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Ben Volen's notes from day #10 of Camp Thiggy v White is heating up

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Aug 10, 2010.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...wn-goes-evan-oglesby-with-video-of-jake-long/

    Good for both of them, Pat White was supposedly unable to throw that route, Thiggy has the guts of a cat burglar and is not scared to throw into coverage.
     
  2. Wildcat23

    Wildcat23 Here kitty kitty

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    This is about the third straight day Ive heard good things about Wallace. I like it.
     
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  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    The scrubs are looking good.
     
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  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly, in fact most of the UDFA Wr's are good this year, Wallace has stood out, so has Marlon Moore and Taurus Johnson and Ryan Grice Mullen.

    What surprise me is DMart showed up 4 days ago and is already running with the #1 unit, he supposedly is a bit out of football shape so that makes it even more surprising.
     
  5. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

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    I can't wait to watch this battle for myself in preseason. Since Ginn's gone, Pat White has taken the role of exciting project guy, I really hope he is successful enough to remind people that a rookie quarterback shouldn't be written off based on 5 pass attempts and some poor practices performances. He seems to have been playing well for about a week now, hope that can help build some confidence heading into the Tampa game.
     
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  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Per Omark:

    Cam not playing on ST is a huge sign of how much progress he has made, coffee is for closers, ST is for mostly non starting players.

    Interesting mix of Returners, I suspect if Carroll shows he is explosive, the job is his to lose, a Db who is a good returner opens up roster slots if they can play in the nickel or dime package as well.
     
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  7. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    Good intel & thread, thanks for sharing it. Would love to see Carroll become the KR/PR to open up a spot for another good player we want to develop.
     
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  8. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I never believed that White couldn't make that throw. The fact is that he did it college and then he did it at the combine. At the combine it was easy to compare his throws to the other prospects and IMO and the opinion of many QB experts there he looked the best. Now, why so many of his passes in practice and his few attempts in games since have looked like dog crap is anybody's guess, but it's clear the passing ability is in there.

    Dmart moving up so quickly tells me more about how bad our other TEs are than how good he is.

    And you're right, Cam being taken off STs is a strong indicator that he's just about sewn up the starting spot.

    Has anybody heard how Carroll has looked on returns? The only thing I've seen is that one blurb in today's notes that says he returned the missed FG to the 50.
     
  9. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    A bit late, but I "think" I know a bit about Pat White, we see a struggling to adjust 3rd string Qb, imho in White's head he is "NCAA all time blah blah Qb" and the dramatic switch from "all time blah blah" to "after thought 3rd string Qb hoping not to be cut" is in his head.

    That is why I want to see what Pat can do when his professional back is against the wall, if he stinks it up Saturday, that is the culmination of everything, if he comes out and makes plays, maybe his competitive nature will overcome his injured pride and confidence?



    I had thought this would be Joey Haynos's breakout season, but Dmart, if 100% means Haynos is the #3 Te.

    And it means Nalbone goes back to the practice squad, and Sperry is in deep trouble imho.

    Coffee is for closers.

    Not so much, I do have the impression that there is the usual preseason logjam at the Returner position so Carroll has had limited tries, that return of the missed FG is important as Carroll is a 4 core ST player, the fact he was back there for it means they are trying to get an idea of how he would handle that situation.
     
  10. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but my guess was that he just wasn't that great of an athlete compared to NFL players. I thought he had an advantage in college that he no longer has. I think he was facing that adjustment at the same time as he was facing the typical adjustment that every spread QB has to go through.


    IMO our TE talent was poor outside of Fasano. I thought/think that the chances of any of those guys breaking out was/is 1/1000.


    Agreed, it's definitely a good sign for him.
     
  11. jim1

    jim1 New Member

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    I think that messing with Pat White's glove was a mistake, as I do Cameron messing with John Beck's motion. I'm not at all a fan of altering a QB's throwing motion- so much can be tied into it, including confidence. Imo you just don't mess with it. Tebow might prove to be the exeption, we'll see. Your'e right Rafael, PW was throwing the ball pretty darned well at the Senior Bowl- I doubt that he forgot to throw a football well over the last two years. The only other thing that I can think of is hand size (a la Alex Smith) and the size difference between the college and pro balls. I don't know what PW's hand size is or if that could be a factor.
     
