Why can't Brian Hartline be a "number one" receiver?

Didn't Hartline score 4 TD's last yr?

Not bad, not great, but for a surprise #4 pick without much of a resume at OSU I thought he did great.

 

31 catches, 506 yards, 3 TDs. His real standout number is his YPC, 16.3. That's very good. Just for comparison, Sidney Rice had 15.8 YPC. Of course, Rice also had nearly 3 times the catches, yards, and TDs.

 

He scored on an end around as well Des.

And rewatching the games, there were several times when he was behind the coverage and Henne just missed him on overthrows.

It takes time to develop the Chemistry between Qb and Wr, something that alot of people don't want to hear, but it is true.

 

It's not about a set, predetermined physical or mental aspect of a guy that makes him a #1 WR, it's about play-making ability. The Pats were mentioned...and between Moss and Welker, those guys have to be gamed planned for. Pitts has Ward. Carolina has Steve Smith. Colts have Wayne. None of which are big guys like TO, Fitz, Johnson, etc, but all fit the bill of a play-maker. We don't have that with this WR corp. Not a knock on any of them, but not one of them does the D have to plan for, and that includes Hartline. They all have their strengths, but none of them have the 'it' factor that makes you say, "This is a #1 WR !"

 

We're talking about receiving, though. Ted Ginn scored on end arounds, too. No one holds that up as proof he'll become an elite receiver.

I haven't seen any posts to the contrary.

 

I like Hartline alot. Probably more than any other WR we have. But someon already said it.
Too small and too slow.
He just isn't a #1 WR. He may develop into a great #2, but he'll never be a true #1 WR.

 

not fast enough to be a #1 WR?

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/?p=8112
The ever-popular 40-yard dash time was clocked at 4.52. Three one-hundredths of a second behind Robiskie. In line with Jekins. But his finish in the other drills may surprise you even more.
Hartline finished tops among all wide receivers with a 10.92 in the 60-yard shuttle. In the three cone drill, he finished second among his position with a time of 6.65, while taking home fourth place in the 20-yard shuttle (4.12). Robiskie was fifth and eighth respectively, while not having an official time in the 60-yard shuttle. For comparison purposes, Georgia’s Knowshon Moreno clocked in at 11.63.
Being just a hair over 6′2″, and weighing 195 pounds, it appears that Hartline is hoping to be the next Wes Welker.
”I think that’s probably a main asset if you’re going to draft myself,” he said. ”There’s probably not a ton of slot receivers you can think of off the top of your head. I’m sure there’s some desire out there for a certain guy, whether it’s me or somebody else.”
I won’t delve in to the fact Hartline essentially said that he could be a team’s target, unless they’re targeting someone else. However, what he does have going for him is the fact that the majority of fans are counting him out as a professional football player. He’ll need to build off of these strong performances at the combine and look to continue his progression at Ohio State’s pro day in a few weeks.

The ever-popular 40-yard dash time was clocked at 4.52. Three one-hundredths of a second behind Robiskie. In line with Jekins. But his finish in the other drills may surprise you even more.
Hartline finished tops among all wide receivers with a 10.92 in the 60-yard shuttle. In the three cone drill, he finished second among his position with a time of 6.65, while taking home fourth place in the 20-yard shuttle (4.12). Robiskie was fifth and eighth respectively, while not having an official time in the 60-yard shuttle. For comparison purposes, Georgia’s Knowshon Moreno clocked in at 11.63.
Being just a hair over 6′2″, and weighing 195 pounds, it appears that Hartline is hoping to be the next Wes Welker.
”I think that’s probably a main asset if you’re going to draft myself,” he said. ”There’s probably not a ton of slot receivers you can think of off the top of your head. I’m sure there’s some desire out there for a certain guy, whether it’s me or somebody else.”
I won’t delve in to the fact Hartline essentially said that he could be a team’s target, unless they’re targeting someone else. However, what he does have going for him is the fact that the majority of fans are counting him out as a professional football player. He’ll need to build off of these strong performances at the combine and look to continue his progression at Ohio State’s pro day in a few weeks.

