This is why Kolb is starting to make sense to me. The guy is still young with upside, but you have actual NFL film of him being successful. He is not the second coming of AJ Feeley. He is much closer to Schaub/hasselbeck as far as projecting backup QB's to starters to me.
     
  17. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I just do not like Kolb, not at all, I'd much rather move on a Veteran Qb who we know what we are getting than once again gambling on that mythical Beast known as:

    "Upside"

    To me we have the pieces for a Ferrari on offense and this move cannot be botched..period we need "Right Now" not "oh, 3 yrs from now".
     
  18. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    No I am not, never have, I view Draft as one of the 3 legs of the stool including FA and Trades. And yes, you can find a draft QB to produce winning results regardless of #1 pick or not. It depends on all other aspects of the team as well. For every example of one team happy with using a draft pick and putting a young QB on the field (Rothelsberger, Ryan, Flacco, Sanchez, Stafford (sans Injury), Bradford, McCoy, etc) you can also find teams unhappy. For every team happy with trading a pick to gamble on a QB, you can find unhappy. Its not an exact science as each is just one of the 3 options available.

    At this stage, for this franchise our Oside needs are significant and depending on the next OC, may or may not include using a pick to obtain a Vet QB. I would use that as a last resort not the end all be all out of the gate go use a pick to get one.

    Put it this way are the Dolphins regretting tossing draft picks year after year in recent memory trying to find a Vet QB??
     
  19. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    I read the full post. Everything else was just banter. You seem pretty high on the conversation with the friend though. So allow me these questions.

    Do YOU know how routes are read?
    Do YOU know what he was talking about?

    This isn't meant to incite. These are legitimate questions. To the layman, your friends statements might actually be condemning. To me it is not. I know how routes are read. Do you? If so, tell me. If not, I'll tell you.
     
  20. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i like Kolb alot. I think he would fit in well here. My only concern is he is coming from a west coast offense so it might take him awhile before he figures out our offense which will probably stay Coryell. It shouldnt be too long a period but it could take a couple of months to really feel comfortable in it

    It really is dependent on who the off coord is though. If its a new regime, I think you try to draft Mallett just in case Henne doesnt progress. If its just a new off coord then you have to figure out what style he's running and fit a QB to that style
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  21. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    eeer.......uuuhh. I think you missed the point of that post.

    That post was directly linked to Killerphins post about "so-called dolphins supporters" throwning Chad Henne under the bus. I was just arming him with the ammunition for the "so-called Dolphins supporter" Killerphins to throw someone under the bus.

    In your haste to disagree, you agreed........CHIEF!
     
  22. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    The irony is the Bears treated Orton just like the Dolphins are treating Chad Henne but now Orton is a good QB in this league and some Dolphins fans are willing to trade for him. :wink2:
    Also Kevin Kolb for a first round pick? Jesus Christ are you people out of your skulls?
    Then there is the Palmer/ McNabb ideas which would be the much better option if they both weren't washed up and didn't suck so badly. I would love to see a QB come here to compete with Henne but the options totally blow. Especially the one that has us drafting a QB in the first round. That is the worst idea of all.

    The Henne haters are in a dilemma with horrible choices.
    Most of them hate development because you have to be patient. Do you really think any of the ideas being tossed around are going to get us to the SB. :lol:
    Can't wait to see how this all turns out.
     
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  23. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    This is what I don't get. Statistically, our passing game has improved from last year. YPA is up from 6.2 (24th) to 6.8 (21st). YPG is up from 198 (20th) to 218 (17th). Henne's completion % is up from 61 to 62. His TDs/sacks/Ints % are all slightly up. Henne's record is 7-6, same as last year. The last five games that Henne didn't start, we're 0-4 with Henne coming off the bench to beat Tennessee (assist to Thigpen). Its pretty hard to make a case that Henne, or the passing attack has had much of a "regression". Has it improved, only slightly. But any improvement at all is cause for celebration with 2nd year QB's. Defenses finally have tape on 2nd year guys, which they use to attack them. They call it sophomore slump for a reason. The 3rd season is normally when you'd expect a QB to show some noticeable improvement. 2nd season's are normally rough. But I digress.


    OTOH, lets take a look at the running game. YPG we've gone from 139 (4th) to 103 (21st). YPC we went from 4.4 (4th) last year to 3.7 (only the Colts are worse) this year. Rushing TDs, we were #1 in the league last year with 22 TDs. This year? Tied with Buffalo for DEAD LAST with 6. Let me repeat that. In 14 games, we have 6 TDs. How about 20+ yd runs? Last year 9, this year 4. Keep in mind, that last year Ronnie Brown missed the last 7 games and the WC died with him.

    And still, the myth of Chad Henne's "regression" causing our offense to fail continues to spread, mostly in the minds of the ill informed.
     
