1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The 2010/2011 MLB Offseason Thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Ray Finkle, Nov 3, 2010.

  1. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

    30,718
    5,415
    113
    Jan 6, 2010

    They overpaid for him, but it does matter, they have always had the money, him in that lineup is going to be worth it trust me...
     
  2. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

    53,333
    23,006
    0
    Dec 7, 2007
    braves supposedly are close to trading kawakami to the pirates.
     
  3. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    I knew you were but I'm not joking about a new ballpark. Besides the actual playing field, the new upper deck area, Green Monster and RF Roof area and how they block Yawkey Way off to traffic before and during the game so you can hang out and really get that baseball atmosphere, everything about Fenway Park stinks. The seats and rows are much too small, there are giant metal beams that block parts of the field depending on where you're sitting, there's not enough bathrooms, and have you ever seen the clubhouses for the players? Yikes. They need a new park, it's 99 years old and the improvements the ownership made have been nothing short than great but you can only do so much to a place that old. I just wish the city of Boston would realize this.
     
  4. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    I am willing to wait until Lee signs (expected 7yrs $140M) to then debate about the age old discussion of ARM vs. BAT.

    Both would be real close in terms of dollars with Arm being slightly less if things remain the same....but if so......would you rather have L arm or L bat for that deal?

    Yanks offer 7/140M for Lee. Hmmmmmm....interesting. If we get him, and with AG and Crawford both L....it would be interesting match up everytime for sure.

    P.S.
    Orioles re-sign reliever Koji Uehara to one-year deal
     
  5. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    You're right it will be a fun debate if and when the Yankees sign Lee. One thing you need to factor into the discussion is not only the age of the LHP pitcher vs. LHB but also the overall risk (injury history, body type,etc) and also production. It's not just black and white here. I usually almost always lean towards the pitcher but in this case I think Crawford is the safer of the two to maintain his level of production throughout the length of the contract.

    Just assuming the Yankees sign Lee for 7 years, I think he's obviously the more risky player because he's a pitcher, is older and has had a nagging back injury this year (which could be nothing but for that length of time and money I'd give those medicals a long look).
     
  6. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
  7. Finfangirl

    Finfangirl Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

    10,340
    52,516
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    Bay Area, Ca
    I still dont get the Mediots out there who say this is an absolute coup for the sox. Carl Crawford is NOTand Elite player; yes he's very good, but he's not elite. If the Yankees signed Craw for that kind of money, it would be the "worst signing in the history of baseball". I dont personally think that carl is worth 142 million and if the yankees signed him to that contract i would be very pissed. The sox essentially traded beltre/Vmart for craw/agon. They still didnt get better in their rotation. I will take CC, Lee, and Phil over Beckett, Lackey, and lester. Pitching wins championships; it always has and it always will.
     
  8. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    Not everyone thinks it a coup for sure....

    So: is the Carl Crawford deal actually, you know, a good one?


    Crawford is a career .296/.337/.444 hitter, which puts his career OPS+ at 107. Which is OK, because obviously a lot of his value comes on defense and on the base paths. But as David Pinto points out in an excellent post over at Baseball Musings, time stops for no man, especially men whose game is built on speed. He has never hit more than 19 homers. Once he stops being a force on the bases and loses a step or two in the outfield, even a spike up to 25-30 home runs a year won’t justify $20 million+ at the back end of this deal.
     
    jdang307 and Finfangirl like this.
  9. Finfangirl

    Finfangirl Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

    10,340
    52,516
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    Bay Area, Ca
    How do you think Youk and Pedroia feel today, knowing they are probably on par or better than a player who just signed for 142 million and they will never see the likes of that money....
     
  10. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

    20,459
    14,210
    113
    Apr 2, 2008
    Coral Springs, FL
    Paying that much for Crawford seems to go against the grain for Boston. I thought for sure they'd go after Werth instead. I heard the Yankees were making a push for Crawford as a decoy to get the Sox to break the bank for him. Conversely, it's been said Boston low-balled Cliff Lee for 7 years so that Lee would have leverage in getting a huge 7 year deal with New York.
     