P.S. He ran track in High School for four years & played QB before converting to WR. think about it, all the intangibles...
Brian Hartline

 

Which has -0- to do with the number of TD's Hartline scored, put it this way, Hartline has scored 1 less TD than Ted Ginn has..in his career..and 3 of Ginn's TD's were kick returns.

This is the 3,000th thread on a Phins Wr, the undercurrent, even in this one, is "so and so needs/is/isn't a #1 Wr" it doesn't matter if the subject is Ginn, Hartline or Cammarillo, it takes time for a Qb to develop rapport with the Wr corps..especially since we have not had the same Starting Qb for the entire season for two consecutive seasons.

That never comes up, people don't wish to hear it, that destroys the magic aspect of "so and so is or isn't the mythical #1 Wr"

It's present in the context of every thread like this, you'll deny it of course.

 

None of those strengths are exceptional though. They are within the range that it could be matched by a good defensive player. Who knows, maybe he'll develop some unstoppable move that will befuddle DBs for the next 10 years? But odds are that his ceiling will be as a good WR, not a #1 WR that teams have to game plan against.

 

And it's still not relevant to Hartline as a receiver.

The problem with our receivers has little to do with chemistry. They'll improve as they develop a rapport with Henne, sure, but this group has a collective glass ceiling as currently constituted, and that can't be fixed simply with some offseason pitch-and-catch.

IMO, you're reading into things that aren't there.

 

Exactly. It's amazing that the people use the Saints as an example when they have Colston who is a stud. They also have first round pick Robert Meachem who is starting to turn into a stud himself.

 

Who knows?

I do think he should be up around 200pds if he can manage it.

The thing with Hartline is I can't think of another player to compare him to, he just kinda makes things happen when he probably should not have been able to do it.

Another example, he drew 2 pass interference flags deep down the field last yr, one from the Pats, one from the Steelers, something I cannot recall Ted Ginn ever doing.

 

Friend padre31:
agreed:
1) need to throw a ball before it can be caught & both QB & WR have to be on the same page.
2) this is what gives/gave Pennington the edge w/ the receiving corp, having said that, I believe nothing brings out the best in a player like competition.
3) got three legitimate contenders for QB this year. I would give Henne the edge but in no way the team w/o competing against the other two & winning the start. let them compete.

back to Brian Hartline:
I predict he will be our PlayMaker from day-one in 2010
until the end of the year.

 

Hartline is more explosive than he is given credit for being.

The problem with our receivers has little to do with chemistry. They'll improve as they develop a rapport with Henne, sure, but this group has a collective glass ceiling as currently constituted, and that can't be fixed simply with some offseason pitch-and-catch.

IMO, you're reading into things that aren't there.[/QUOTE]

What I see with this Wr corps is a solid unit that has three young players on it in Bess, Ginn and Hartline, and Greg C who imho is the best possession Wr in the AFCE..he just doesn't drop catchable passes.

I think we could use more explosiveness from that group, but I also think better Te play would help them out tremendously.

I tend to think DBess is overrated as he lacks speed and turns the ball over to often and is not a worthwhile punt returner but other than that Wr is just not a huge need in my eyes, Te is.

 

I think you have it backward. You're arguing that a #1 WR isn't needed b/c the "magic" of chemistry will replace that. There's no substitute for talent. We need offensive players who are mismatches for the defense. You have enough of those guys and the defense has to change what they do. The Jets can't send as many DBs on blitzes, Polamalu has to stay out of the box more, the LBs have to wait another count, etc. I like Hartline and I believe he'll develop, but the reality is that may just be the homer in me talking. The rest of the league isn't thinking "oh no, what are we going to do if/when that Hartline kid develops".

 

I think you misread the Jets Rafi, they are always going to blitz and pressure as long as Rexxy is their HC, they will spend the resources on cover corners to enable them to do so.

And no player receives that amount of respect until they show they can do it out on the field, Hartline showed flashes and shinned at the end of the year.

The one thing that will ensure those defenders play back is a seam busting Te, that kills blitzing defenses, otherwise a possession type Wr corps is just as effective because the can get open quickly..just not down the field.