  24. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Yes, I know how routes are read with leverage and what yard marker hips are sunk and etc etc. I did play WR in college, so I think I know a thing or two. But feel free to educate me if you'd like
     
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  25. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Crap lol my bad, good call.
     
  26. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    2 to 1 sound familiar? Did that jog anything?
     
  27. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    In which game have we come out with the intention of featuring Henne as a passer? I'm not talking about after we've fallen behind or had our inability to run exposed. I'm talking about a game where we intentionally chose to pass first/run second as a game strategy.

    And that is a terrible analogy. A "runner on third" would be Desean Jackson, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, Jamal Charles, guys who can score off a single or a sac fly. We don't have that. None of our guys are taking a short pass and turning it into a big gain. Our defense isn't taking the ball away, we're 2nd to last in takeaways, ST isn't setting us up with scores or great field position either. In order for us to score, Henne has to take us down the field a few yards at a time, without a run game to protect him. We need 2-3 singles, a stolen base and an error to score any runs. We have no home run hitters whatsoever. And even when we do get the bases loaded and we're ready to score a few runs, we go to the Wildcat, aka the suicide squeeze.
     
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  28. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Lemme guess, you listen to the games on the radio. :lol:
     
  29. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    depends on the context. Route combo? Coverage stance? Defensive scheme? Alignment? Left/Right foot primary on WR? PSR?

    Theres 2 to 1 in various aspects with WR/DB...
     
  30. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I don't see many people defending Henne. I see people trying to explain that our offensive implosion has happened for many reasons, and that its not as simple as "Henne sucks and and we need a new QB".
     
  31. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Pattern Reads - It is the subject. Forget it, I need some sleep. The next one is the hum-dinger.....
     
  32. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Our entire passing game happens in the intermediate area. We don't have a deep threat to force coverage back, we don't have dangerous RBs who can force coverage forward. Our screen game is an abomination. Everything happens in the 5-20 yd range. Opposing teams know this, and they defend the areas heavily. The passing windows are condensed and sometimes non-existent. And when a WR does get the ball he's draped in coverage (tacklers) before he can even turn up field. It's an incredibly difficult way to move the ball through the air. Add in no rushing attack or effective play action game and you've got a recipe for a 31st ranked scoring unit. Either that or it's all Henne's fault.
     
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  33. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    yeah i know 2 to 1 in pattern reads... just like a 3 to 2...
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Odd, what exactly happened this past Sunday?


    Eh, when/ if Henne is no longer the starting Qb for the Miami Dolphins, we shall see.

    Or in the words of Brian Hartline "from a Receivers point of view, you'd like to see more passes that actually travel into the endzone".
     
  35. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I agree.

    There's no doubt there are troubling signs with Henne.
    The comments from the scout.... (if true.. with Omar anything is possible) are also troubling.
    I will say we have a former scout on our boards that has defended Henne and put the blame mostly on the OC and his development (or lackthereof) from our staff.

    So who's to know?

    Even with Henne's issues there's still a mountain of evidence to support the shortcomings of Henning and our coaching staff. At the LEAST both the QB and the offensive staff needs to go. Having said that, I still feel Henne is very salvageable. He's shown flashes of greatness at times while he's also shown the flashes of crap. I still feel this staff has been trying to make him into something he's not and have stunted his development because of it. The reasons why have been discussed ad nauseum so I'm not going to go into all that again.

    Bottom line, to me, I'd like to see a new coaching staff brought in. A new OC at the least.

    As Killerphins mentioned development is a very real necessity with most prospects. It takes time and commitment.

    A fresh influence on Henne through another offseason with someone dedicated to working with him on the areas of his game he needs help on to make it in the NFL. I as well am in favor of drafting a mid round QB if one with potential is available. I do not believe we have the luxury of drafting a QB early however. I don't believe it's that much of an emergency yet. Other areas need much more help. If Henne gets a fresh start, focused coaching and fails again next year you then have to consider spending a top pick on another top prospect.
     
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  36. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    This about sums it up.

    When people say guys with homerun ability don't really matter and are overrated (and go so far as saying Bess & Hartline count as playmakers), I'm not sure if they watch other games around the league. There are 3 games that we lost by a total of 7 points. Teams like Philly win those b/c they have at least 1 homerun hitter who can easily change the game with a single play. They even won a game on a punt return. Fat chance of us doing that!!

    Fans moan about not scoring enough points & lack of offensive production, but then at the same time it seems like they WANT us to do it the hard way rather than taking a few easy TDs here and there.
     
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  37. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    GR? Hmm, I had thought it was something slightly different at issue?

    And keep in mind, Sparano said "he" called the passing plays on Sunday, not Henning, maybe falling on his sword, maybe not, but to me Henne just is not to be trusted at Qb at the moment imho.

    Cannot waste another season on Chad Henne, just cannot do it, let him compete with a proven Vet, but do not head into 2011 with yr #4 of "developing Chad Henne" that would be unwise.