  11. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

    1,516
    790
    113
    Jun 26, 2008
    Probably the same way Cano feels about Jeter's recent contract. Its a non-issue.

    I certainly don't love the deal but provided that Theo can bring in some reinforcements to the pen, this team is very deep and will be very, very good.
     
  12. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    The Sox didn't get better in the rotation because they didn't have any holes to fill, as the rotation was already set. Their rotation is Lester, Beckett, Buchholz, Lackey and Matsuzaka. I'll take those 5 right now over the current Yankee 5 of Sabathia, Burnett, Hughes, Nova(?) and Mirte (?). Of course even if the Yankees add Lee and Pettitte there will still be question marks in both rotations (Burnett's performance, can Pettitte hold up for the Yankees and for the Sox can Beckett and Lackey rebound). The Yankees would probably have the edge though on paper.

    Bottom line is, who cares what Crawford is getting paid or what the media is saying. Crawford makes the Red Sox a better team, as does Adrian Gonzalez.

    And I thought the worst contract in baseball history was for Kei Igawa but I forgot he's made the Triple A All-Star team at least once so far so by default you'd have to look at someone like Mike Hampton.

    Both Pedroia and Youkilis loved getting Crawford (and Gonzalez). They already commented on it. As for them making less than Crawford, I'm sure they probably wish it they were making even more than Crawford is getting (doesn't everyone wish they were getting paid more for what they do?) but they're not getting paid peanuts or playing for free. Both guys admitted they knew they were leaving potentially a lot of money on the table for signing their extensions when they did but they felt good about signing them since it gave them financial security and they liked the situation they were in. How do you think Jeter or Teixeira feels about not being paid as much as Arod? How do you think Cano feels about not being paid as much as Jeter?

    I guess I just don't see your point.
     
    finyank13 likes this.
  13. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    Call me crazy but I'd rather have Crawford 7/142 than Werth 7/127 due to age, injury history and body type. I think if the Sox could have gotten Werth for 4 years they would have jumped on it but word is Crawford was always the Sox #1 target from the beginning.

    For what it's worth the Sox apparently did not low ball Lee, they offered him a fairly large contract (probably 7/120ish range) but I'm sure they knew what they were doing aka driving up the price.
     
  14. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    Word is the Sox are closing to bringing back LHP Rich Hill and have put in multiple offers to RPers. I'm hoping to possibly get Scott Downs. I bet the Sox add at least 3 RPers between now and ST.
     
  15. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

    1,516
    790
    113
    Jun 26, 2008
    FWIW, its important to remember that some unknown amount of that 7 yr/$127M deal for Werth is the 'crappy team tax' that the Nationals had to pay to coerce Werth to play on a 69-win team. In the Crawford negotiations, there was no such fee (by all accounts Crawford enjoyed the idea of playing in Boston).

    So in that sense, its not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison.
     
  16. Finfangirl

    Finfangirl Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

    10,340
    52,516
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    Bay Area, Ca
    My point was the money they paid for a player that is NOT ELITE in anyway. Sure he makes the sox better, but the money is goint to look awful in 3-4 yrs. 17% of crawford's steals last yr came against the red sox. My other point was that if the yankees made this type of deal with crawford it would be called the worst contract in the history of baseball by the media.
     
  17. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

    1,516
    790
    113
    Jun 26, 2008
    I'd say he's a pretty elite defender/baserunner.

    I don't even like the deal, but you're going way too far the other way. His OPS+ isn't going to wow anyone, but he's a very good player with a pretty unique skill-set.
     
  18. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    I don't buy that at all. Players will go wherever the most money is, it doesn't matter which team it is. It's always been the case. Sure maybe if for example the Red Sox offered 7/120-124 range and the Nationals offered 7/127 that Werth would possibly go to the winner but for the most part they go to the highest bidder.
     
  19. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

    1,516
    790
    113
    Jun 26, 2008
    That's my point -- why do you think the Nationals' offer was so much higher than the other bids? Its because if the money was at all comparable, he's not deciding to play the next seven seasons in Washington. Hell, Washington even knew it -- Gammons reported that Rizzo told him 'we knew we had to overpay to make it a competitive bid.'
     
