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Henning openly critical of Henne's play

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Dec 16, 2010.

  1. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    I agree absolutely but you still have to throw the kid a bone and let him establish some sense of a comfort level. I seem to remember the Titans game and the spread Offense that he seemed to excel in, where has that gone? Is that only for Penny?
     
  2. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    by this logic then Thigpen would now be the starter I would think.
     
  3. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Obviously there have been some changes, and of course it's easy to immediately blame the new guys, but the problems with our run game go way beyond the OL. Smiley and Grove were among the highest paid at their positions, and chronically injured, a bad mix. Thomas was beaten out for his spot by Jerry, and the FO prefers backups who have positional flexibility so they kept McQuistan and Garner instead.

    A few people have mentioned it, but not many. Our RBs tandem could make any OL look bad. We can block a run perfectly and our backs will still only get 6-8 yds. If the blocking isn't perfect, they can muscle it in there 3-4 yards, and that's what happens on the majority of our run plays. If the blocking breaks down, the play is over. You won't ever see Ronnie or Ricky make a guy miss in the backfield, and make a decent gain. They never turn bad blocking into good yardage, or good blocking into great yardage, or great blocking into TDs. They give us the bare minimum on each carry, and rarely any more than that. Just as WR's tend to run better routes when they feel as though the ball could be coming to them, an OL may tend to block better when they know that there's potential for a big gain. There's no such potential with these guys. I'm not scapegoating the backs, I'm just saying that there's enough blame to go around for everyone.
     
    Bpk likes this.
  4. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    It wasn't a spread that dismantled the Titans. It was man coverage.

    The number of receivers on the field opens the quarterback up to a less predictable situation. With each TE or blocking back you remove from the field brings a better athlete onto the defensive side of the ball. Then you get a defensive muddle huddle with only three linemen in the game. The rest will be linebackers and defensive backs.

    The question you ask is the very subject that Dan Henning was speaking when he put the tire tracks on Chad Henne's back. The man has kept Chad Henne in a situation that will be predictable for HIM. For the defense, they still don't know if it's run or pass. We go into spread on two occassions with this quarterback.

    1. When it's almost a certainty the defense will play man-free coverage.

    2. When we have lost the ability to run due to the score.

    Henne has totally succeeded in the 1st situation. Henne has totally failed at the second situation. Why do you not see it more? Two teams have given us the first situation and we have only been down more than two scores in our losses. Our losses are kinda hefty in the INT department.
     
  5. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    That is a knockout. DING! DING! DING!
     
  6. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    You take this pretty seriously. But you're probably talking about ToddPhins. And it's "in which you". Don't worry though Zod, I don't hate you. My disagreement with you extends only to your attitude when debating other posters. Otherwise there isn't a beef. Remember Zod, my first run in with you was the way you spoke to someone else.
     
  7. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    Oh I understand there were issues. Including injuries, among other things. Still, that was a better run blocking line than what we have today, despite their other issues and deficiencies (like staying on the field, or in fThomas's case footwork in passblocking when playing faster rushers inside or picking up stunting linemen in space).
     
  8. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I figured you'd know what the "reason" was, apparently not so I'll explain. In order to gameplan for a QB you need film on him, he has to be, you know, playing. Obviously that didn't happen for Henne in 2008 b/c all he did was mop up in the Arizona game. Meanwhile Flacco was starting all year and going to the AFCCG and Ryan played 17 games, including a playoff game in Arizona. Now that DCs have film on them, their "sophomore slump" would come in 2009, and it did. For Henne, 2009 was his first (freshman) year AS A STARTER, so his "slump" year would be 2010. Check your calendar, champ.