  12. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I wouldn't feel safe having Carrol as punt returner. That is a different beast all together. I would rather have someone who has been a punt returner in the past.
     
  13. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    White's hands are actually larger than Henne's.

    Pat has two games to show what he can do, and even then, a fumble the "D" playing poorly bad snaps, could derail his opportunity to show it.

    TBH what bugs me is White was fassst at WVa, and against top Defenses, he has yet to really show that explosiveness for the Phins.
     
  14. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Good to hear that about Cameron Wake; it does sound like he's got a decent hold on the starting spot. I also think it's somewhat telling that Nolan Carroll is back deep on a field goal attempt - just one more opportunity to showcase his return skills. At this point I almost hope he takes the KR job just so it frees up one more roster spot.
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    the perfect spiral for thirty yards by ronnie is something that I have been seeing evolve in his mechanics since last year..I know its sounds strange, and ive said it before, but he's getting better..

    If this Talent can throw some quick passes with some accuracy and most importantly some resemblance of consistency, he, and the formation will be lethal..
     
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  16. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    White isn't slow, but he's never been "fast"..... he was elusive, in college. In the pro's he's an average, smallish athlete. And altho he is a gamer.... that may not be enough

    If we start the season with him as our number 2...... he will arguably be the worst back up in the NFL. Him beating out Thigpen is NOT a good thing
     
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  17. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    And this is the direction we should be heading.... no need for a Pat White or that Wild Pat stuff. Ronnie makes that formation go in a way that White never will...... Pat White will never be the dual threat he needs to be to supplant Ronnie Brown. Ever....

    Otherwise....shelve that stuff and go fully with the base
     
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  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    An improvement in speed and quickness is one of the things I'm looking for from Pat White this preseason JS, I suspect that at WVa he just wasn't pushed to develop himself the way he needed to be developed.

    I posted that study comparing Kory Sheets speed to Chris Johnson's, but a part of that study also found that at 1-10 yds, White was no quicker than Devone Bess.

    And that won't be fast enough for his role and his size, he HAS to be quicker than DBess.


    Eh, let them compete, the better White plays if they decide not to keep him, the higher his value in a trade, if he is trade able.

    Looking forward to Saturday night, especially if Penny won't play as imho both Thiggy and White have major question marks.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Quickness and speed are not the same thing.
     
  20. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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  21. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I think Pat White went through the same thing as John Beck in a sense his rookie year. Namely, being a small player, he wasnt quite ready for the size and speed of the NFL. I think it caused him to panic when he threw. He was overloaded with adrenaline. He seemed to run ok. Jets, Patriots, etc..The key to me will be watching his demeanor. If the game is slowing down for him he should be able to relax when he throws and if he can relax, he can be an alright passer. He will never be a starting caliber QB but he wasnt drafted to be that. Anyone who watched him in college knows he isnt as bad a passer as he showed last year and thats really the key to him developing into our version of Kordell Stewart
     
  22. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Edit: Him beating out Thigpen is NOT possible. Here's Jim Mora talking about White's performance vs the Steelers:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tie0tz7jGDI"]YouTube- ‪Jim Mora Saints rant (better quality)‬‎[/ame]
     
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  23. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    And this is my problem with him...... and why it makes more sense to make him a WR/ multi purpose player. He's always going to have trouble getting beyond the LOS as a runner. You need either speed or power.....he lacks both
     
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  24. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    The bold and enlarged is the key though.

    I don't mean to bring this conversation back up but I still don't think you can draft a backup quarterback and/or a slash player in the second round. If he's an explosive player, ala this years Dexter McCluster, then its understood but Pat White is not that. I posed this question on Twitter the other day and I ask the same here; some of us wanted Julian Edelman in that same draft but with a later pick. Would you still have drafted White in the second if you could get Edelman in the later rounds? Not in hindsight, just pretend you're sitting in the War Room and making the decision to draft or pass up on White. Do you pull the trigger? Personally, I don't. Why? Because I don't draft players that are going to be backups in the second round.
     