  20. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    The 'I don't get your power' comment was responding to your Pedroia/Youkilis comment.

    As Patsy said, the guy still brings in tons of value on the base path and in the field so even if he's not an elite hitter it's not like he's one dimensonal, he can help the team win in multiple ways. There are plenty of guys that have gotten big contracts that aren't elite players and we all agree he's getting overpaid.

    As for what the media has to say about the deal or any deal is really irrelevant here. Who cares if they hate or like the deal. Everyone was killing the Red Sox for trading away Hanley Ramirez and then the Sox won the WS the next year and all is forgotten. On the flip side everyone loved when the Sox got Gagne and then he sucked and everyone was killing them. The media changes their opinions/views like we change socks, at least once a day.

    I just hope you're getting prepared for the backlash if the Yankees give Cliff Lee 7 years. Seriously though don't worry what they say, it's no use getting worked up over it. It's their jobs to get people talking about what they say or write.
     
  21. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    I guess I just buy into Keith Law's view:

    You may hear that the Nationals "had to overpay" for Werth to get him to come to a team that hasn't been a winner. This is complete nonsense, perpetrated by agents to get more for their clients and by team executives to justify bad financial decisions. Free agents go to the highest bidder; if a losing team wants to sign a free agent, they simply have to offer more (factoring in taxes) than any other team is offering. Players like taking the most money. Agents encourage players to take the most money because it maximizes their commissions. The union encourages players to take the most money because it tends to pull up other players' salaries.

    The reason losing teams often miss out on premium free agents is that they don't bid enough, because their current revenue streams don't justify higher bids, or because they are not close enough to contention to merit increasing a bid in the hopes of boosting revenues for the coming year. Very, very few take pay cuts to go to contenders or major markets -- and besides, the last time I checked, Washington, D.C. was the ninth-largest media market in the United States, according to Arbitron, so let's stop pretending that the Nationals play in Podunk even if ownership sometimes acts like they do. Every offseason, we hear some losing team say they "had to overpay" to sign a free agent. We rarely hear some winning team come to the podium and say they got themselves a bargain because a top-tier free agent signed with them for 20 percent less than anyone else offered.

    And it's worth noting that if you as a GM or owner feel the market is forcing you to "overpay" for a free agent because your team isn't good, maybe you should improve your team first through the draft (where, I should point out, the Nationals spent money and added a lot of talent in 2010) and wait for that supposed free-agent premium to disappear. That is, if free agents don't want to come to your team because your team stinks, the first solution is to make your team better. Signing one premium free agent isn't the way to do it, because even if Werth matches what he did in 2010 -- away from Citizens Bank Park and no longer in a contract year -- by himself he won't turn the Nationals into more than a 74-win team.
     
  22. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

    1,516
    790
    113
    Jun 26, 2008
    So according to Law, nothing but the number of zeros on the contract matters, huh?

    Sorry, I'm not buying it, especially when the money is close. It might be true with some, but to act as though nothing else factors into a career decision is just flat out wrong, IMO.
     
  23. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    While I tend to side with Keith, especially since he has been in a MLB front office so he knows the interworkings more than most, I do agree that at times there are otherside reasons for going to Place A instead of Place B but for the most part players aren't turning down the most money just because a losing team is offering it to them.
     
  24. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

    1,516
    790
    113
    Jun 26, 2008
    So, you're offered 2 contracts - a 7 yr/$127 million deal from Washington and a 7 yr/$125 million deal from the Yankees.

    I know which deal I'm taking, what about you? According to Law, your next step is to begin looking at DC real estate.

    Really?
     
  25. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    Except the 7/125 deal with NY isn't $125,000,000 because NY has the highest state taxes in the US, I believe.

    Remember when Johnny Damon signed with the Yankees 4/52 million dollar deal instead of the Red Sox 4/40 million dollar deal and everyone was saying he went to the Yankees because he was going to make 12 million more. Well, again forgive me if I don't have the exact number, he only made 4 million more than what he would have made if he stayed in Boston due to the NY state taxes. That's why at the beginning of the offseason people were saying the Yankees would have to offer Cliff Lee about 16 million more (again I don't know if this was the exact number or not I don't remember) than Texas because of the tax.
     
