I mentioned this several times last season when our offensive line sustained multiple injuries: 1) Sparano wants to maintain two, interchangeable sets of starting-caliber offensive linesmen & has proven willing to make the investment in time & money to do it. 2) Although, it flies in the face of conventional wisdom, it can be done & is apparently in the process of being done. I believe it will pay big dividends in the second half of the season when the trenches traditionally begin to wear down, suffering injuries & fatigue. 3) the war is won or lost in the trenches & the offensive side of those trenches sets the pace for the rest of the team during a game right from the opening play. 4) using a rotation system, especially @ Guard will maintain the lines integrity throughout the game. 5) I think it is a good strategy, if that is in reality where he's going with it. look for seven or eight, not five quality starters in the Orca for 2010.
agreed...where is the only place you can truely control the game....the OL....its controls everything about football, tempo, the clock, whether you win, lose....it is wise to invest heavily in that... Who replaces Long if he couldnt go one game??
Carey moves to left tackle & Murtha or Nate Garner to right if the center goes down or needs a break Berger or Incognita enter...
I think he starts @ RG, but would probably move to center and berger would slide to RG if something happened to Grove, ...or something along those lines.. 23rd is right, there is a pretty darn good amount of depth along the o-line and it seems that most of the backups can play several positions.
Friend finyank13: I think he will along w/3 others guards the guard will be the key to the rotation having said that I think he will be used @ center as well Incognito has a tremendous upside & is a fit he will be there
all starting caliber guards: Thomas, Incognito, Dimitri & Nate Garner only real question: which two get the first nod in any given game they will compete & prepare on a weekly basis competition is the elixir of success depth in competition guarantees it
i love having depth on the OL but using a rotational system there is just a bad idea. leave that to the DL. You want your OL to gel and play together as much as possible. I remember last season can't recall which game but we were rotating OL and something ridiculously stupid happened like we didn't get on the field in time. anyone recall? Anyway rotate DL to keep them fresh. Keep the same five offensive lineman in the game at all times except if there is an injury
Friend Killerphins: it is conventional wisdom you may be right but nothing is edged in stone rotating guards that are of starter quality is very doable & probable look for seven or eight interchangeable pieces it could pay big dividends in the later part of the year remember our head coach is a linesman & Parcells has always been all about the trenches innovation is the mother of tomorrows game
I would like to see it implemented successfully. Having rested players never hurts but like Killerphins stated, I hope it doesn't interfere with the gelling process. I also want to add that I generally like your post and opinions 23rd but I to don't care for the Orca 5 nickname either.
some people like the name, others don't can't please all the people all the time however it is what it is & won't change in my posts the Orca-5 it's not meant to be an imposition or slight certainly not worthy of so much attention
I never really thought about whether I like Orca-5 or not, but I will say, you will have to change up your sig 23rd......and possibly change it every week....
granted the names will change frequently but not the concept of the pod. it is immutable props to my very talented & good friend, the Vengeful Odin, for his creativity & fine art work in creating the logo need/want information? go to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale now lets get back to the thread. this subject w/reviewed & discussed @ length a long, long time ago the Orca-5 & Pod remain
I agree. The rotation system on the OL has been used a few times and I can't remember it ever being successful. I think the value of maximizing the time they play together as a unit outweighs any benefits of trying to keep them fresh. IMO the goal should be to find the starting five and hope they're healthy all year. And if they're not, that the back-ups are good enough that they can be plugged in with little drop off. It seems like we have enough talent to do that everywhere on the line except for LT. But I don't think we can expect to find another T of Long's calibre to sit on the bench.
hasn't been tried & implemented by Parcells & Sparano maybe it never will, however, it appears to be on the horizon just a matter of practice & timing to make it work certainly there will always be a preferred set to play there will always be the best left & right guard right up until they are worn down or injured the game has changed in its physical demands tandem running backs were an oddity not to long ago things change!
I'm not sure if you were responding to my post, but if you were then it's only a rotation system in case of injury. The goal and the hope is that it won't be a rotation system.
no it wasn't the response to your post. this is the response: hasn't been tried & implemented by Parcells & Sparano maybe it never will, however, it appears to be on the horizon just a matter of practice & timing to make it work certainly there will always be a preferred set to play there will always be the best left & right guard right up until they are worn down or injured the game has changed in its physical demands tandem running backs were an oddity not to long ago things change!
