The injuries are the only thing that make me weary of Shockey. By all accounts he puts up on the field where it matters. I do think a 2nd rounder for a guy with his recent injury history is too much. If it was a 3rd or later or maybe conditional I wouldn't mind it. A quality TE is a young Qbs best friend.
If he were a free agent, I'd be interested, but I'm not interested in sacrificing a draft pick for any player at this point.
then we can agree to disagree. I never said I wanted the team filled with character flawed guys. But to simply reject a player because of his past is ridiculous IMO. In regards to Zach: I'd much rather have a ZT on my team than a Ray Lewis of course. Someone with character who is equally as good, if not the best at his position in the league. But I wouldn't just rather have David Martin over Shockey. Zach was special. ANd look where that got him. Released. So no matter who the player is, or how his character is, once he gets too expensive no matter how much he produces, he is gone....which is a sad state of affairs. Its the same thing everyone is clammoring for with JT. He wins the DPOY 2 years ago and all of a sudden people are looking to unload him because he is expensive, not that he isn't producing.
Agree to disagree But.... All it takes is one bad apple, especially on a team that is going to be bringing in alot of young players over the next couple of years. Parcells and Co. are trying to put a new positive culture in place, I don't think that it would be very helpful to the cause to bring in a guy that has proven to be a distraction. Our young players will need positive role models, not bad character guys. If Shockey is going to misbehave in NY, how would he hold up in South Beach? Zach was released because of his age and injury. JT on the otherhand is our biggest asset. For a team that is starting over and trying to build a solid foundation, a team that is 2 or 3 years away from the playoffs according to the men in charge, it doesn't make much sense to keep JT around for sentimental reasons. Sure he is still a very good player, but where will he be in 2 or 3 years? If we hold onto JT next year, he isn't going to make us a much better team than we would be if we move him, one player doesn't a team make. We may win one or two extra games, but we'll lose out in the long run because JT will fade away on this team in 2 or 3 years and we'll have missed out on the chance to draft a young building block with the 2nd rounder that we could get for him. It makes sense to take advantage of your assets and move them before they lose their value. JMO though
OK. Which two out of Antonio Gates, Tony Gonzalez, Kellen Winslow II, Chris Cooley and Jason Witten would you take Shockey over? If we traded the 32nd overall pick for Shockey, I wouldn't be leery...I'd be outright psychotic. That 32nd pick is absolute plum value in this draft. If Chad Henne drops to 32, we're going to get some tremendous trade offers. I've said this before, but I would imagine that the Bears would hand over the #44 and their 2009 #1 for the pick. If not them, the Panthers might do something similar. Here's the thing: you don't trade picks for players in a vacuum. To have a successful NFL team, you need cheap labor that can produce. True, Shockey would almost certainly outproduce any TE in this year's draft this year or next. However, is the salary cost worth it, compared to said TE? As a more fundamental question, is it worth trading a pick that might be used on an important position on the team (say, RT Gosder Cherilus, if we should pass on Jake Long at #1) for a position that's secondary in nature? Tight end is NOT a premium NFL position, and as Desides (I think) keeps harping on (rightly), TEs in a Dan Henning offense are NOT primary pass targets. Add in the sometimes lousy attitude, the injury problems, and the fact that the Giants' offense looked a hell of a lot better with Kevin Boss at TE than with Shockey, and I've got real concerns about trading a second round pick for him. For 57, I can maybe live with it. 32 is ridiculous, though.
To phunwin If Chad Henne isn't around by the 32nd pick some team screwed up big time, he is going to be a mid 2nd round pick at best. Agreed Shockey isn't top 4 but he is certainly top 10 also I would put Dallas Clark in front of Chris Cooley when it comes to top 5 tight ends.
Sir, I'm afraid that you've forgotten that Dallas Clark is awesome. Allow this video proof to remind you. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeTgvwwhZZQ[/media]
SOoooo why would Shockey want to come here? And Why would Parcells want to bring him here for a 2nd round pick? Neither of those questions have any logical answer. Shockey for one of our 2nds is a HORRIBLE idea. I'd almost rather draft Matt Ryan than make this deal.....almost.
Name a young player who wouldn't want to spend his contract in Miami. Then, you can factor in that he already has a ring, and he went to UM.