 

just because we have a PlayMaker in the making
& a solid Receiving Corp does not preclude us from drafting Dez @12,
as a matter of fact,
I think that is the way to go
only thing better than one elite WR is two elite WR's

couple that w/ our offensive line & running game, you've got a shot @ the BigEnchilada

 

I've mentioned his 16.3 YPC up and down this thread.

Disagree. This is an overachieving unit in general. Fundamentally, it's a group of nice little receivers who would be third and fourth options almost anywhere else in the NFL. Bess is a slot receiver. Hartline is a #4 right now. Camarillo is basically a duplicate of Hartline except older. Ginn is a #10, to borrow the phrase from CK. And Turner... until he catches a pass in a real game, he barely qualifies as a bench warmer.

IMO, we should keep Bess as the slot guy and Hartline to see if he develops into a #2: the rest need to go.

 

Brian Hartline can't be a #1 receiver according to common consensus because we didn't spend enough resources on him.

No one really cares about the reality of where all the receivers they were screeching for in the off season came from, that they weren't 1st round picks or acquired blockbuster trades. Everyone wants a Brandon Marshall or a Vincent Jackson or what have you, but no one actually wants to go through the process it took the Broncos or Chargers to get those players.

 

You need multiple mismatches. I agree we need a seam busting TE, but we also will still need a #1 WR. And as Ireland said, you usually have to spend a first round pick to get one of those guys.

And yes, teams will still blitz, but a offensive play makers will make them pay when they do.

I think you are greatly over-estimating what Hartline showed. He never flashed as a player that could eventually beat one on one match-ups consistently. He flashed as a player that could eventually be a good complimentary player. We have nobody that even flashed as a future offensive mismatch. And no amount of chemistry is likely to overcome that.

 

Then he certainly is fast enough.

We will have to agree to disagree, Greg C will be one yr removed from his ACL, Hartline should improve from more experience and who knows what we have with Ginn.

The way I see it when we go 4 wide with Hartline and Ginn on the outside and Greg C and Bess on the inside we have a good Wr corps .

Good enough anyway, to look at upgrading the Te position which is why I like Jermaine Gresham..a great Te is a young Qb's best friend.

 

exactly Friend padre31 & there are many excellent TE's in this years draft

 

I can't tell you why the common consensus came to their conclusions (anymore than you can, I imagine), but I came to my conclusions by scouting him. Hartline is unlikely to ever be a #1 WR be lacks any physical attributes that are likely to make him a mismatch for the defense. He may be the exception, but it's simply not a good bet. The reasonable bet is that he'll end up being a complimentary #2 - #4 WR.

 

Not no one. Just because I want Dez Bryant (who would be a high pick) doesn't mean I would mind him going through a development process.

 

Let's do some Player A and Player B, and see if someone can figure out which one is the future Superstar WR who gives all the receiver fetishists boners, and which one is the boring, drama-free goofy looking white guy.


Player A
4.54 40 yard dash
1.61 10 yard dash
2.62 20 yard dash
4.06 20 yard shuttle
6.87 3-cone drill
34 inch vertical.

Player B
4.52 40 yard dash
1.50 10 yard dash
2.61 20 yard dash
4.12 20 yard shuttle
6.65 3-cone drill
34.5 inch vertical.

 

Check post #65.

The point isn't the development, the point is the relatively humble beginnings. There is going to be an absolute rage going on here if we spend a 2nd round pick on a WR rather than somehow finding a way to get Dez Bryant if he comes anywhere close to #12.

We've got people here absolutely scornful, and believing that the front office doesn't care about receivers because they invested a 3rd round pick on Patrick Turner.

 

I'd rage if we passed on Dez Bryant at #12 for anyone not named Berry, Suh, McCoy, or Okung but not if he got near #12 and we didn't get him. It would suck, but I don't know that we can trade up. I'd be happy with Tate, Benn, or Thomas in rd 2 as well if we didn't get Bryant. I'd even be ok with not taking a WR until rd 3 or later (depending on who is at each pick).

 

You forgot to put height and weight in there too.

 

I notice a lot of people try to compare Hartline to Miles Austin considering Austin was a non-factor early then broke out. Anyone take into account Miles Austin ran a 4.29 40 out of college?

