How far did Pat White and P Turner set the Dolphins back?

I mostly agree, but it's too early to make a final judgment on Turner. I know the writing is on the wall, in very BIG letters, but the rule of thumb is to give a receiver 3 years, though they are supposed to show flashes in that time and he has not as of yet. I guess, I'll keep a tiny, tiny bit of hope alive regarding Turner....Ok? Mr. Negative

 

I agree with sceeto here. Plus Pat White came in at some key points at the end of the yr and made some good plays. We drafted him for one reason and we used him for that reason. As for Turner the learning curve is always alot steeper for taller wr's who are used to imposing their wills on players in college. You cant do that in the NFL.

 

We're giving up on Patrick Turner to early. What we know is, he struggles getting separation. In time, with more development into his game, he could learn to seperate and become the red zone target we need.

Pat White will be fine. The man is a gamer. Let his body develop, and the WC will flourish with him running it.

 

I think hitting on Hartline who I expect to be a quality WR for us for years to come at least partially makes up for the misstep with Turner. As for Pat White, just not sure and I think the jury is still out to some degree. He might still be able to help this team somehow but it's not looking too good.

 

Those two picks can be salvaged by...

1) Moving White to WR/RB/HB. Basically, a utility player on offense.

2) Turner working his butt off and making an impact next season. He's a rookie... it wasn't necessarily a wasted pick... yet.

I also hate the idea of trading Ted Ginn, unless we can take advantage of another team in the swap. If the decision were mine, I'd keep Ginn at least one more season, and I'd work him with the expectation of being a #2 WR.

 

How can you be set back going forward, if both are still on the team and they play and produce next year and beyond??

Set back for 2009 sure......but they are both on the roster, and seems both will fill roles next year...thus you are proposing a setback is determined on future production - and thus impossible to state now. No setback beyond 2009...and that season is over....spilt milk is spilt milk.

 

I know. I was just messin'

 

I can't say they've set us back at all because I'm unwilling to say that one year shows exactly what you have gotten in the draft from ANY player.

Obviously we all have guys we think will be busts, are busts, don't have "it" and what not. However I dont think you can say it's a wasted pick for anyone so soon.

 

For now, I'm gonna say that they haven't set us back at all, but from a slightly different perspective than what's already been discussed. Although I do agree that it's hard to judge their impact after only one year.

I think it's a given that you don't hit on every draft pick for whatever reason. It is extremely rare for a team to hit on every draft pick and have them all contribute. Also, it's much easier to look back afterwards and say we could have picked up somebody who was still on the board when we picked. The Willis-Ginn scenario is the great example of this. Although, it can be less clear cut for the later rounds. So it's not so much how much they may or may not have set us back, it's more how much further along could we have been had we picked someone else? Either way though, that's hard to evaluate only one year in and way too Monday Morning QB.

 

I like Larrys answer all the way here.

 

How far back?

Lets just say The Dolphins will need 1.21 Jiggawatts to get back to where they were prior to drafting them.

I kid. Meh, we know we got a football player in White (not a QB but a player). Turner I'm willing to give another year to prove himself. Obviously wasn't ready for the big time but hopefully he's learned something watching.

 

We're not going to hit on all them and it's a terrible idea to judge a pick after one season... It aids in discussion, but I don't think there is really any reason to think that Pat White and Pat Turner has set the franchise back after just one season.

 

They set us back a far amount.

Forget that as far as I'm concerned both are so far busts at where they were drafted and that both picks were wasted.

Look at the wasted time we spent trying to find any plays or formations that Pat White could make yards in. Every minute spent in practice with Pat White instead of with Chad Henne was a minute we will never see again. Every rep given to Pat White was a wasted rep that had a negative impact on our football team.

Not to mention us now needing another QB that we could of found last year. Any of the 4 QBs taken in the 6th round last year would have beaten out Pat White as a real NFL QB.

I almost find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that Pat White was in any way a plus for us. He had one 33 yard run with such great blocking that any of our RBs or WRs would have made 30-40 yards.

His only other "plus" plays were HAND OFFS!

Otherwise he was a drive killer. He is too small to run inside and too slow to run outside in the NFL. And he cannot handle a NFL size football plus as shown in the Senior Bowl practices, he cannot throw short and medium passes over a LOS (they use a 10 foot high net).

Pat Turner is so poor he could not even see the field. And considering that we do not have a great WRing corp, that is really bad.

But the real way to look at this question (besides the time wasted on them) is what players could we of had on this football team instead of them?

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2009/tracker#dt-by-round-input:2

I can list 10-15 players who we could of had instead of Pat White that could of started for us. And 20-30 that would have a good future with us. Click on the above link and make your own list.

There is a decent list of players we could of had over Pat Turner. How about TE's Jared Cook, Chase Coffman or Shawn Nelson? I would have bet money that we were going to draft a TE last year. How much better could we have been with a good young pass catching TE? Jared Cook had a better 40 time then Pat White did.

