exactly! don't want to be an apologist for Grove. he doesn't need one. however he was 'Williamized' by a needy raiders football team in the same way Ricky w/abused earlier by the Dolphins neither suffered permanent damage, no major surgeries the guy plays through pain & injury: missed a normal amount of starts for a non-surgical high ankle sprain & still managed to put time in the line-up regardless of the ankle injury
the Orca-5 will eat defense alive & lead us to the Holy-Grail in 2010 I see a KillerWhale feeding frenzy w/ blood in the water starting w/game one this is going to be one exciting season can't wait for the jets to crash-land in our waters
I'm not sure why everyone is so down on the OL rotation idea, its not like its been tried before on any large scale. Am I missing something? I'm not sure thats what we're planning though, I think they just want as many good OL as they can find, so that when the inevitable inuries occur, theres no dropoff in talent. I mean, we're supposed to be this big, physical, smashmouth team, but last year it was us who wore down. Grove, Smiley, Carey, Thomas, Fasano, Ronnie, Cobbs, Ricky, Pennington were all injured or hurt for significant stretches, so adding depth is definitely the way to go IMO.
Friend dolfan7171: basically one big BadAss, super intelligent, flesh-eating Dolphin, they sit atop the aquatic food chain having no natural enemies or threats they are the top predator of the seas, the AlfaWolves of all the oceans they live & work in pods (teams) http://www.whale-images.com/info/killer-whale-facts.htm
flipper somehow conjures up visions of comedic friendliness w/ the KillerWhale (Orca) there are no such misleading connotations end of the flipper/orca thing for me. whatever floats your boat GoFish!
Agreed something better is needed.. I dunno what but something menacing and fearful something that can't be stopped and will steam roll you all day long.. Orca sounds weak and fishy..
That's not true. It's actually been tried many times. IIRC it was Paul Brown who first used the "messenger guard" system to shuttle in plays way before there were headsets in use. It's been used by just about every team at some point and abandoned after one season. Most recently (and closest to home) the Dolphins tried it in 1999 when they rotated Gogan and Donnelly. They cited all the same arguments that the 23rd is saying now about keeping guys fresh for the long season. They said it would work b/c they were both starting caliber guards and b/c they were veterans (an advantage we don't have now). It worked so well that Gogan was released the following year and they talked about how the rotation system robbed the OL of continuity. So that's why some people are down on the rotation idea, they remember the history of football. It's been tried repeatedly. And every time the proponents cite the same advantages and the same failures occur. I'm sure if they try it again it will be abandoned again and in another 5-10 years somebody will bring up the idea again as if it's something new.
about this, that & the other: 1) I believe all anyone owes the forum is honesty, respect, civility & consistency. the concept of the Orca-Five falls within these parameters. some people like the name, some people don't. it is simply how I refer to our front offensive line. if you have a handle you'd like to hang on this unit, do it. express yourself, its your right to do so...& makes the forum a little more interesting, colorful. 2) for years I posted on other forums predicting the return of the SingleWing (WildCat) to football @ the NFL level. Got the same flack then as I'm getting now. however, in the end it has made a return. how did I figure this out? well, if you wait long enough what was old becomes new or a variation on it. I figured that the NFL defenses would take a while to catch on & even when they did figure it out, it would still be an excellent RedZone or ChangeUp system. in sports, as well as life everything changes, the trick is to change with it. 3) the line rotation concept is just another guess on my part @ the old returning to football w/ a twist, I based it on a number of things that are happening & have happened to our team. I have no contact w/ the FrontOffice or CoachingCadre, no inside information. I am not a pundit of the game, just another fan. like the SingleWing idea, it is only a speculation, an educated guess, an opinion. do w/it what you see fit. think about it, don't think about. criticize or create w/it. I give it to you in conversation on our board to make things interesting, creating civil discourse, provoking excitement & maybe some ideas amidst the Doldrums of the NFL. 4) got a good run out of the thread & (for me) it has served its purpose. hope you've enjoyed it up until now as much as I have enjoyed watching it develop. this is my last post on the thread. I leave it w/ a prediction: you will see a regular rotation in some form, during the up-coming season on our offensive line.
