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Fuel to the fire for our substandard play calling: Tenn CB knew our routes pre-snap

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ToddsPhins, Nov 15, 2010.

  1. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    JMHO here ... While I like Sparano as a human being and coach, I just don't think he is very smart in terms of football ingenuity. And, I don't think that Henning has much left in the tank. One doesn't have to be young (see Dick LeBeau) but I am not convinced Henning is a good teacher - which is also the job of the OC.

    The fact is, the Dolphins offense has not been explosive since 1994. Both b/c of the QB position and b/c of ultra conservative play calling.

    I love what Nolan has brought to the D and the Dolphins D is what has kept us winning. And, I like the QB coach - though I think there's a mixed bag there.

    But, the level of variation in formations is pitiful. So, too, the particular plays called out of those formations. They are running their offense rather than attacking the defense and it's weaknesses.

    I suspect it's a combination of the QB position not being exceptionally smart (other than Penny - but his was a physical limitation) and the OC being far too predictable.

    The shame is, with a really good and aggressive OC, I think this offense has potential. It's not a throw the bomb offense but it can be very effective in the 20-30 yard range and be much more crisp and aggressive.

    They just don't play very up-tempo. A team doesn't have to throw deep passes to do that. They just need to be taught multiple plays and formations and get after defenses.
     
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  2. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    2002 is the year after he took over an offense that was near last in the league when they were coming off 1-15. 2006 is the year their entire offensive line was decimated by injuries and both delhomme and weinke were injured at times. in fact that was the year henning started running the wildcat i believe. those two seasons are outliers for a reason that has nothing to do with henning's coaching ability

    also if he's so out of touch and everyone knows what we're running, explain how we are consistently outscoring the top ten defenses we have faced as opposed to their average points allowed. The only top ten defense that we scored less than their average was baltimore. every other top ten defnese we scored more
     
  3. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    thats where i think henning can be criticized. i'm not sure how good of a teacher he is. i'm not sure if he can relate to his players anymore. i have no problem with his playcalling or at least very little. i would like him to attack a bit more at times but i understand his reasoning and if the results are we are outscoring the average points allowed by the top defneses in the league with a 2nd yr QB and an offensive line that cant run block I'm ok with that
     
  4. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Considering in SD he's scored:
    2007: 25.8 PPG (5th)
    2008: 27.4 PPG (2nd)
    2009: 28.4 PPG (4th)
    2010: 26.6 PPG (5th)
    I don't think he has to worry about it. I hope you're not comparing a Turner run offense to a Henning one. LOL. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Turner were running this offense.
     
  5. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    :lol:

    You realize they said the same thing when Turner was our OC???
     
  6. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Smart enough that Sean Payton tried to hire him as his OC?
     
  7. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    and yet we scored 29 points against them beating their average by almost 10 points and being the 2nd highest amount of points that defense gave up all year. I mean at some point you have to ask if you knew the plays how did we score 29 points. how bad is your defense if you know the plays based on formation and we still beat you by scoring 29 and how can you be so bad a defense and still be in the top ten in points allowed? and is it only marshall's routes that were known? was fasano running special routes, hartline? they both gained close to 100 yds each on sunday. it just amazes me that we have two 100 yd producers, score 29 points on a top ten defense on a day where we use three QBs and we are giving so much credence to this story. hell if we can score 29 points every week we should fax marshall's routes to the defense every tuesday if thats how easy it is

    as for the playcalling, once again it gets into the concepts where henning is going to call plays that attack the weakest links. thats his MO. That and pounding the ball which he has tried but really cant do this year. against zones he will try to stretch those zones to open up space. yes on any given play there are options that are predicated on the defensive alignments, zone vs man, straight blitz, zone blitz, etc. but during the qb meetings during the week the QBs and the coaches get together and basically hash out a plan and decide who they are looking to exploit. when you see this do this, when you see that do that, etc. so the QBs are looking to exploit certain matchups and they usually are going to look at going after those weak areas first. it may be covered, ok progress to the next option. obviously the game is too complex to just be able to dictate your will on every play. you are looking for certain spots when you can impose your will either through sheer force or chicanery. overall with what he has to work with i'm not sure there are ten offensive coordinators who couldve gotten more out of our group. Henne isnt at the stage where he can lead a high powered offense. Hopefully next year but this year the offense is limited because he is limiting though not as limiting as our run blocking which is the primary factor IMO of our poor red zone showing this year
     
  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Well, we played a Packer defense that was completely riddled with injury including Matthews.
    We played the Jets w/o Revis.
    We got 2 free FGs in the Steeler game off turnovers inside the 23 yard line. (Henning doesn't get credit for those. lol)
     
  9. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    you can make that type of argument for every game ever played in the history of football. has there ever been a game where teams suit up 100% of their players and no turnovers happen

    and we did that with a 2nd year starter at QB who has trouble against cover 2 and the red zone and a poor run blocking offensive line

    here i'll ask you a question. we're down to our 3rd string QB and have two injuries to our offensive line. How many points should we score. According to your logic here we should probably score about 7 points so if we score anymore would you consider that good coaching?
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
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  10. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Ok, but this is different. lol. At 113 years old, Henning I doubt will suddenly begin setting defenses on fire...... unless it's with a jug of gasoline and a match. :lol:
     
  11. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    So you agree that being able to predict a players' routes doesnt really indict the OC's ability? You've clearly shown that Norv Turner has had success doing this.
     
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Sorry, I thought you meant that people were saying the same thing about Turner (as in being a horrible OC). That's what I was commenting on. As far as the "predicting player's routes", I have no comment b/c I don't recall everything that happened then, nor have I heard if teams are currently able to predict his players' routes.
    To be fair, if an OC has averaged 19 PPG over 19 seasons AND players are saying they can predict our routes etc, then yes I believe it does indict the OC.
     
