Tim Hasselbeck: Chad Henne will be fine

I would argue on how you can argue that. That was one of the worst passes I have ever seen. He threw it across his body and across the field. No quarterback should do that, unless the receiver is so open that there is no one near him. The wide receiver wasn't. Plus the fact that if Farve would have ran the ball, they would have been in decent field position to get the game winning field goal.

Of his last 7 season ending interceptions, last season was definately one of the more stupid.

 

Majority? Wrong.

 

You really haven't looked at those logs, huh?

Favre has had 9 playoff games with no INT's. He also has 44TD's in 24 playoff games.

Favre's playoff stats are better than Marino's. Was Marino a "choker"?

 

Personally, I think Favre is over rated. I wouldn't list him among the top 10 QBs. I would put him on the next tier below that.

As for the comparison between Henne and Favre, I don't see it. The only thing they have in common is a strong arm, a trait they share with about 100 other QBs. Their play styles are completely different. Favre is the gunslinger who throws TDs and INTs in bunches. Henne tends to avoid most risky throws. It is just recently that he's starting to trust Marshall, but Marshall is a guy who gives you an advantage most of the time whether in single coverage or even double coverage.

 

I was exaggerating. I'm just saying a majority of his games, he's cost the Packers a win with his amount of picks.

 

When people look at players their bias usually shines through. If you are being unbiased and consider ALL of Favre's accomplishments, MVP, game streak, records etc etc there is no way possible that he's not in the top 10 greatest list. There is really no argument about that. Sure you can have your opinion, but even opinions, without facts, can be wrong.

 

Honestly...the guy who reminds me of Brett Favre, minus the canon is Mark Sanchez.

Favre was much more agile then Henne...

Henne is never gonna be the gunslinger type, although he has the arm for it

 

You admit you're exaggerating but yet you make another exaggeration in this post. He's won way more games than he's lost. He's been the factor in more wins than losess for his teams. Again, stats back up my statements and disprove yours.

 

I didn't make my self clear. Playoff games is what I meant. I thought that was clear since I said to go look at his playoff game log.

 

I think your failure to look at the entire picture has you coming to the wrong conclusions.

People harp on the fact that Favre has had game ending INT's. Well, if the TEAMS he played on didn't always make it so he was always in a final last second drive, win it or lose it situation, would he still have those INT's? No.

I'll use Brady as an example here. He has never, not once, in his entire career, led his team to a come from behind win in the post season with a last minute TD drive. His teams have been good enough that he's been able to squeak by with FG's to win them.

On top of that, Favre is 13-11 in the post season. Again, that's better than Marino. Was Marino not a great QB? Hardly. It's just that both of these guys usually carried their teams into the playoffs.

People whine about his 7 game ending INT's.

Well, what about his 44 4th quarter game winning TD drives? That's right....44.

 

TED GINN???!??!?!?!?!?

lol Jk

 

Sure there are. The fact is that most of those accomplishments and records could be achieved by a good, but not elite QB who is very durable and surrounded by good talent (He actually was surrounded by great talent the one year he won it all). If you add in his likable personality and resultant popularity you get the remaining accomplishments. The fact is that 2009 was the only year that would be considered "great". Other than that he had about 3 or 4 "very good" years and 3 or 4 "good" years. The other 10 years average at best. Favre's strongest attribute is durability. That has value but it doesn't raise him to the level of top 10. People just get awed by the overall accomplishments produced by his longevity and forget that most years he was not even among the top 5 rated QBs in the league.

 

Man, you're so wrong on so much stuff here I don't know where to begin.

People "forget" because it just wasn't true.

Favre posted a QBR of 85 or higher 12 out of his 18 full seasons. (66%) Marino posted a QBR of 85 or higher 8 out of 16 full seasons. (50%) Marino had a QBR of 90or more 5 times while Favre had a 90 or more 9 times. Favre led the league in TD% 4 different times, Marino 2 times. Marino has a career 59% completion rating, Favre has a 62%. Take away Favre's last 2 full seasons and make his total years 16 and he still has more yards and TD's than Marino. Marino's INT% is 3.0 and Favre's is 3.3. They both have a 5.0 TD%. This means that Favre throws 1 more INT than Dan out of every 300 throws.

