I don't think pure good is the only qualifying measure, maybe redemption is also, that could be the reason for the sideways timeline. I think Ben and Jack could easily be candidates still. Obviously as jacob said he is trying to prove something to the "devil" about humans. this was also referenced in their first conversation. Even though the producers have claimed different I think the island is some form, maybe not specifically, of a purgatory where their lives are in the balance and they actions they have decide their fate. Kind of a fight for the souls of humans type of place and if MIB can turn just one he can be released. Bringing me to my last ramble, Widmore is an agent of the MIB. He wants back on the island to release the smoke, and get what he was promised, before jacob found out and had Ben take over....just my theory there...
It might have been a tidal wave because if you remember before the Black Rock hit the statue it was up to it's face.
for a minute there i really thought there was gonna be a huge twist that Richard has thought MIB was Jacob all these years, because he had never seen him or something-- obviously that's not the case, but would have been interesting if they did that very good episode overall, everything seemed to 'make sense'-- the only question i really have is that MIB said something about Jacob 'stealing' his body? what does that mean? hmmm... not looking forward to the sun and jin episode... <sigh>.... i guess they gotta get through it at some point. hopefully they have a separate storyline next week that is actually interesting haha
what have we seen that makes you think that? i'm not trying to call you out or anything i just haven't thought of that with what's been given to us..
pretty much puts to bed the whole MIB is good and Jacob is bad twist eh? loved the episode... did anyone else catch the name of the captain of the Black Rock? Magnus Hanso? Any connection with our old friend Alvar Hanso?? The man that funded the Dharma Initiative... nice tie in perhaps.
Great episode, but it opened up some new questions. Like why Jacob brings people to the island? Just to prove that people are not inherinatly bad to the MIB? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It's interesting that the island is like a Pandora's box.. can't wait for the rest of the season!
I left the show thinking the MIB is still the good guy. Jacobs a liar trying to get people to do his work. Bringing souls to the island to prove men are bad by nature. MIB thinks maybe they are not. IMO Richard realized he was following the wrong person (Jacob), and only after he looked for the MIB did he get some sort of happiness. He was able to have closure with his wife. Jacob said that wasn't his wife he saw in the boat. Maybe the MIB was right saying he tried to save her, but she was already gone. Perhaps both Jacob and MIB can turn into smoke monsters.
I'm still trying to rack my brain about what I saw but my initial reaction is as a stand alone episode, last night's episode was great, but as part of the Lost series, it seemed a bit little off or flat (of course that could change depending on if thigns are further explained). I think a lot had to do with Jacob's speech to Richard, mainly about why he brings people to the island, like you noted it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Especially how Richard became Jacob's 'worker' so you would assume that he's here to do his bidding by bringing out the good in people yet Richard has never shown that side of himself and I'd argue that he's done the opposite (i.e. helping Ben wipe out the Dharma group, giving Locke information that his father was the real Sawyer in a attempt to get James Ford to take care of Anthony Cooper). While I don't discount the fact that Jacob and MIB have a game between each other, I find it hard to believe that Jacob brings specific people to the island on his own power or he'd know who Richard was before their 'fight' and talk.
Or MIB is really the devil and is trying to use people by tempting them with things (i.e. bringing back Richard's wife, getting Sawyer off the island) much like the devil did with Adam and Eve and the apple tree. While Jacob says he can't things like that and just asks people to trust in him and follow him, like God. Maybe the island really is hell for some people (MIB) and he's trying to find a way out into Heaven (any place off the island). I'm not big into Bible stories but wasn't there a story where the devil tries to use one of God's archangels to gain access into Heaven or at least out of hell?
Which is why I think Jacob is bad. Either way a great episode. I can't wait to see how it all wraps up.
Interesting theory, but why did Isabella, via Hurley, tell Richard they would all "go to hell" unless the "Black Man" was stopped from leaving the island? Also, why did the Smoke Monster kill the entire crew on the Black Rock and spare Richard? That just seems weird. The smoke monster could have easily passed judgement on Richard based on his previous actions (killing the Doctor).