    Stick with him, and we see 2009 and 2010 redux, then what?

    Put it this way, the comparison to Kyle Boller?

    Boller had fewer starts before he got Billick fired and he was correctly deemed "not the answer".
     
  38. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    We tried to establish the run, it didn't work. Buffalo wasn't putting 8 into the box with the frequency they did last year. They were sneaking safeties down late, guessing run so to speak. Last year they showed 8 and used 8, consistently. They were scared of our run game and it showed. And we ran it on them anyway. Last week they held their own with 7, shut us down on a 3rd and 1 early on. We ended up with 17 rushes vs 44 passes against the 32nd ranked run defense in the league, in a game that was never out of hand.

    But when the game was on the line we went to the WC. Henne had just driven us down the field for a TD to Marshall to get us to within 3. There was plenty of time on the clock. No real reason to play for a FG there. I have never in life seen another OC pull his QB pull in those circumstances. About as close as you can get to spitting in Chad Henne's face.
     
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  39. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Now there may be some that cannot even count receivers so I'll make this post simple enough for the football ******. If that ain't you, then you should not be offended.

    This post is about cornerbacks and their predictions. It is how they predict. It is how they are taught to predict. In the NFL, secondary play becomes a craft. To the amazement of most players in the secondary, they learn this when it becomes a job. This isn't high school stuff - at least not any high school I've ever been around. There simply is not enough time to chase girls, pop pimples, practice football, AND make you smart.

    Those that have the size, ability and capacity in their brains can learn it and put it to work in the NFL. Those that cannot move on to car sales. Not one player will ever attempt to teach a reporter this method. They will simply say that route patterns are predictable...........and they are. Anyone can learn this. The issue is teaching your feet to do what you mind is telling you and teaching your mind to do what your feet are telling you. It is not easy. It is the difference between a zone coverage stud and an also ran.

    Universal Route Patterns - It may come as a surprise but ALL pass offense are built upon a very limited number of basic patterns. And even though several adjustments are possible with a given pattern, complementary receiver routes are ALWAYS organized in a highly predictable manner. It is incumbent upon the defense to reduce the maze of individual pass routes to a finite number of Universal Patterns.

    For each position in the secondary the read is different but basically ALL of the secondary is using ONE player to tell them what another player will do. Let's talk about the cornerback in a 3 deep zone. He will be our example. Then take whatever you have - be it Madden 2010, route patterns doodled by local internet guru, or your old high school playbook. Put yourself at cornerback and play by the following rules.....

    3 Deep Zone

    Any dummie can tell you that the cornerback is responsible for the deep third. But what does he do? Does he just run backwards until the ball is thrown? Does he stop when one guy stops? Is he looking at one, two, or three guys? WTF is he doing back there? Running aimlessly?

    The Cornerback keys the number 2 receiver to the number 1 receiver. Here is a point of clarification for those that do not know how to count receivers. There are six mobile personell on the field. You can call them whatever you want but there are only six.

    Two on each ends of the line of scrimmage
    Four in the backfield.

    The number 1 that I mentioned above is the closest mobile personell to YOUR sideline. The number 2 is the second closest mobile personell to YOUR sideline. Number 3 is the third closest mobile personell to YOUR sideline.

    (back to our cornerback)

    The Cornerback keys number 2 to tell him what number 1 will do. We are building a rough draft. We want to simplify this guys job. This is how it is done for the cornerback in the 3 deep.



    Number 2 runs a shallow IN = expect number 1 to run deeper IN
    Our cornerback will expect to drive on the number 1's IN route. Remember he is the deep 1/3 defender.



    Number 2 run a shallow OUT = Expect the number 1 to run a deeper CURL
    Our cornerback will expect to drive on the deeper CURL.



    Number 2 blocks = Expect the number 1 to run a deep breaking route or vertical



    Number 2 runs vertical route = See if number 1 studder steps
    If number 1 studder steps and then runs IN = Number 2 will run DEEP OUT
    If no studder step from number 1 = stay in deep 1/3 and split the 1 and 2


    Golden Rule -
    Anything deep from number 2 = Cornerback plays deep



    If you play cornerback and you are given that information.........when you win, you can say everything was predictable. The fact of the matter is you are just happy about having the information and the capability to utilize it.
     
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  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You did ask "when", as Sparano said, they were showing him a look that we could pass against..and Henne couldn't pass against it, we were in the Redzone..twice..which is par for the course with Henne.

    Meanwhile Fitzy has UDFA's and late round picks, and was working our #5 defense, point being that "more weapons" are not necessarily the answer, it is the Qb play...


    Because Henne has not shown he can drive the ball all season as a reason?

    Nah, blame:

    Henning
    Scheme
    Sparano
    Meteor Showers
    Full Moon
    Pennington

    Henne has two games left..thank goodness.
     
    Stringer Bell likes this.

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