I can go on and on about these two and show you that they were both very similar. Different styles, but the same fire, leadership and game is evident in both. Now, I think Dan was a superior passing QB than Brett, however, there is not much else I'd put Dan ahead of over Favre.

 

He has 29 fourth quarter comebacks, not 44.

I'm not saying favre isn't a great QB. He is, imo. But, he has a tendency to choke, and cost his team games. Especially in the playoffs, where has 30 interceptions in 24 playoff games. Marino wasn't any better, either.

 

You didn't correct a single statement I made. I didn't compare Favre to Marino. They played in different systems. The West Coast offense tends to pad your QBR stats

I see an 85 QBR as good enough to win with but nowhere near elite. I would only characterize his 90+ QBR games as good and 95+ as very good. His only great year was 2009.

 

You're right, it's 29 4th quarter comebacks, my bad. Although, he does have 44 game winning drives.

Also, he doesn't choke. I explained why he has to carry his team and always is in the position to have to win it for them.

Also, Favre has 44 playoff TD's. It's not that Marino or Favre were bad in the playoffs, for the most part their teams were.

 

It doesn't matter what you think about QBR. The facts are anytime a QB posts an 85 or higher QBR he's playing at an elite level. (Especially in the early Favre/Marino era's.) In 1980, the average was 73.7; in 1992, the average quarterback had a rating of 75.3; and in 2004, a record-setting year for passers, the average was 82.8. Of course there are other factors involved, but QBR is a great place to start. So I did. Then I went on to compare Favre to one of the greatest QB's to ever play the game, Dan Marino. I showed that they both are very similar. You bring up WCO and I counter with Marino having a front office that was totally dependant on his arm and abilities. Do you not thik this "padded" Marino's stats? Of course it did. If Marino played on the Cowboys of the 1990's or the Pats of the early 2000's he wouild have won Super Bowls (Probably more than 3 on either team) but his stats would have been less.

 

The labeling of "elite" is a judgment. You claiming it as a fact just shows that you don't know what a fact is. In my judgment, Henne has been "good" this year, not "very good", "great" an certainly not "elite". His QB rating is 85.3. In fact, 17 QBs currently have a rating above 85 including such stars as Ryan Fitzpatrick and Seneca Wallace. I'm not ready to put them in the "elite" category. Nor do I believe that there are 17 QBs playing at an elite level.

And while Marino is my favorite player and arguably the best passer ever, he wasn't the best QB. He had weaknesses, one of which being he threw too many interceptions. And he wasn't protected by being in a short passing system that produced so much YAC. As for the SBs, I do think that Marino would have had one if he had been as fortunate as Favre was with his supporting cast, but IMO how many would have depended on whether he controlled his propensity for INTs. If I have a bias it is against QBs that throw INTs. Favre throws too many and b/c of the system that number was actually kept down some. Your argument that its okay that he ended his team's playoff hopes so many times under the pretense that he was the only reason they got there is ridiculous and unsupported. He was part of the reason they got there and he was part of the reason they failed. That part that stopped them from succeeding is the same part that stops him from being elite.

 

Does anyone give two ****s what Tim Hasselbeck says? Or Ron Jaworski, Trent Dilfer or any other washed up QB who works for that joke of a sports network?

 

You're cracking me up here.

Listen, when you talk about a player and whether or not they are "elite" or "all time great" you don't just go by 5 games in any random season. If that were the case Culpepper, because of his 2004 season, would be an elite QB. Also, I gave the average QBR's for different decades because as time has progressed, the league has become more passer friendly and thus average QBR's have risen. Does it mean anything to you that even when the average QBR was in the 70's, QB's like Favre ad Marino were posting 90's or even 100's?? Now, maybe I should have been more clear with my QBR of 85= elite. We were talking about Favre so I was talking about Favre's entire era. However, even in 2004 when the record high for QBR average was 82, Favre posted a 92.