Oh yeah I think it can go either way whether Jacob is good or bad. It's definitely going to be interesting to see how everything ties together and ends up. I will say that I don't think Jacob is bad only because I think the writers expect us to think there's some kind of twist with him, not to say that there won't be a twist but sometimes when people are expecting an obvious twist the opposite happens. I'm still holding out that Jacob is in fact good and while he may bring people to the island to try and prove to MIB that people aren't 'bad' he stays out of their lives (and also from sight) and doesn't push them either way and makes people decide for themselves on how they want to live their lives, again much like God. While you have MIB always 'present' trying to push people to the dark side.
Well I don't think we really know why the smoke monster kills people or the motivation behind it. I mean certainly the smoke monster, if it kills based on judging people, would have killed Sawyer during season 1 as he was certainly a villian. Why leave him alone while killing a random pilot? Why kill Mr. Eko? But not Kate? Why not Michael?
My guess is the devil's (IMO Jacob) last gasp at trying to stop him from switching sides. Just a theory. Perhaps Jacob thought because of his passion for Isabella, he could use him to do his bidding. Maybe he needs someone to help him out. He can't make himself visible to everyone, so use Richard. I still think both MIB and Richard can be black smoke. The more I think about it, the more I think they both could be bad and are trying to control hell outright. I need to stop trying to figure it out and get back to work.
But Jacob flat out told Richard he couldn't bring his wife back, while MIB hinted to him he could (or he did tell him he could I honestly can't remember). It kind of messes up your theory since MIB would be the one to use Isabella against Richard not Jacob.
My thought process was this: Jacob couldn't bring her back because she was in heaven. Untouchable there. MIB could reunite them if Richard choses to side with him. Thus bring her back to him or vise versa.
Interesting theory for sure. Jacob did seem rather angry/annoyed when Richard went to attack him, we never saw that side of him before. Especially the violence he displayed.
I don't think so, the MIB told Richard that he was the smoke, if they both could be smoke he could have easily deflected and said Jacob was the smoke that took Isabella.
MIB things souls are bad by nature and Jacob is trying to prove him wrong. We also know that MIB can take the form of people in your past, which it looks like he did to Richard to manipulate him into killing Jacob.
Honestly I have a feeling the end of this series is going to leave a lot unanswered but thats alright with me. There is so much to this series. I honestly want to smack people that haven't watched this series and find it 'confusing' or whatever reason they have for not watching it. It may be the best written TV series ever. This episode was amazing, if you watch the series from the beginning till now in its entirety its even more amazing. I watched the series on blu ray (1-5) before this year. I'm stunned by this TV show and I'm absolutely brutal on TV shows and the horrid writing in most of them.
While I do enjoy Lost a lot, I'd in no way call it the best written TV series ever, but I respect your or anyone else's opinion to call it that. I do think it does have a lot of flaws, mainly it has a lot of filler episodes that never go anywhere nor is it important to the story and I do think some of the back stories are weak especially in the 3rd season. Even in Seasons 1 and 2 which I love there's a lot of weak points. Don't get me wrong it is a very well written show overall but if you're looking for an amazingly written TV show, check out The Wire.
Thats true, it could very well have been the combination of the wave and the Black Rock hitting the statue. Pandora's Box Well he was trying to defend himself, and he did seem to get really pissed when Richard called the Island Hell.
If you got the time this is a GREAT read on last nights episode, it is long: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20313460_20354159,00.html
Well in his defense he did say it "may be" the best written series ever and in that aspect he is right.
Seems to me that while on the island the Smoke Monster has to follow rules. He seems to be able to kill people, however certain people he is unable to kill directly. He seemed to kill Shannon by showing Walt to her, however once Eko decided to not redeem him past he killed him directly.