  13. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    So essentially you believe the premise of your thread to be irrelevant, you're just concerned with our scoring output?

    Also, do you consider points allowed when determining an OC's success, or just points scored?
     
  14. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    Back in Miami
    :lol:

    So opposing defenses being able to figure out and predict routes and play calls because we do little if anything to disguise packages does not fall on the OC?

    Who exactly would that fall under Stringer?

    It is in fact part of their responsibility.

    This conversation has reached laughable levels.
     
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  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    No, I don't believe the premise to be irrelevant. I actually changed my post before you replied b/c I haven't seen proof of Turner's offense in SD being predicted by defenders. If he was "predictable" in the past which led to a less productive offense, then that's entirely different and rather supports my argument of the predictability factor indicting the OC.

    Yes, I think points allowed can factor into an OC's success to a degree if we're specifically talking about an individual season, but after 19 seasons of 19 PPG with both great defenses and poor defenses, I think the points allowed factor bears little weight here.

    The bottom line in my eyes is that, when the dust settles, you have to score points to win..... and 19 PPG isn't anything to be proud of. It puts too much pressure on an entire team to perform at a higher & more efficient level. I don't think that points alone are the benchmark of a great OC, but at the same time I feel a consistent lack of them is a benchmark of a mediocre one.
     
  16. gilv13

    gilv13 Well-Known Member

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    To add on this point, I remember watching hard knocks, and watching Brian Schottenheimer work with Sanchez in QB meetings, and having him go as far as calling the plays in a preseason game to see the view from a coaching perspective. I could never see Henning do this.
     
  17. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    i'm beginning to think that Henning has so much fun dreaming up gimmick offenses & trick plays that he basically ignores everything else. :lol:
     
  18. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    + 1 if Finnegan had any brains he would realize he just made himself and entire secondary look like idiots. If I were a WR playing him the next game I would tell him " Hey, hope you guys know our plays too, would love to get over 300 yards passing, if ya need any help, ask me " :)
     
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  19. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO Henning uses to much max protect. That limits his route combination options and make his offenses more susceptible to being predictable. I don't think Henning has done a great job of using his backs as outlet receivers. He could occasionally mix in the backs and change up his protections to be less predictable without changing his overall philosophy. Unfortunately, he hasn't done that. This season our offense has been very predictable. I can recall three different games (out of the nine we've played) where defenders have come out and stated that our offense is predictable. That is horrendous. I can't recall that being said about any team that didn't fire their OC during or at the end of the year. All the complaints about the players and execution is superfluous and misses the point. The part that Henning directly controls has been failing far too often. To deny that three different teams saying your offense is predictable is anything but damning is just obstinate. Henning's play calling this year is clearly a large part of the problem. IMO its the largest part of the problem.
     
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  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    None of that counters anything I said.
     
  21. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    You know he read my posts on hitting the hook curls and middle of the field. That's where Fasano did the most damage.
     
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  22. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Nope. Marshall was in single coverage ALL DAY. The middle of the field and the hook curl are the natural deficiencies in zone coverages.
     
  23. Southbeach

    Southbeach Banned

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    Yeah, we know your routes but, it's still gonna take double and triple teams to stop them. Fasano and Hartline may have GREAT games (guess they did not know their routes) but Marshall will be stopped.

    The more I thinl of the outcome, the more I think that Henning was glad they knew what Marshall was doing. Did he keep the same routes on purpose? Who knows but, it sure as hell worked.
     
  24. AbideN703

    AbideN703 Yes, I'd hit it

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    And Tennessee still gave up 29 points. Suckers!
     
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  25. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Well i think its safe to say Thigpen wont be shy. Lets hope!
     
  26. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Would it matter if it did?
     
  27. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    First, you are incorrect in lumping the two statements together. One statement was about a quarterbacks progression as read by a safety. The other statement was about a receivers routes based upon alignment, splits, ect from a cornerback. From a defensive perspective, neither has anything to do with other.

    Second, what Ed Reed said was actually complimentary of the play of Chad Henne. Yes, it was complimentary. He said that the QB will not take risk with the football. He said that the QB will take what was given to him by the defense. Yet you took this comment and attempted to make it a derogatory comment. The flaw in your attempt to make it derogatory is the results ED REED saw from the game.

    So you took Ed Reed's comments and ran with it as he knew exactly where the ball was going on every play. Okay, let's play ball with that. The ball was thrown 34 times in the game. Now if Ed Reed knew where the ball was going for 34 passes, why did he have only one pass defense and one interception? And let us not forget that the interception was a gift from the receiver. He had four tackles for the entire game!

    Third, you are a sucker. Cortland Finnegan is the biggest trash talker in the NFL. You are just not accustom to seeing it or the results of it.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/6734564.html

    http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16243573


    So excuse me if I pay no attention as to what the nature of Finnegan's trash talk on the field. I did go back and watch the game again though. And from my observation, Finnegan had no clue as to where Marshall was going.
     
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  28. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    The Brandon Marshall response?

    [video]http://www.miamidolphins.com/video?bcpid=585645507001&bclid=260803762001&bctid=677794096001[/video]

    Obviously Mr. trash talk didn't even say it on the field.

    [video=youtube;g04aCp3ej-I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g04aCp3ej-I[/video]
     
  29. Merauder

    Merauder Perseverance

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    You know why he knew? Because Dan Henning is a predictable offensive coordinator. Not to mention he sucks. I guess Sparano finally told him to stop being a scared little ***** and open up the God damn playbook. I'm excited.
     
  30. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    [video=youtube;A9EP6U0BBrA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9EP6U0BBrA&feature=related[/video]
     

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