Being a homer I also would have loved WR Louis Murphy. He is 6'2" 202, is a great blocker and he ran a 4.42 40 at the combine (9th fastest). Yet we took Brian Hartline over him (and I really really like Hartline, I thought before the season he was going to be our best all around WR).

 

I hold back judgement on Patrick Turner but not on White.

Even if White turns into what he was drafted for, a spark for the Wildcat, that's too damn high to pick a player that is only going to see the field in one package. The only way the White pick becomes defensible is if he can learn to be a dual threat. A dual threat as an effective WR while also developing into a serviceable QB.

Regardless, the pick was a flawed strategy from the beginning and wasted.

Missed picks, as we all have learned over the last decade, have very large repercussions. One high missed pick alone dosen't necessarily do it but if you miss on multiple high picks in one draft you are setting the progression of your team back MORE than just one year IMO.

 

I agree that Thigpen was a flat out coup to cover the mistake of White.
However, even obtaining Thigpen does not cover the loss of that 2nd round pick and having filled a NEED with it. It's ok to call a mistake a mistake.

 

Remember this guy in 2006

7 233 WR Aromashodu Devin Auburn

We were all high on him yet nobody gave him time to develop. I will reserve judgment for now on P Turner........

 

I think Hartline makes up for Turner, luckily. Pat White uh I still despise that pick and wish they would make him into a slash player so there's at least some trickery to him.

 

Well the Colts gave up on him too.

 

Exactly. That's why I wouldn't trade anyone within the division. Especially Thigpen, who was... no offense to White... our only legitimate backup QB this season.

True... but, I'm willing to be patient with young players. Even a 3rd rounder. There's nothing wrong with bringing a guy along slowly... as long as he eventually contributes.

I agree. I don't think we're going to see him settle into his role as long as he's the bellcow at WR. To be blunt about it, he just doesn't seem to have the balls. But, I would be very hesitant to trade a young player with no character issues that has his kind of speed and has yet to top out.

 

They set us back quite a bit. The team is still starved enough at talent that it needed players it could immediately use. I can understand the Turner pick. It was a position of need and they had good reason to pick him up. It just happened that Hartline blossomed and Turner hasn't yet. But the Pat White pick was very, very bad for us. That was a potential starter at a position of need for us. That could have been Connor Barwin at OLB or Clint Sintim at OLB or ILB for us. Bad decision by the FO.

 

considering White was a free gift with the Taylor trade, id say not much

 

Did we really need a long term QB prospect early in the 2nd round when we had Pennington and Henne and various other positions to fill?

And even if we did need it, did we need an undersized one who was known mainly for his ability to run and not throw the ball?

Sorry to say, but he's not a long term QB prospect anymore (even if that was the intention). Say what you want about being a rookie, the 5 passes he did attempt were horrendous, as were his passes in the preseason. He has no future as a QB in this league. I can confidently say that after only his rookie season, and I always try to give rookies the benefit of the doubt.

So to answer the question, No I don't think it set the franchise back because we had another 2nd round pick and used it wisely IMO, but it was a complete waste. Unfortunately I see nothing more than bust from the PW pick

 

If we want the WildPat we had better spend some time this offseason and preseason preparing the guy for success. What we did last off season and preseason directly led to his lack of progress and our poor start to the season IMO.

Trading Ginn is not going to make us better. We need to use him in the role he was made for and then suddenly we'll have one of the most dangerous players in the league returning all our kicks and complimenting our #1 and #2WR's. We simply havent used him in his best role on this team.

 

That's a terrible way to look at it.

We made a strategic move to get a high draft pick.
To get a valuable asset which can be used to build key pieces of your team.

I don't give a crap how you get that asset, if you waste it once you get it, it's a failure and the ramifications of such definitely put you back.

 

While I'm happy with Thigpen, he doesn't "cover" the White debacle.....because he wasn't free or part of the package. He cost us a 5th rounder. So basically, last year we spent a #2 and this years 5th, to the fill the #2 QB spot.

Turner I won't rush to final judgment on just yet, but I will say it doesn't look good. I really don't think he was that good of a prospect to begin with and a reach where he was drafted. Him not panning out wouldn't be a shock to a lot of ppl.

The White pick was as stupid as anything I've ever seen even Wanny or Cameron do....and maybe not so much the pick itself but how they projected him and the role they had in mind.

And I can't see how wasting a #2 and possibly a #3 can be called anything but a set back. It puts us in a bad position this year and if we don't have a banner draft, missing on those picks will become even more magnified.

When you have many holes to fill, there are cardinal sins on draft day........like drafting a KR/ developmental WR in the top ten or using the #44 overall on a situational player. You just DON'T do that and when it comes back to bite you in the ***, you can't be surprised.

 

Yeah, the Pat White pick is gonna be very difficult to justify. It's upsetting for a couple reasons: 1) He looked horrible and not equipped for the NFL (obvious) and 2) His being drafted was based on a philosophy I don't agree with.