Wait, so you would be ok if he said those things earlier in the season? That sounds a bit contradictory the way I read it, so please correct me if I'm wrong. So he acts like you would like him to act as much as he could (give deference to his head coach) but then says what he did when the coach clearly lost the team, and you say it's too late, he should have done it earlier? Or am I just confused? Do we know he wasn't a peacemaker at the rumble in the Jumbo? (I just made that up, yeah I'm intoxicated on a Sunday afternoon. It was 90F+ in San diego!) At that point in the season, Cam was no longer the coach. Players give deference to coach's that are coaches. Porter has always done that. He never acted like that with Cowher. The title of head coach is a very powerful one, but only when the person holding at least tries to act like one, Cameron did not. And finally, Porter isn't the leader people make him out to be, his teammates make him out to be one. Pittsburgh and Miami. Not us. We cannot judge him as a leader or not of the lockeroom, we can only read if his lockeroom does. From the link: EDIT: OH, and NO to shockey. You can't tell me we cannot find a good TE at what is tantamount to a late late 1st rounder. How often does Shockey even play? TE is big in Parcells/Sparano offenses, not so much in Hennings. Obviously Sparano and parcells are going to put their wrinkles into Henning's offense. But no way to Shockey! He's the John Rocker of the NFL, i.e. saying the stupidest things.
He'll be 28 and he got his ring without playing in the Superbowl. Big difference. Why leave the a defending champion team to go to a 1-15 team? You could say cause he's already won the superbowl and he has nothing else left to accomplish but that really doesnt fit this scenario.
No way is this guy worth a 2nd rnd pick! Shockey is a talented TE but seems to have the body of a potato chip. Also his mouth sort of reminds me of S Sharpe. Not as bad but Shockey has tasted his foot on more than a couple occasions since he was drafted. And the fact that the Giants offense seemed to open-up without Shockey in the line-up makes you wonder what's up with that.. Marino1983
Will be nothing like Antonio Gates. He was used primarily as a blocker, and people are merely projecting his ability as a receiver. But you have to wonder, if he's such a great receiver, why wasn't he featured in the passing game? Fred Davis please.
Blame his OC at college. Word is he was horribly underused. The problem is, he'd be used even less in the offense we're going to install. We just need to draft an additional OT and call him a TE for all the difference it will make in our passing game. I think Confucius did an analysis on the role TEs play in the offense we're likely to be using in the future. Henning likes two TE sets but none of his TEs have ever been an impact in passing. Maybe it was the talent available at the position, but chances are we're not going to see the next Antonio Gates develop in Miami as long as Henning is at the helm.
That's kind of what I was getting at: he wasn't used in the passing game for a reason. Yeah, the OC could be an idiot, but outside of Mike Mularkey, how many times does that REALLY happen? ... Okay, outside of Dan Henning and Mike Mularkey, how many times does that really happen?
TE's or just underutlized weapons in general? Jeff Bowden underused Lorenzo Booker at FSU, and we are about to unleash him on the NFL next year
There is a right way to confront a problem and a wrong way, Porter has quite a history doing it the wrong way. If he saw a problem with the team (which we all did) he should have handled it behind closed doors with his coach, not try to embarrass the guy after the fact. A leader would have tried to rally the troops and make things better before they spiraled out of control, Porter didn't. Again, the guy didn't even know the playbook until a few weeks into the regular season, he has no business opening his mouth at all. Maybe if he knew what his job was, what his assignments were, where he was supposed to be on the field, maybe this team wins a couple of games early on and the season goes a little differently. Porter = Moron Some coaches are screamers, some are not. I'm not sticking up for Cam as a HC, I think he did a horrible job mainly because he overextended himself as both the HC and OC. It's tough for any HC to do both jobs, it's silly for a rookie HC to even attempt it. But he did so because his offense is the reason we hired him, I firmly believe that we never wanted him as our 1st choice for HC but that he was brought here solely to fix the offense. He was the OC in SD and the only way we could secure his services was to give him a promotion to HC. We were desperate and it backfired. But that still doesn't give Porter or any player the right to act out like that.
I'm done with this thread, but I will answer this question. I'd take Shockey over Cooley and Witten. Last year I would have taken him over Winslow. He may still be a better player than Winslow right now (because of his blocking) but I think WInslow will be the best TE in the league soon, if he can stay healthy. JMO of course. so yes, I would not mind having Shockey here. I DO NOT want to give up a 2nd round pick for him, especially not #32. I would trade that 2nd to get him and their 2nd in return however. I would not want to give up too much to get Shockey.
If you re-watch the first few weeks, it was apparently nobody knew the playbook apparently. We were horrible esp. the front 7 on D. Where did this come from though, I don't remember hearing about him not knowing the playbook. Not doubting you one bit, just don't remember reading about it. Porter is crazy enough (and to you, Moronic enough) to admit it. I'm not talking about him being a screamer or anything. When he was hired, non-screaming coaches are in vogue. Now, I guess coaches that used to scream but are softer and gentler are. Either way, I don't hold coaches to be some deity to be untouchable. If your lockeroom is cheering on a player that dressed you down in front of everyone, well, I think you no longer are a coach. I mean, if you've lost your players, who exactly are you a coach of? To think he is still the coach at that point, is to admire the Emperor's New Clothes That's just my humble opinion.