    You may have noticed, (most) teams have figured out that Henne struggles to identify windows in zone coverage. He carves man-blitz schemes though, ask the Jets, Raiders and Packers. But if you throw a Cover 2 at him, he looks hesitant, and occasionally lost. Part of that is our slow WRs and our max protect tendencies, but in a nutshell, the book on our offense is to drop 7, play zone and wait for a mistake. The teams who have done that have had success, the teams who've played man have paid for it. Now, its incumbent on Henne and the staff to come back in year 3 with answers for the way defenses are attacking our passing game. Maybe they will, maybe they wont, both Flacco and Ryan are having career years in their 3rd go at it. Henne is miles behind those two, but its not like anyone should be surprised by that. He lasted until late in the 2nd round for a reason. Noodle armed, left handed, spread option QBs like White and Tebow don't even last that long.
     
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  9. DOLPHAN1

    DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box

    Oh I understand Henne has issue, I've stated as much. but to obsolve the OC and coaching in general for not putting this entire Offense in a position to win is beyond me. Henne has mechanics he needs to work on but he will not get better until he begins to feel comfortable. He is doubting himself bigtime and I don't see the OC doing anything to help him believe. Instead he gets thrown under the bus. Means a lot to me that Marshall continues to support Henne as well as Penny standing by him. To me there is more to this than Henne sucks/Henning sucks.
     
  10. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    The "slump" stuff would be all great and all but the coverage would have to come as a surprise. Do you think that it came as some sort of a surprise? Do you think he practiced and scrimmage versus 2008, 2009, and 2010 Miami Dolphins defense and not see zone? Do you think the great number of 7 on 7's did not include zone? To sell the reason for YOUR slump you would have to show that he didn't know it was coming and has never seen it. For Chad Henne's entire career the Miami Dolphins has been a zone coverage team.
     
  11. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    This really raises and expands upon a point that I had touched slightly on earlier.

    For us as fans, there's so much that one cannot really know in terms of the QB V OC.

    Same as the cliche, "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" Or, maybe both are terrible!

    I am not even sure that either the coaches or the QB know for sure, though I think Lee may be the one who would have the best grasp.

    If Henning sees only a few mistakes in his play calling and feels he's doing his job correctly but sees mistakes in the QB, then he is going to be biased. He's probably thinking like Gary Stevens' (making chicken salad out of chicken s!@#). But, he, like many of us, probably is blind to many of his problems.

    At the same time, there are issues with the OL (I put that on Sparano), age at RB, lack of speed at RB, some issues at WR (beyond Marshall though he has his own baggage) and issues with the QB, obviously.

    I see some parts I still have some confidence in - I think there is hope for the WR's; I think we have one great OLineman; we have a great FB; and a very good Kicker. Beyond that, I just find the rest of the unit could be replaced (including the OC).

    I know there is talk about how Josh McDaniels did not get along with Marshall so he's not an option, but it would be sweet if McDaniels wasn't really the issue there and that their relationship were okay b/c I think McDaniels can run an offense (what he did with Kyle Orton was quite impressive as I thought Orton was horrible with the Bears).

    Otherwise, we really need to scour the league for a good OC. Obviously some QB coaches that have been part of strong offenses are one place to look.

    A final observation that I think falls on the OC:

    It is uncanny how many games I have watched the Colts - and sometimes the Patriots - in which receivers break wide open across the field. And, when they show an isolation, the receiver ran a pretty basic route.

    - This relates to both the system and teaching the receivers where to run and how to see the openings in zones.

    Obviously, the QB has to know when they are breaking open (Henne has really failed at that big time - especially in the 3 INT game against the Browns) and that really is on his shoulders. I don't care what the coaches are saying or how good they are at teaching, if you are an NFL QB you have to be able to read where the LB's and DB's are and understand when a receiver is about to break into an open zone (as with Henne's INT when he threw behind Bess - instead of throwing to the TE breaking open over the middle).

    It's not a pretty sight right now, that's for sure.
     