So, are you saying that when a QB posts a QBR 20+ or even 30+ points higher than the league average they are not elite? Man, you sure are tough.

Now, to say that Marino wasn't the best QB, I can see your argument. However, it wasn't because he threw too many INT's. If anything I think Marino's attitude, meaning he had to ALWAYS be "the guy" was his only downfall and caused him to lose some games he should have won. He wasn't the ultimate team player. However, his INT% of 3 is about equal to the greatest QB in the game today, P. Manning, who has an INT% of 2.7. This means that Marino threw 1 more INT out of every 300 passes. Also, Marino played when CB's raped the WR's and thus made the throwing window much smaller than it is today. Marino didn't throw "too many" INT's.

Now, my point about Favre's season ending INT's are fully supported and nowhere near ridiculous. I think the mear fact that Favre is known for both game winning drives and throwing INT's to end games PROVES that the teams he played on were never really better than the competition they played against because they were ALWAYS behind in ther final minutes of the game. You say my point is unsupported yet you've failed to give ONE stat to support any of your drivel that Favre is not an all-time great QB. .

 

That's not proof, that's popular opinion. Those teams were also often behind b/c Favre threw interceptions that hurt them. You're the one that's claiming that those teams were behind b/c they lacked talent.

As for support for my opinion, the fact is that if you look at the all-time ratings in various categories Favre rarely makes the top 10.

ALL-TIME RANKINGS OF PLAYERS IN FOUR CATEGORIES
THAT DETERMINE NFL PASSER RATING
Minimum: 1,500 Attempts
COMPLETION PERCENTAGE Pct. Att. Comp.
Chad Pennington 66.06 2,469 1,631
Kurt Warner 65.50 4,070 2,666
Peyton Manning 64.80 6,531 4,232
Drew Brees 64.77 4,164 2,697
Steve Young 64.28 4,149 2,667
Tony Romo 63.44 1,857 1,178
Tom Brady 63.35 4,218 2,672
Ben Roethlisberger 63.29 2,411 1,526
Joe Montana 63.24 5,391 3,409
Carson Palmer 63.17 2,631 1,662
AVERAGE YARDS PER PASS Avg. Att. Yards
Otto Graham 8.63 1,565 13,499
Sid Luckman 8.42 1,744 14,686
Norm Van Brocklin 8.16 2,895 23,611
Tony Romo 8.10 1,857 15,045
Ben Roethlisberger 8.01 2,411 19,302
Steve Young 7.98 4,149 33,124
Kurt Warner 7.95 4,070 32,344
Ed Brown 7.85 1,987 15,600
Bart Starr 7.85 3,149 24,718
Philip Rivers 7.81 1,914 14,951
TOUCHDOWN PERCENTAGE Pct. Att. TD
Sid Luckman 7.86 1,744 137
Frank Ryan 6.99 2,133 149
Len Dawson 6.39 3,741 239
Daryle Lamonica 6.31 2,601 164
Sammy Baugh 6.24 2,995 187
Charlie Conerly 6.11 2,833 173
Bob Waterfield 6.00 1,617 97
Earl Morrall 5.99 2,689 161
Sonny Jurgensen 5.98 4,262 255
Norm Van Brocklin 5.98 2,895 173
INTERCEPTION PERCENTAGE Pct. Att. Int.
David Garrard 2.04 1,915 39
Neil O’Donnell 2.11 3,229 68
Donovan McNabb 2.11 4,746 100
Jeff Garcia 2.26 3,676 83
Mark Brunell 2.31 4,624 107
Jason Campbell 2.32 1,637 38
Tom Brady 2.35 4,218 99
Philip Rivers 2.35 1,914 45
Steve Bono 2.47 1,701 42
Rich Gannon 2.47 4,206 104