I think it was the Houston game. A couple lineman came in and a couple were supposed to go out but there was some confusion and I think it led to too many men in the huddle.
coaching & practice remedy most stupid mistakes. w/starter quality linesmen across the board, it is doable. I'm sure we will see some form of rotation throughout the up-coming season
Mistakes are going to happen no matter how much practice and coaching you do. Of course repetition will limit those mistakes but you still see things like C to QB exchange. It is part of the game. Why open yourself up to the possibility of more mistakes by rotating OL In a rotational system risk outweighs the upside
All that, and the more you take these guys in and out of a game you run the risk of your depth getting injured. Although I don't think 23rd meant to say we're going to a rotational line, just that we can rotate guys in and out if we have to. Last year injury seemed to dictate a lot of the rotation, but perhaps the team got a little too cute with it at times, too.
there is always a necessity like the Carolina game which wasn't at all by choice and actually worked out miraculously considering the situation. I am just not a big fan of making things harder than they have to be. IMO you get a core 5 to start and you go with that group. OL is about chemistry and familiarity. like i said before i love the depth on OL but only as a backup when a starter is injured
Not when I read it, he thinks we're moving to a 7-8 man rotation on the line during games. While in principle this makes sense for all the reasons stated by 23rd, I worry the last time we tried this when JJ brought in Kevin Gogan and rotated him with ???. It worked okay, and I think JJ did it given his success doing it on DL. However, I remember thinking that we might be better just leaving one starter in than the rotation. Given that, I'd like to see a 6 man rotation just so we don't end up like last season with scrubs playing the interior line. take our 3 best guards and rotate them. I'd personally keep Grove in 100% of the time and hope that he stays healthy.
Friend Ohio Fanatic: something like that would work & I think will happen: 1) using the guards in random/ necessary rotation insures the integrity of the rest of the line, avoiding declining play & injury due to fatigue 2) it forces the opposition defense to adapt & strain to maintain, rendering them @ a distinct disadvantage in the second half of the game & season 3) would not try to rotate the center or tackles unless it w/absolutely necessary & when this did occur (which it will over the course of a season) the guards second the position: Incognito/Garner RT (Carey Moves to left if Long is out) or Center. if both a tackle & the center go down then Thomas & Dimitri play Guard, while the other two fill in @ Center & Tackle. the biggest advantage is no one enters the game cold or w/o proper timing, coordination etc. Parcells & Sparano are obviously up to something (innovation?) w/ the collection of starters they have acquired
i'm with killer ... don't see much of an upside to a rotation based OL ... now if you want to call using particular packages a form of rotation - then so be it ... as i do believe we will have special packages to go with certain formations. i also don't agree that Carey would move to LT if Long were to get injured ... if Gardner is ready, i believe he would move right in -- albeit, it would clearly be easier for him to move into RT. Just think that Carey has been away from LT for so long now, that mentally it would be harder for him to switch, than it would be for someone to just move into LT ... assuming he could handle it, of course. don't think they are up to anything peculair ... they just want to win NOW ! and that takes talent and depth ... we will continue to work on both until they are satisfied. we have 'older' backs and a young QB .... pressure is on the OL to do well !
rotation by package or necessity, whatever something new along these lines is coming up too much money, too much parity, too much investment Bill Parcells & Co. do everything for a reason my studied opinion for 2010: look for seven to eight starting caliber linesmen in rotation in what ever form
that's why we purged Smiley ... and if we have the opportunity -- we'd 'probably' do likewise with Grove ... this FO now sees its err -- and wants to have big, reliable, durable lineman ... without a doubt, Grove was and is a large upgrade over Satele -- but if he can't stay on the field ... especially come the end of the season, when games really matter -- we don't gain anything. the good news is that the FO will have some tough calls to make when it comes to the final cuts and the OL ...
Grove? the guy is an elite center Long w/ injured last season want to get rid of him too? Grove captains the offensive line makes all the calls in the game we're set w/ the CenterPiece & BookEnds the three of them are elite NFL players basically, the guards would rotate in the vision I have for the offensive line
come on now ... we knew when we signed Grove that he was an injury risk -- a worthwhile risk at the time, but a risk none-the-less ... do not confuse ability on the field, with the ability to stay on the field -- because that is what matters. it will take some very good play from the lot of Berger, Garner, Thomas, and now Procter ... but it 'could' be done. Not saying it will, but it is possible. To put it another way ... there are 3 starters on the hot seat headed into TC: Crowder (mediocre play), Merling (whether you consider him a starter or not, mediocre play), and Grove (solid play, but injury history limits time) ... i don't call Smith on a hot seat - since he earned the job based off of Allen's injury, and he could come and take it back (though i'm not sure if that is what we need this year -- would prefer him playing center field along with Clemons in the Nolan defense in the 'nickel' as opposed to outside CB).
I have to disagree with the whole concept of rotational O-line. You get 5 starters, and everyone else is set to come in when you absolutely have to bring them in (injuries, extreme fatigue, etc). The first few games of the last two years have shown us what happens when the oline hasn't had time to gel together and work as a cohesive unit. Creating moving parts will only breed confusion amongst them. The line needs to be one cohesive collective unit. You need to know how the guy to the left and/or right of you is going to react to things. Having a line full of great bodies is one step. Having a line full of great bodies that can work together as a team is what allows the magic to happen.