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  12. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    [video=youtube;eGDBR2L5kzI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGDBR2L5kzI[/video]

    I don't think you can expect a QB to be able to deal with the issue based on facing Cover 2 looks in practice. I'd be insulting Henning and co.'s intelligence to suggest they didn't think that Henne might be facing more zone. The problem IMO, is that our offense as a whole is ill suited to attack Cover 2. Henning calls too many 7 man protections. The backs stay in to block so there's no one to force the CBs to play the flats and our WRs end up being bracketed, Marshall especially. Fasano is too slow to threaten the seam consistently so the safeties can cheat to the outside and take the Corner and Takeoff routes away. Our running game isnt effective enough to force teams into a single high look. Add it all up and it's really not a surprise that our offense struggles against that look. Everyone wants to blame Henne or Henning, but if you step back you'd see that it's a systemic failure more so than a deficiency with any individual.
     
  13. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    That same offensive coordinator that only does well when he has a very good running game. We had that last year and not this year. IMO that's the big difference. IMO Peyton Manning would have difficulty succeeding in that situation. The defense, which is rounding into shape now was a bit of a liability early on. If they had played all year at their current level, I think we have a couple more wins. I would also put at least one loss, maybe two, on the STs.
     
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  14. Disciple

    Disciple Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    4-5 years is a little on the sarcastic side I'd say. Now the QB's you mentioned had 0 upside from game 1 and I don't recall except for Feeley even one halfway decent game. Henne has shown he can play, unfortunately more often than not, he's showing that he can't play as well. I'm far from the Henne is our future, and I am all for drafting a QB, but to just give up on him seems silly. And I'm not stating you said to give up on him, just that the argument of the current deficiencies were ridiculous, when clearly they're part of the issue.

    I would have to disagree here. The pro-bowl o-line isn't necessary, but I was being nice when I said our line is avg. only b/c we have (had) two strong starting tackles. The inside is a mess and is getting abused now in the passing game as well.

    As far as the running games you mentioned above, the Patriots and Chargers are running the ball very well. I don't care about ypc. Lets look at what puts points on the board, TDs. New England has 16 rushing TDs - Miami 5. Mike Tolbert runs in beast mode in the redzone. Only Arian Foster has more rushing TDs than Tolbert. Of course they have better QBs. Your talking about teams that have had the best QBs of the past decade minus the ravens. I'm talking about a young QB in a terrible situation and that thinking he can improve is not ridiculous. Also Flacco is not that much better than Henne, if at all. The Ravens have won half their games by 3 or less and having things go their way at the end has happened on quite a few of those games. I'm not sure how many Ravens games you have watched, but if you swapped the two out (Flacco and Henne) I would say the teams current status would be the same.
     
  15. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    You would be willing to give up a first round pick for Kevin Kolb because that is what it will take. We don't have a second.
    That would be an absolute disaster.....
     
  16. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Something that comes to mind when I see the Iverson interview - I think the worm has turned on that one. Many moons ago it had some relevance due to his fame. I actually used it for humor in the past. How do you think coaches in every sport can use that video seeing as Iverson has won no championship in his entire career. 14 years with one MVP and one NBA Final to show for it.

    Practice? We talkin' about practice?

    Absolutely nothing replaces game experience. Nothing. But one does have to show improvement as a natural course does he not?

    Sit or start? Ask a different quarterback, you get a different answer. The ones that fail did not like their avenue. The ones that succeed love their avenue. Chad Henne's avenue resides somewhere between Joe Flacco and a guy whose career will be shortened by concussions - Aaron Rodgers. Henne's success or failure will stand on his own merits. As evidenced by the laundry list of QBs the Miami Dolphins have had, the opportunity does not last long.

    This is where you lose me. What offense is suited to attack Cover 2 if not this one? You said 7 man protection. Ask another and you will hear a different reason. But I will address you reasoning. 7 man protections leave 5 more mobile personel on the field. One of them is the QB. That leave four receivers. You put four receivers on film running down the field continually and Chad Henne will see more zone blitz than you have ever seen. It's really simple math. You can protect the quarterback and they will saturate coverage or you can not protect the quarterback and they will come after him. What do you want for your young QB? I have seen a nice mix of route patterns. Especially when I consider the pocket presence, escapability, and decision making of this quarterback.