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  25. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    although I agree with you about being drafted in the 2nd rd as a WTF moment, Ive learned long ago that GMs simply dont care where the public is on these things. You have seven draft picks and at the end of the day they all are equal. You could draft busts with your first two picks and if you draft five starters with your last five you still had a good draft. Rather than viewing Pat White as a 2nd rounder, view him as a 4th rounder which is where he should have been drafted. View Hartline as our 2nd rounder. If the draft had shaped up that way noone wouldve been complaining about Pat White. You dont hear anyone complaining about Lionel Dotson? People get too hung up on draft rounds.
     
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  26. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The thing with White, and really Pat Turner, is I have not seen enough from either out on the field, to say one way or another.

    Can White be a Starting NFL Qb?

    I do not know, so that means "no", that is how the NFL works, it is a show me league, if you don't know then the answer is "no".

    It is up to Pat White to change that to a "yes", I'd say I've seen a total of 15 passes from him including preseason 09, he looked like a Rook Qb who was somewhat smallish to my eyes, decent arm but put to much air under his couple of long passes, and whose on the field quickness was not as advertised.

    It's Yr 2, he is in a battle with a Qb that I can say "yes" to whether or not he can play Qb in the NFL, Pat White has a shot at showing he is a "yes" guy as well.

    I do think Sparano's rules for Qb's do not suite White's game, but thems the breaks in the NFL.

    I noticed a pic on the PBP blog today, Tuna and Irish were in the Bubble and both were clearly considering something as they looked out on the field..
     
  27. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    It's not really about the public's opinion here, IMO. The question I think that has to be asked is where does this player fit and how will he help me in the future? That question has to be asked by the man calling the shots, which is Jeff Ireland in our case. Put yourself in Ireland's shoes and ask yourself those two questions. I do the same and I don't get an answer that justifies me selecting Pat White in the second round. However, you may. If you get a different answer, I'd be interested in reading about it.


    No, I don't think they are equal. You are investing more money into the higher picks, you are assuming that those higher picks will be the core or the step to building a foundation for your football team. If you blow early picks, I guarantee you that you will not achieve success at its peak. If you blow late picks, I think your chances of achieving success at its peak are not as low as blowing an early pick. If you hit on early picks, you're doing your job right. If you hit on late picks, that's icing on the cake. If you miss on early picks, you're not doing your job right. If you miss on late picks, you're still not doing your job right but the odds are against you, anyhow.

    I actually do have an issue with Lionel Dotson. I don't think he's very good.

    And you bet your *** I would be still complaining about Pat White if there was another player available that could have helped this team more. I think gadget players are for later picks. We already had Chad Pennington on the roster as a backup. Why not select someone late as a future backup and groom him.

    Just my two cents.
     
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  28. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    That is where things grow fuzzy Alen, #2 picks should not be backups*

    *Unless they are Quarterbacks that you plan to develop.

    And that is where things become bizarre with Pat White, they traded for Thiggy in wk #4 or so, but then resigned Pennington, why in the heck would you draft a developmental Qb that you thought you could use in special packages that season while they developed, then basically abandon that vision in less than a calendar yr?

    That makes as much sense as Irish saying "we traded Ted Ginn because it would not have been fair to him in terms of development if we kept him".

    Sometimes I think there is a 5% off the wall factor in the Parcell's Regime in Miami, every now and then, Roth, Ginn, White, there is a bit of a Alice in Wonderland factor in some decision making...

    Imho some of the moves that are made have the feel of a faction telling the other faction "told you so", or there is someone with a very hot temper in the decision making process.
     
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  29. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    And by GMs, he actually means Al Davis. :pointlol:
     
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  30. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    And with their first round pick the Raiders select kicker Sebastian Janikowski of Florida State. FTW!
     