 

It's just like Disgusipate's Michael Crabtree exercise up there where he uses Crabtree's measurables from high school.

 

I think people think you have to be an elite receiver to be a #1 receiver.

I consider Derrick Mason a #1 receiver, but not an elite receiver... I think Hartline could be a receiver of Mason's caliber (maybe not the longevity of a career that Mason is having) but something of the sort.

I wouldn't be opposed to bring in an elite receiver but who wouldn't? In fact, if Dez Bryant falls to #12, we should definitely take him...

 

Regardless of what round we choose a WR, we shouldn't even be looking at guys that don't have the tools and talent to step ahead of the rest of this unit...drafting another #2 or #3 WR is a waste of a pick. We might as well use that pick to fill another position of need.

If Dez isn't there I'd wait and take a flier on someone like that Williams kid from Syracuse

 

Wow, it takes absolute cannonballs for testicles to imply intellectual dishonesty on not listing the relative weights and turning around and dropping this one. Its his campus workouts on his CBS draft bio. I dunno where you are managing to get high school numbers from.

 

I'm tending to think you are right, when a player starts pushing that workout back,back,back, there is some issue involved, if Bryant runs a pedestrian 40 time...then what?

If he is passed on my goodness thePhins server will crash with all of the outrage.

 

Everywhere I am seeing has him at a 4.47 at the combine which is faster but I wouldn't go overboard

 

I consider a #1 a guy that demands double coverage. Anytime he's got single coverage you throw him the ball regardless if he's open or not because you know he's going to catch the ball if it's on target and move the chains. We don't have anything like that. We don't even have any recievers capable of stretching the field yet, everyone plays a short field against us because all they have to do is jam Ginn at the line and he goes nowhere.

I don't think anyone is complaining about Hartline, Bess or Camarillo because there job is not to stretch the field nor to demand double coverage, there job is simply catch the ball move the chains absorb the hits in the process and they all do it very well. This is why Ginn get's all the flack, he's not capable of doing his job, he's not even capable of doing our other 3 recievers jobs as well as they do. He's just out there making it harder on them to do their jobs due to his inability to do his own.

 

****EDIT****

I don't mean to accuse you of dishonesty. I did at first, but I jumped to the conclusion that you knew that Crabtree hadn't been timed. He stated that he hadn't been timed since high school and he didn't run at the combine nor did he have a pro day. His campus page has his old high school measurements up.

http://www.texastech.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/crabtree_michael00.html

The measurements they give on that page match the ones on the CBS page.

 

Right, because none of us wanting an upgrade are ever watching closely each year during camp to see what that year's TC stud WR looks like and if he's Miles Austin or Brandon London .........or any of the other countless WR's we have had tearing it up in camp only to end up waived at some point.

Nobody would mind finding a gem at a sweet price....at any position. You're being far too exaggerative

Hartline could be a number one the same way OJ McDuffie could....because he's a good player and......you just don't have anybody better.

Ppl are always talking about how much it would help Ginn to produce if we had a true number one. I think Hartline is the one that would tear it up, not Ginn. Hartline would make it tough for Ginn to see the field.

Right.....and now that they're developed, look how hard they are to hold onto.

Another thing is time.....we need to get Henne some help yesterday. This offense needs the final pieces put in place to really be something special. We can't afford to just sit around and wait on yet another WR, like we've done with Ginn.

And it's not like all WR's take a long time to contribute or develop, we've seen a lot of young guys come in lately and help their teams immediately.

 

Not this crap again. Nobody cares where the #1 WR comes from we just know that we need one. Whether the FO gets one through FA, the draft, or one on our current roster develops into that player we'll be equally happy. Moreso if the latter two happen.

But you seem to believe the opposite extreme. That it's wrong to even think about addressing a need through free agency. So was the Dansby acquisition foolish? Couldn't we have just found our Dansby in the 4th round? What makes it ok to address defensive needs through free agency but not offensive needs? Especially considering the WR position is one of the toughest transitions to make from college to pros.

And tell us more about this process it takes to get a #1 WR like Marshall or Jackson. How many years should it take? How long do you keep taking chances on late round guys?