    This happens on occassion. It's the occassions when the backs see linebackers or DBs threaten to rush. Otherwise, they release in the flats. That's an inaccurate read of the RB.

    I addressed the flats and there are other ways we attack the flats such as Fasano and Bess. The issue is that this relief valve has been taken too often. The coverage down field is NOT perfect. The issue is that the movement of the DBs you mention are read and the relief valve is taken. It's not that Henne stares anyone down. It's that he ALWAYS takes the low read. It's actually worse than staring them down because what he is doing is seen on film before the ball is ever snapped.

    We have sent every one of our receivers down the seam. With two safeties in play, the seam is disregard before the snap. That is a problem.

    ......and that is a statement we can agree upon. But since the very first game the snipes have come against play calls. Go check the posts. Look for the thread starts on September 12th. I saw issues with the quarterback in the first game. I have seen it ever since. When you review the season it becomes very easy to conclude that the staff saw issues with this offense BEFORE we saw them.
     
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  17. Killerphins

    Killerphins The Finger

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    You need to go preach to Dan Henning and tell him to stop throwing his QB under the bus in front of the entire media. Statements he made on Thurs. will only further divide this offense. Yes we are not out of the playoff hunt yet he spouts off in public instead of keeping it in house. Stupid dumbass move from a senile old man.

    Dan Henning can go to hell. My days of rooting for that guy to do anything right are over. F him.
     
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This comparison with Flacco has got to stop imo, there is none at this point..Flacco is playing very good ball for a young QB on a contending team..Henne is playing very poorly.
     
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  19. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    If Thigpen had shown anthing positive in the Bears game. I think it is quite likely Sparano
    would have gone with Thigpen the rest of the season over Henne. The fact though is that Thigpen is nothing but a back-up QB in the NFL. He was never traded to the Dolphins to be a starter. I think the fact that Sparano benched Henne in favor of an often injured Pennington says a great deal more about where Sparano is leaning regarding Henne. Just because Sparano is sticking with Henne over Thigpen doesn't mean that Sparano is happy with Henne. It says a lot more about how little confidence Sparano has in Thigpen then it does how much confidence Sparano has in Henne. The fact that the Dolphins have gone back to putting the ball in Ronnie Brown's hand in the Wildcat shows me that the Dolphins staff is wary of Henne playing QB once the team reaches the opponents red zone. Sparano's job appears secure this season. The Dolphins will probably win at least 9 games. So next year the heat will really be turned up on Sparano to get this team into the playoffs. I don't think that he feels Henne or any of the QB's now on this team are capable of providing the quaterbacking skills necessary to get the Dolphins to the playoffs. That is why I THINK Sparano and Ireland will attempt to upgrade the QB position in the offseason. If they can't and they are stuck with Henne as the starter again next year. I suspect Sparano and Ireland will be looking for new jobs after next season. It will then be up to the new regime to find a replacement for Henne.
     
  20. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    If, after the nice TD pass to Marshall in the Red Zone Henne made in the first half, the Coaches were more comfortable going with the Wildcat, after it has done nothing all season, our staff is made of idiots.
     
  21. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Iverson, Hall of Famer. There are maybe a handful of coaches per sport who are better at coaching than AI is at playing basketball, so I'd take their critiques of him with a bucket of salt.

    Absolutely. I think it's hard to argue that Henne hasn't improved this season. Casual fans want to bash him after every bad game but on the whole, he looks like a better QB than he did last year. The results aren't improving primarily IMO, because defenses have a book on him this year whereas last year teams were blitzing, using man coverage, playing into Henne's strengths basically. It's on Henne and the staff to come up with ways to combat what's being done to us on offense, so far they haven't but I'm not going to scapegoat Henne or anyone else.

    IMO you play your young QB so long as you can protect him. Flacco is well protected by his OL, running game and defense. Rodgers was the most sacked QB in the league last year, has no running game, a suspect OL, and now he's in Milwaukee somewhere trying to count how many fingers the doctor is holding up( and ruining my fantasy team :pity:). I agree that Henne is somewhere in between, but I think he's being over protected.