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  31. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I dont think you'll find anyone who wanted to draft Pat White in the 2nd round other than the supposed rumors that Belichik wanted too. It is what it is. They got juiced on the idea of supercharging the wildcat with a Kordell Stewart type of player. What do they run the wildcat percentage wise? 15% 10%? If he works out maybe they increase that to 20%. The key is if he works out as a new weapon. If he doesnt obviosuly it isnt worth it. If he does who cares if he was a second rounder. I wanted Everette Brown but he was picked one pick before us. Maybe they did too and just defaulted to pat white. I dont think they liked Clint Sintim or Conner Barwin otherwise they wouldve probably been dolphins




    you can blow a first rounder every five years. It wont kill you as long as the other four years you hit. Look at Vernon Gholston. The guy has done nothing two years in a row. It hasnt killed them. Why because they hit on Revis, Ferguson, Mangold and maybe Sanchez. A good draft is two starters, a very good draft is three and a great draft is four. In any given year it doesnt matter what round they are drafted in.
     
  32. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    neither pat white nor turner has shown anything to date. well white showed he could run a bit last year. white has the preseason to prove he can be two threat option in the wildcat they envisioned when they drafted him. might as well give it to him and not trash him for the next four weeks. Let it play out and then we can decide whether to cut him or develop him further. Thigpen seems to still be an interception machine and Pennington seems to have a dead arm so its not like we should be abandoning players just to placate their critics. We probably have the same view in that have no expectations and see how it plays out. The reports make it seem he's improving day to day so lets see what he brings to the table this year. A couple of TD passes out of the wildcat in the preseason and he might rise like the phoenix
     
  33. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    I disagree.... the first couple rounds should be considered premium picks and unless you have a loaded roster coming off a SB appearance, you don't roll the dice with them or use them to draft situational or specialty players. You don't spend on luxuries when you have gaping holes to fill.

    Drafting irresponsibly like that is what found us at the bottom of the heap.... and even if this FO does it only on occasion, it could very well be what keeps us from ever being a serious contender.

    It's nice to be hitting on your later picks but in most cases you don't find stars there or core players..... those are generally found in the earlier rounds. And hitting on them is a must if you're going to be a contender.

    You can't view Pat White as a 4th rounder no more than you can view Ted Ginn as a 4th rounder.... You have to get value from your premium picks, you just have to..... because there are consequences.
     
  34. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    what are these consequences you speak of. We are getting better every year under Ireland. Did drafting Pat White ruin this team for the next five years? No. He made up for it. The best draft in the world is only going to net you four starters. We got three last year. Who would you have drafted in his place.
     
  35. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Ok but........ you also have to ask yourself what if they had hit on him or what if they had chosen a player that did pan out?

    How much better off would they be? How much closer would they be to being a contender?

    You can't just dismiss it....
     
  36. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    What if they chose a player who was a drug addict? What if they chose a player who was so bad that he got cut in the first week of practice?
     
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  37. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    five starters two years ago, four starters last year. they've earned the right to be weird
     
  38. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    The consequences are that when you miss with premium picks you leave yourself with holes to fill..... you find yourself drafting and spending double on positions and that leaves you short of being able to fill other holes.

    Drafting Pat White on it's own may not kill you........ but if you burn more second rounders than you hit on... THAT will kill your chances. And hoping to make up for it on later picks is a faulty strategy.

    Bottom line is that it was irresponsible use of a 2nd round pick..... it was a draft day taboo, just like spending a top ten pick on a KR/WR project. You just don't do it, period.

    Who would I have picked?

    Once Everett was gone. I didn't like being in that slot......standing pat I would have probably taken Barwin or Smith.

    What I wanted to do tho, is move up, back into the first round.....or further up in the second.

    Aside from what I wanted.......it's not like there weren't choices.... move up, down or hell even do like the Pats and trade it for a better pick next year.......or even better, use it on Miles Austin and that 2nd round tender. It's not like they weren't familiar with him.

    I agree with you tho........ I expected Everett to be there and I can't remember but I believe the Panthers jumped us to take him. I also believe that when he was gone, they said the hell with it and gambled on White.
     
  39. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Regardless...... they wasted a top ten pick. You can't sit there and tell me that had they hit on that pick, it wouldn't have added to their team, made them stronger.
     
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  40. jetssuck

    jetssuck I hear Mandich's voice...

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    Well does that describe EVERY player available not named Vernon Gholston?

    You can make up all the "what if's" you want..... there are always consequences to whiffing on premium picks. Especially top ten picks...

    Let's say the lights come on for Gholston this year and he makes the Pro Bowl..... you gonna tell me that won't make a difference on that team?
     
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