When I look at Favre I see a guy who despite being in a system that traditionally produced very high QBRs, only really had that one incrediblly high rated season. The one SB he won happened when he was supported by a very good team. The rest of the time he was a good to very good QB on a fairly consistent basis. In the playoffs, he was often great and horrid in the same game and on far too many occassions made a glaringly stupid decision that ended his team's chances. You can choose to define that as "elite". I choose not to. I don't have him in my all-time top 10. My top 10 would have the following QBs (in no particular order):

Manning
Montana
Unitas
Elway
Marino
Young
Graham
Brady
Staubach
Aikman

Some have great stats, some don't. But my opinion is based on more than just stats. All of these guys were arguably the best when they were playing. I see Favre as having accumulated stats b/c of his longevity and b/c of the system he played in, but I don't know that there was any year he played where I thought he was the best QB in the league. You, of course, are free to have your own opinion. I only have a problem when you claim that he's in the top 10 on a subjective list and that "there is no argument about that". That statement is flat out wrong.

 

Look over your stats again. You're cherry picking. When you us the QBR you're using ALL of the meaningful QB stats. What you tried to do was prove your point by picking a few stats and claiming that because is not top in any of them he isn't elite. However, according to your methods and stats, Tony Romo, Daryle Lamonica, Ed Brown, and Steve Bono are/were elite.

Now, as to your top 10 list you can have anyone you want on it, that is opinion, but when you try and say that Favre doesn't have numbers equal or better than some of your top 10 and then also say he's not elite you're showing either bias or lack of understanding.


I see you have Brady, Elway and Aikmen on your list? Talk about QB's who have some average to horrible numbers during parts of their career and who also were lucky enough to play on some of the best teams ever.


I have to say one thing about your list. Brady and Aikmen should not be on anyone's top 10. I'm not sure how old you are and Ii realize that the media has truly hyped Brady to know end (as they did with Aikmen) but both of these guys will go down as another Bradshaw. Which is, they were consistent game managers with brief flashes of greatness.

There are tons of top 10 lists out there and I have yet to see any with Aikmen, until your's.

Here is, IMO, the end all be all of top QB lists.

http://armchairgm.wikia.com/The_100_Greatest_Quarterbacks_of_the_Modern_Era,_Version_1.0


I agree with this list 99% and I agree with the method 99%.

Favre is number 9.

Aikmen is number 33.

Brady is number 54.

Manning is numebr 15.

All-time QB lists (with I think the exception of Favre because he's played for 20 years) should not have current playing QB's on them. I do think that Brady and Manning will finish higher than they are here, but it's too soon to say they are both top 10. I would speculate, at thier current rates, that Manning will finish top 10 and Brady will finish top 25.

 

I don't agree that the QBR is necessarily the best measure of all meaningful QB stats. I think it has several flaws and one particular flaw that's meaningful to this discussion is that it inflates the rankings of west coast offense QBs.

In my list I specifically said that they weren't all based on numbers. The arguments for Farve are largely based on stats. Even in the list you favor, Favre barely makes the top 10. On lists based just on the QBR Favre is a little higher. As I said earlier in this thread, I have Favre just outside the top 10. So really the list you provided only rates Favre about 3 spots higher than where I had him.

I also don't agree that Manning and Brady don't belong on the list but Favre does under some made up 'no active players unless they've almost played 20 years rule'.

We'll disagree on Aikman. I have seen him on several top 10 lists.

 

I never said that the QBR is the "best". However, it's the best place to start.

If Favre retired right now, do you think I'd change my stance on where he belongs on the top 10 list? If Manning retired right now, would you put him on your top 10? If Brady retired right now, would you put him on your top 10? If yes, why?

 

Fine you start there and when you finish Favre is a borderline top 10 at best and outside the top 10 if you feel he threw too many INTs and hurt his team too often.

Manning is easily top 10. Starting with his QBR, its an incredible 95.5. If you look at his QBR after his first 5 years it averages over 100. And during his prime he was always considered the best or second best QB in the league.