Rotational guards, Rotational OLB's ,Rotational Safeties. We all saw it last year already.....until they find what they are looking for i don't see it ending. If we had two great players as our Guards they would be rotating as much as Long and Carey.
I don't think there will be a 'rotation' per se, but to have adequate backup guys is paramount along the OL. We've suffered several times in the last few years due to inadequate backup personnel along the OL. Remember it takes 53 good players to make championships come... I like the additions and subtractions along that line they've made. I also don't see Grove going too far. Berger is 'ready' for a starting position, but Grove is still the better option...
If anyone has the opportunity to go Salmon fishing in the oceans of the great Bay of Alaska. You would see the majestic excellence of what a killer whale pod looks like. Simply put, these are not your regular fish folks. To see pod after pod after pod swim right past your boat and look them in the eye and you just know you are nothing but a visitor in their land and if you fall in the water, you are just a snack for their babies, who are always close to Momma Orca. Honest, I have had this pleasure a few times, they are surely Majestic creatures of the deep and most certainly at the top of the aquatic food chain. They have no rivals, they ate them all.
Tell that to all the sportswriters that still call the dolphins the "fish". Big difference between this: and this:
I have seen the light.. I am now all for the Fins being called ORCA-5 Smart, Fast, and Dominant... Im now more edumacated. and the Dolphin (Fish) is a GREAT thing to catch me and my grandfather went fishing all the time in the ocean off Palm Beach and we would catch these all the time.. Beautiful and when you pull one up a bunch more follow it up.. We had like 10 poles in the water catching them! Using Benetta as bait...
Why is it so much harder to rotate OL than DL? That's the big question... Orca-5, you're my bro but that name just sounds like a obese boy-band! LOL!
starting-quality offensive guards can be rotated w/o compromising the integrity & movement of the line just a matter of reps. in our case we have three guards that fit the prescription & all three have experience playing both the right & left guard positions: Richie Incognito, Donald Thomas & Dimitri Tsoumpas if they wanted to rotate in sets, Nate Garner would do we have the depth & quality on the OL to make it work
OL relies more on working as a unit than DL. On the OL if one guy screws up the whole unit looks bad. On the DL if one guy screws up and the play isn't being run directly at him then it may be no big deal. Even if it is run at him, a great play by another defender may bail him out.
In 1999 we had two starting quality guards that were rotated and it compromised the integrity of the line. While I agree that it is a matter of reps, it's not possible to get enough reps for a rotation system in one season. Normally, it takes the same five guys well into the second season to start playing as a unit. So it usually takes some luck (meaning no injuries for a couple of seasons) to get an OL to really gel. If you're rotating those guys then you probably have to more than double it and in today's NFL you're very unlikely to be lucky for that long.
Well, I'd like to nominate Joey Haynos for membership into the pod 23, he is basically a Tackle with a Te number, is 6/'7 280...what is he lacking for membership? Or is he more of a playtpus?
As has been mentioned several times the rotating guards in 1999 were starter quality. In fact, they were more highly touted than the ones we have now. Also Boudreau was a highly regarded coach. It seems like you're trying to pretend it will be different now without any real reason behind that belief. If you want to just say it will work b/c you want it to, that's fine. But don't pretend that it's something new that hasn't been tried unsuccessfully a hundred times.