    IMO, you cant attack a Cover 2 with 3 receivers, not unless you have Desean Jackson, Jeremy Maclin type speed outside. Aside from that, you need 4-5 guys in the pattern to have consistent success vs 7 man coverages. Our skill guys are pathetically slow as a group. They cant get deep, cant force the zones to expand, and it leaves Henne no room to find windows. Henne isnt Penne, he doesn't excel at making super accurate passes underneath. Henne's a down field, outside the numbers guy and unless he has the scheme and supporting cast to suit that style, we're not going to see him reach his potential. You make a good point about the zone blitzes, Henne looked lost vs the Jets zone dogs. But Im cutting him slack b/c its awfully hard to find open guys when vs Cleveland he's throwing to Bess, Moore, Wallace and vs NY Marshall, Bess, Moore. We're overmatched outside in both games, the results were predictable. Pocket presence, escapability, definitely he needs work, he seems to put his head down and not even attempt to look down field to make a play. On the last series vs NY Henne had Ronnie open when Bart Scott dropped coverage to pursue but he chose to put his head down and try to truck over 2 LBs. The look Fasano gave him on the sideline afterward was priceless.

    Disagree. We habitually leave 7 in whether the blitz is coming, we think it might come, or we have no reason to think it's coming. Henning doesn't seem to trust either a) Henne to make the reads b) the OL to protect or c) both.

    Bess is better served working underneath, Fas is too slow to threaten NFL LBs down the middle consistently. Perhaps Fas could hit the seam more often if we had a play action game, but our play fakes fool no one b/c our QB, RBs, OL don't carry them out any better than a local high school team. We need a TE with some quicks opposite Fasano and a deep threat to play flanker opposite Marshall b/c Hartline isn't the answer. Some speed in the backfield to replace R&R, we need that more than anything.

    I'd attack Cover 2 this way. 3WR 1TE set. RB in the flat strong side to force the corner out of his drop. Now you've got Marshall one on one with the safety and if Fas can get beat the MLB the safety would have two issues to deal with. Weak side, I'd let Bess work underneath vs the WLB and use Hartline to occupy the back side CB and safety. As it stands now, we dont threaten the flats so Marshall never gets his 1 on 1 with the safety. Hartline isnt drawing double coverage. Whereas Marshall is pulling his CB deep, Hartline's CB is staying shallow to help on Bess, either that or the CB is taking BH man to man while the safety creeps up to bracket Bess underneath. Either way, we're going to have a tough time working anyone open. Coming into the year, I wasn't worried about Cover 2 b/c I though we'd bludgeon teams out of it with our run game. I was wrong.

    I'd like to think they did see the issues. But all year long we've been killed by Cover 2. I keep hearing Henning talk about execution, execution, execution. It's as if he doesn't want to acknowledge that we're being out schemed as well as outplayed. I don't think the staff anticipated our running game falling off of a cliff, and I think that has been the genesis of the problem.
     
  22. GreysonWinfield

    GreysonWinfield Release The Hounds

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    How about all those Wildcat calls last week? Did Henning mention those & the execution of those plays? They generated lots of O and kept everyone guessing. My favorite was the screen to Marshall. There's plenty of blame to go around but Henning doesn't believe any of it is his.
     
  23. funkdat

    funkdat New Member

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    The post funk era

    It's sad only me and one other person gave you a "thanks" because anyone trying to defend ether of them guys has missed the boat.
     
  24. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

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    :headscratch:
     
  25. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    You'd be one of the "casual fans" I was talking about. :wink2:
     
  26. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Thank you.

    When Henning doesn't call play action passes on 3rd and 13, he can talk to me about how Henne isn't doing the right thing.

    I'm done with that pantload Henning. Another Parcells retread in a failed tenure.
     
  27. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

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    Man code dictates YOU take the blame, or you evenly distribute the blame.

    You don't throw somone under the bus.
     
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