Brady makes it as well. His QBR is very good at 93.5. The multiple SBs is a plus and that first SB he did it on a team that was far from great. It wasn't all his doing of course, but he didn't torpedo his team either. And like Manning, Brady was always in the conversation as the best QB of his era.

 

beautifully said.

 

I would also agree that Manning makes the top ten list if he retires right now. However, if he plays for 6 more seasons and for some reason starts to look like JaMarcus Russell I may change my mind. That's why I don't like to put guys who are still playing on my list.

Brady was the conversation ONLY because of his team and coach. P. Manning has been the conversation in spite of most of his teams.

Brady was the talk because his teams have been great.

Let me put it this way, Joe Namath...a QB who SUCKED, is in the HoF. Why? Because of his one Super Bowl guarantee. Bradshaw, in his time, was talked about by the media as being the greatest ever. He's nowhere close.

IMO, after Brady retires he gets mentioned with QB's like Griese and Bradshaw. Manning will be mentioned with Unitas, Montana, Graham and Marino.

Check this out. Pro-Football.com has taken every QB to play in the modern era and compared them to each other.

Over Brady's career he has similar numbers to: Drew Brees, Roger Staubach*, Trent Green, Kurt Warner, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb, Jeff Garcia, Rich Gannon, Mark Brunell, Bert Jones (The * means that QB is in the HoF) He has some nice company there, but besides maybe Staubach, do you see a top 10 QB?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BradTo00.htm

Now, look at Manning's Career: Johnny Unitas*, Joe Montana*, Dan Marino*, Ken Anderson, Steve Young*, Dan Fouts*, Brett Favre, John Elway*, Roger Staubach*, Jim Kelly*

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm

See the difference? Notice who's career is similar to Manning's? FAVRE. Also, every single QB Manning is similar too is either in the HoF or will be. (Ken Anderson should have been in already. He was an awesome QB.)


In summary, Favre is an all-time top 10 QB on MOST people's lists.

 

I'll **** her. Tape it. Send it to her husband who once was a 43 overall in Madden.

 

No, I don't. Brady's rating is higher than Favre's and he has more SBs.

QB Rating
Favre 86.4
Brady 93.5

Brady will be among the top 10 on most people's lists when he retires and on those lists he'll generally be above Favre.

 

Brady's number's come in a time when the average QBR's are low to mid-80's. So, he's about 10-15 points higher than the average QB. On the other hand, half of Favre's QBR is from a time where average ABR was in the 70's. And during that half, Favre posted QBR's consistently in the 90's. So he's produced QBR's that were 20+ points higher. Also, look at All-Pro's. Brady has won 1 All-Pro based off of his first season with Moss where Bellycheat ran up the score on everyone. Favre has 3.


The problem is, you've drank the Brady-media-made-Kool-Aid. The facst don't lie. Brady compares to QB's like Mark Brunell and Trent Green while Favre compares to QB named Unitas, Marino, and Montana.


I didn't post the QB's he's compared to like I did for Brady and Manning:

Favre's comparable career QB's: Fran Tarkenton*, Dan Marino*, John Elway*, Johnny Unitas*, Joe Montana*, Peyton Manning, Warren Moon*, Ken Anderson, Dan Fouts*, Terry Bradshaw*


(Also, Super Bowls are TEAM accomplishments. If you want to say that Brady's TEAMS have been better I'd agree, they've won more Super Bowls. However, you can't use Super Bowls to prove that an individual is better. If that were the case, Dilfer, Hostetler and Johnson are Favre's equals and they are all better than Marino. Kinda stupid, huh? )

 

And Favre was playing in an offensive system that inflated his QBR at a time when not as many teams used the same system. You've drank the Favre kool-aid. I understand how that can happen after so many years of Madden stroking on MNF. The fact is that Brady's QBR is still higher than Favre's despite the system advantage that Favre had.

Basically, I don't agree with your comparison lists. And I don't agree that all of Brady's teams were better. Favre's lone SB came with a great team around him. All those playoff failures for Favre came when he didn't have a great team capable of overcoming his mistakes.