Friend rafael: maybe you're right about it not being workable in the NFL. just something I conjured up, speculating on why so many resources & money have been invested in the offensive line. seemed like over-kill to me unless they intended to use them for more than backups & competitive markers. could have spent the effort/money somewhere else more effectively. why draft another guard when we have a need @ TE & FS? start to pick it apart & it becomes obvious there are reasons behind this collection of offensive linesmen. considering the tragedy that befell the pod last season, I began to think: got @ least four starter-quality guards. why? What are the possibilities? a possible answer: use them in 3 man rotations or rotate them in sets (right & left). keep them fresh throughout the game & season, while maintaining maximum pressure on the defensive line. would wear down the opposition w/o spending our our own pieces. it has worked before & could be introduced successfully w/ the right coaching & quality investment. usually takes a few months & games before the offensive line has gelled or has its timing, confidence, whatever honed to the point of good play. However, there is a reason why they pay guards less money to play. it is much easier to plug in an offensive guard than a BookEnd or CenterPiece. w/o going into great explanations, I will simply say: if they are all of starter quality & receive the reps & attention in practice, it is doable. its just an idea. one that has been successful outside the NFL before & whose time may have come in the NFL in the form of the Orca-5. just threw it out there to brighten up the board. it could happen. heard the same arguments for years about the SingleWing & now we have the WildCat. things happen, things change. you just never know w/Bill Parcels maybe you're wrong about it not being workable in the NFL.
IMO the goal has to be to have 7 or 8 OL who are starter quality. The '72 Dolphins had starter quality players at back-up positions (pre-FA), thats part of what helped them go undefeated. Reality is that football is a violent game where injuries happen so you have to prepare for that. It's possible that a rotation system could work, but based on the fact that it's been tried and tried and tried for the last 40+ years I don't see the odds as good. I just took issue with the implication that this was a new idea. I also noted that the arguments for it hadn't changed. And seeing how the reasons that it's failed in the past are unchanged I don't think it's likely that this coaching staff would follow that plan. IMO if we're rotating guards this year it will be b/c they haven't found one guy they feel is good enough to keep the starting job rather than b/c they feel many players are good enough to be starters. And the single wing was successful b/c defenses hadn't practiced against it and b/c it provided a numbers advantage in the run game against defenses geared more to stop the pass. I have yet to hear any new reason or any change that would make a guard rotation successful now compared to the past.
Friend rafael: if I gave you the impression that it was my original idea, I apologize there has been no original thought since the Classical Greeks I simply bring it up as a possibility not a certainty, just a thought it has been tried many times before w/success @ the college level don't be surprised if it jumps up & bites you this year. it could work. in my last post to you (last paragraph) I wrote: "its just an idea. one that has been successful outside the NFL before & whose time may have come in the NFL in the form of the Orca-5. just threw it out there to brighten up the board. it could happen. heard the same arguments for years about the SingleWing & now we have the WildCat. things happen, things change. you just never know w/Bill Parcels" I thought that clarified everything unless it went unread!
You seemed to imply (or flat out say) that the reasons it could work now were different, that there had been some change. In fact you keep saying "things change". I pointed out that the reasons you presented were failures in the past even though the participants were actually more established starters and the coaches were just as accomplished. I asked you if there was some new basis for your belief that it would work now. All you keep saying is that it could work and that it worked in college. But that's nothing new as it has worked in college for years. I'll agree that it could work just b/c anything is possible, but your statement brought no clarification beyond you want it to work. What change or changes are you referring to?
"All you keep saying is that it could work and that it worked in college." well, that's pretty much the way I see it. then, we're in agreement? whatever... you make a good argument as always. just have to wait & see. the second shoe to fall is called: it is a possibility it is what it is yes, it could work and has worked successfully @ the college level... you-want more of an explanation? got to go back to the beginning, nothing terribly complicated: I mentioned this several times last season when our offensive line sustained multiple injuries: 1) Sparano wants to maintain two, interchangeable sets of starting-caliber offensive linesmen & has proven willing to make the investment in time & money to do it. 2) Although, it flies in the face of conventional wisdom, it can be done & is apparently in the process of being done. I believe it will pay big dividends in the second half of the season when the trenches traditionally begin to wear down, suffering injuries & fatigue. 3) the war is won or lost in the trenches & the offensive side of those trenches sets the pace for the rest of the team during a game right from the opening play. 4) using a rotation system, especially @ Guard will maintain the lines integrity throughout the game. 5) I think it is a good strategy, if that is in reality where he's going with it. look for seven or eight, not five quality starters in the Orca for 2010.