The NFL is a passing league. I didn't mind the Wildcat last year because it gave us the best chance to win. Hell, it gave us a chance to win a few games this year we had no business being in. But you drafted Henne in Round #2 the year before to be your Franchise QB. Why muddy the waters with a spread option QB in the second round the following year?

We'll never know, but I'd love to get on answer what exactly they were thinking.

 

I couldn't agree more.

Returns on the invest in '09 were basically nothing. Future returns are TBD. So, we'll see. But, the impact was felt by not drafting an impact player at a position of greater need IMO.

I'm sorry, and with all due respect...I couldn't disagree with you more. How we got the pick is irrelevant IMO. How we use it is all that matters. If Pat White ends up being a bust, then that pick was a huge missed opportunity regardless of how we acquired it.

To the OP, and to the question of how far did those two picks set us back? Well, being that we were in the playoff hunt until the last game of the season, and being that we lost 2-3 games we should've won (and would've won with better defense IMO), you could argue those two picks cost us (or, at the very least contributed greatly to us missing out on) the playoffs. Looking ahead, who knows? But, it doesn't look very promising. At least, not to me. It's starting to look like Turner is a real project, who may never develop into a NFL caliber WR (much less a true #1 or #2). Although, I will say this...I would've loved to at least seen him in a game or two (to see what he's got). And, I think most realists realize the Pat White experiment is over. Or, at least should be. Not only because he failed miserably in limited action, but also because we now have a bigger and better version of Pat White in Thigpen.

When I look back at last year's draft, I distinctly recall many of the talking heads being very surprised by both picks. Mayock even used the term "reach" in both cases IIRC. Definitely remember hearing that Turner was projected in the later rounds. And, it now appears (although, yes...the jury is still out) they were right. IMVHO we need to draft much better this year. We need immediate impact players, especially on defense. No projects. No luxury picks. Players that on draft day are looked upon as either likely starters at the position they are drafted for, or at the very least players that look to be competing for starting status or significant playing time. If we don't accomplish that, if we have another miss or two (especially in the early rounds) I believe we are in trouble. This draft has been referred to as the best since '83 as far as overall talent. Our draft position is good. Now, we just need the the Trifecta to make it happen.

 

Did they hurt your eyes? (I admit I was having a problem with them, lol)

Those were simply the players we lost due to drafting Pat Turner. The list of good players we missed in drafting Pat White is larger and more important.

And I do think that having a good pass catching TE could have made a difference for us. I think drafting the two Pats over two better players could of cost us a couple of games.

As far as a long term QB prospect, in the 6th round we could of drafted two QBs that have a real future as a NFL QB (Keith Null and Curtis Painter).

Then if we had needed a OT that bad we could of taken Phil Loadholt or Max Unger in the 2nd round instead of A.Gardner in the 6th.

We could have Clint Sintim, Connor Barwin or Paul Kruger and we would not be looking for a strongside OLB this year.

And we would not need another QB.

 

Feels like a 'spilled milk' conversation. We going to start threads on how Shawn Murphay set us back? You could make similar threads for every player that we drafted and let go. Or is still on the roster in Jason Allens case

Rookie QB played badly? That is hardly a news flash. Lets give White some time to work on his mechanics and bulk up. It is the QB position.. everyone is willing to give a rookie QB time unless his name is Pat White it seems.

Everything I have heard about this guy has been positive. You combine Pat's natural skills, attitude, and work ethic that he will find a way to contribute to this team. WR, QB, or a combination.

It's not like this guy is 5'2" slow and fat. He is 6' quick and a play maker. Let him get adjusted to the NFL game. After years 2 and 3 in the NFL we can have some concrete discussion.

 

Atleast 3 years at each position although I don't expect a backup QB to ever see the field.

Now stumping the growth at different position can't really be measured.

 

If people can call Pat White a bust after so little REAL NFL playing time, then the same should be said of those two underachievers you posted...

Connor Barwin rookie stats:

Games Played - 16
Tackles - 14
Sacks - 4.5

Clint Sintim rookie stats (even worse):

Games played - 11
Tackles - 14
Sacks - 1

 

Yup not great stats but still more productive than Pat White. Pat White might have been a long term investment but Thigpen seems to remove the need for him on this team. He became immediately expendable.

 

Really? I saw Pat White deliver a few TDs and some long gains out of the WildPat formation. Did you see those? Those OLBs you mentioned showed nothing to think they will be Pro Bowlers...EVER...

Thigpen looked great (remember the backup QB is the fan favorite on 80% of NFL teams) UNTIL he single-handedly lost the game for us. And also, Thigpen is not close to a rookie, nor close to a top-10 NFL QB.

I have always thought that Pat White would be awesome at WR and WildPat. I think it is possible he could be a decent NFL QB, but I think the "Slash" role suits him best.

 

Both of these players were rookies coming into a very complexed offense.