Oh I wasn't saying he was right nor wrong, I was just saying that although the show is very well written it does have its flaws (sometimes they're big flaws). Besides from all the mythos and tying things together, the writers do a great job with character development. I agree that smokey has to have rules to follow and hopefully we'll find out what they are. It seems to me that someone like Eko would be a perfect candidate to keep alive on the island since he didn't regret the decisions he had made therefore he didn't 'redeem' himself while someone like Jack, for example, has seemingly redeemed himself and therefore is a big threat to smokey. Right now it just doesn't make sense who or why he kills when he does.
Well I think you can definitely say he can't kill anyone Jacob touches, which brings into question another aspect of the relationship, or Jacob's power in relation to their relationship.
My guess is who/when Smokey can kill people is based on Jacob's 'lists'. If you're on the list you are safe, if you are crossed off or not on the list you are fair game
Are you saying that all visions these characters have of individuals in their past are the result of the smoke monster? That seems like a pretty big leap to make at this point in time. I understand the smoke monster had the ability to take on different forms, but I do not believe that, say, Isabella was the result of the smoke monster. In fact if you re-watch that scene from this weeks episode, Isabella told Richard she was there to save him from the devil. Why would the smoke monster say that, especially when MIB admitted later in the episode that he was in fact the black smoke? And on top of that, the smoke monster was the one that actually took Isabella off the boat as she tried to escape. It just doesn't fit. And it also wouldn't explain Christian appearing to Jack, as Christians body was not in the coffin that was found with the other wreckage of 815 in the caves.
Well didn't Smokey tell Richard that Jacob was the devil? He could have been doing it to screw with his head. I think Smokey might be able to take the forms of dead people from the island, this could explain how he become Eko's brother and lead Eko to the field where he killed him. But that doesn't explain why Isabella appeared. I think the bigger question is why/how are people appearing on the island in the first place?
"It only ends once... everything that happens before that is... progress..." Thinking about lists... going back to the beginning of the show, the others had a list that they were pulling people off the beach. This was then discovered that Ben had made the list. That he had used the Dharma created tools at his disposal to research people's past. To find out who people were off the island so he could use them to his advantage. Who was Ben working for? He could release the smoke monster. He was working for "Jacob" but never actually met him in person. He was being manipulated by MIB all the time. But if smokey can scan peoples memories, why would he need Ben and those Dharma tools? We know MIB is smokey. Obviously something I'm missing and I doubt it will be cleared up by the end of the show. It's like the whole time travel thing has wiped away whatever happened before that in the show and we're now simply focused on Jacob and MIB and the candidates. No more Dharma and Ben and the others....
I agree and this is a big reason why a lot of people are down on the show and with good reason too. The show went in a completely different direction once the time travel stuff happened after focusing so much on The Others, Dharma and Ben. And right now it doesn't seem like we're going to be getting answers to some of the bigger questions in earlier seasons, like Ben's list that you mentioned for example. Something like that does get me annoyed since I feel like almost nothing I watched in the first few seasons matter now. I understand that they needed to make some changes, especially since by Season 3 the flashbacks were getting a little boring and stale and I feel like they rebounded with the flash forward storylines in Season 4 but right now you're right it everything is just so focused on Jacob and MIB, who were only just introduced at the end of last season.
Yep. That is the single biggest reason for my major disappointment with the final season. It's like the first 5 seasons don't matter.
the whole Dharma situation was one of my main interests in the show; Calvin and Desmond in the hatch, the crazy Russian guy, a series of secret bunkers, all cool stuff. Now it makes my head hurt to even try to think about it. Was Dharma working with the MIB or Jacob..or did they just discover the island by accident? Jacob's people were clearly trying to kill them off, with Richard recruiting young Ben to do the deed. But that would make Jacob bad since he advocated their extermination...unless of course Dharma was bad (which it probably is since it is being led by Widmore)
Other than the people who see dead people we have no proof that there is anyone else who can turn into your dead relatives and loved ones. IMO, Isabella was obviously the smoke monster when she was talking to Richard. The smoke monster would do that to manipulate Richard in killing Jacob. Looking at the scene you notice that MIB changed the subject really quickly. It is not that big of a jump. It was what that leader guy in the temple said he was.