  26. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

    30,718
    5,415
    113
    Jan 6, 2010
    Yet another reason on why the system as it stands is broken.....players are worried more about how much they will make pre-post taxes as opposed playing ball, in a place they want...
     
  27. Finfangirl

    Finfangirl Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

    10,340
    52,516
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    Bay Area, Ca
    This is my point exactly.....where does it end; if carl crawford can get 142 million, and carlos pena can get 10 mill a yr, where do we go from here. I am by no means an advocate for 7 yrs to any pitcher. I dont care who they are. 3 - 4 yrs is pushing it. Im really not worried or worked up, i just would like baseball to return to its minimilist form at some point. Baseball needs a cap.
     
  28. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

    30,718
    5,415
    113
    Jan 6, 2010
    This is where it goes....
     
  29. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    That's never going to happen but I don't even what to start that debate.
     
  30. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

    30,718
    5,415
    113
    Jan 6, 2010
    ?? Y?? Too many big market teams making too much money for the league in general....?
     
  31. Finfangirl

    Finfangirl Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

    10,340
    52,516
    113
    Dec 8, 2007
    Bay Area, Ca
    Im as huge a Yankees fan as there is.....I also wont complain when the owner of my favorite team puts the best product out on the field he can afford. But, i find it unacceptable in this day in age that baseball players can make 20 million or more a yr. I'm not however saying that small market teams cant compete. I think they can, and they choose not to. They get the luxury tax money and inturn the owners pocket it. Instead of taking thatmoney and re-investing it in the team. Just look at the padres; this team should by all means compete (with all the talent they've had), but because there owner is only interested in keeping salaries under 400,000 a yr, they are not ever going to compete. I believe there should be a cap both minimum and maximum. There can be exceptions for one or two players on a roster to make over a certain amount, but something has to happen.
     
  32. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    The NO confirmed Extension talk for AG and Sox is just fun to read......



    Mariners and Miguel Olivo agree to two-year, $7 million deal

    Last month the Blue Jays acquired Olivo from the Rockies for a player to be named later, declined his $2.6 million option for 2011, and then offered him arbitration, which means Toronto will receive a compensatory draft pick for losing a Type B free agent who never actually played for them.
    Pretty nifty move from general manager Alex Anthopoulos, who saw the value in holding Olivo’s rights even when the Rockies didn’t.
     
  33. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    Because baseball has one of the strongest unions in the country. They will never agree to it and baseball can't afford to have another lock out. Plus don't let these small market owners fool you, yeah they complain about playoffs and cry rich etc but they're the ones that also bump up the ticket prices, parking etc when the Yankees and Red Sox come into town.
     
  34. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    39,159
    21,798
    113
    Nov 29, 2007
    San Diego
    You guys all need to stop crying about money your team (not you) are spending, because I've got two words for ALL OF YOU.

    BARRY ZITO.


    I just threw up in my mouth a little.
     
    Finfangirl likes this.
  35. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

    15,112
    7,311
    113
    Aug 15, 2010
    Davie

    They just won a WS...they'll live
     
  36. King Felix

    King Felix Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    8,491
    3,623
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    olivo? best signing of the offseason


    sigh being a mariner fan is so discouraging
     
  37. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    Hey at least you didn't wake up and see your team signed Melky Cabrera and Jeff Francoeur....
     
  38. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

    13,500
    4,315
    113
    Dec 9, 2007
    Good news for the Reds and Jay Bruce as they agreed to a 6 year, $51 million extension. See this is how smaller market teams will be able to compete and keep their good young players.
     
  39. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL
    Those reputations are wrong for the most part. Navarro had a couple good defensive seasons, but he has not been good at all defensively the past couple seasons. He also is below average handling the pitching staff. Very inconsistent with that.

    Also, he's such a terrible offensive player, even if he was a good defensive catcher he doesn't deserve a ML roster spot.
     
  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,377
    37,301
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Padres signed AG to such a contract when it ran out he wanted Texiera money.
     

Share This Page