The rotational Oline has been used in College by Nebraska in the Mid 90s. From 1995 to 1997, they simply flogged people without mercy. Watch many games where they literally inserted two new guards at a time. Center mostly stayed the same but if they were pounding the other team with rushing, they kept the entire Oline fresh. I for one, am all for it. The major problem is this and its far from conventional thinking. In college football you have a bajillion Olineman on the sideline and with the exception of those redshirting, they are all at your disposal. In the NFL there is usually two Olineman standing on the sideline. Of which, one is a backup center, if lucky, he can play guard. The other is a back up tackle and again, if lucky, he can play guard. Not many teams dress more then 7 Olineman on game day and usually keep 9 on the 53 man roster, with two more inactive on game day. It would take a pair of brass nutz to dress 9 Olineman for game day. I think we all know both Sparano and Tuna have brass nutz. If you dress 9, even 8, one is a backup center or center/G, another is a backup G and still another is a backup T/G. What people forget about the versatility here of Incognito is, he has played every position on the offensive line. He was an All American LT at Nebraska, they used him at C, his last spring there and what most do not know,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, he is an excellent loooooooooooooooooooong snapper. So right there we have a guy that is RG that can backup at C and at RT. Tell ya what, if they got the nutz to dress 9 Offensive lineman on game day, each week, week in and week out, and Henne and Marshal and our other receivers hook up nicely and Ronnie,Ricky and Polite stay healthy ? Yeah, not being silly or nothing but this team could pound any team in the NFL into the ground, with vigor. And, they could do it week in and week out. Unconventional ? Yep, would it work, most certainly. All they have to do is find a place to cut 2 others on the 45 man game day roster. One place could be special teams. Replace two guys on the kick off team with the two extra Olineman and know what ? Its not as far fetched as you may think it is. The NFL is a changing pallette of inventions and ideas. Would certainly be a controversial move but if it worked, which it will if done, you will see half the league doing it in 2011. Wildcat was called crazy at first, razzle dazzle, tom trickery and what happened ? Teams attempted copy cats of it as soon as they saw we were flogging people with it. I like it, I liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike it a lot. Know what ? our two starting Guards would like it too. Get a breather now and then and have enough gas in the tank in the 4th quarter to rumble over people ? Yeah, count me in as insane and liking the idea.
Look at the broader picture. Its not different then a close knit family. A family of 9 is as close knit as a family of 5, everybody just has to pull their weight a little harder. They can jell, they can be a cohesive unit. They just have to know from square one, what is going on. It can work, I am telling you, it can work brother. I have seen it done, be it in college but it was a thing of beauty. You literally beat the other team up physically then insert the starters back in in the fourth quarter and beat them mercilessly into the ground like you grind wheat. Fat boy Jenkins for the Jets would have a friggin heart attack trying to stay up to Fresh Olineman and his Boss ol " I gotta operation cause I fat and Yougly " Ryan, would blow up into a billion pieces on the sideline and Sea Birds would carrry his little bitty body parts out to ocean.
don't want to distract the thread. I'm really enjoying it but let me interject just a little bit of accurate information about Jake Grove: prior to signing w/our franchise 1) Grove has never been injury-prone, according to explanations & information put forth by the TriFecta (they should know). he has had a remarkably resilient career, that can be traced from his HS days through college into the NFL. he w/ brought in injury-free & healthy. Jake has proven to be a leader & a force to reckoned with @ Center. 2) just for the record: the Raiders wanted to keep him. he became a free agent & they couldn't match monies, too many big signings that year. last year w/ the Dophins 3) the guy suffered a high ankle sprain against Carolina, Berger started the last six games at center for Jake. A normal recovery is three to six weeks for this kind of injury. There w/ no surgery involved, no complications. he is football ready as we post on the forum
Grove has only started 16 games once in 6 years in the league, that was in 2006. The most he ever started was 12, last year and 2008. Several different injuries have kept him out over his 6 years, this is accurate info. I'm not saying we get rid of him, but he has a history of not staying on the field.
Most of the better interior offensive lineman that play their balllzz off miss a few games each season. Like this high ankle sprain, Sometimes its almost better to break you dammm leg instead of a high ankle sprain. Its hard to rehab, team is pushing to get you back in soooooooooooo, BAM, shoot em up with painkiller and the pain goes away and the sprain never heals properly. Look at rosters and you will see, interior Olineman take a beating thru out the year. Sure, there may be some on the interior Oline that play all season but most of those guys I would, for the most part, not want on my football team. Most teams with heavy rushing attacks have owie type injuries on the interior Oline. Not too much the tackles but both Guards and Center positions. Its like being a gladiator without a sword .
Just a note about Tony in your signature. I will bet anything he was a HS baseball player. Look at his left hand, he is tucking it under as if it had a glove on it. Good Tony, you listened well to your pitching instructor.
