Merged:Miami Dolphins talking points: Decision to release Matt Roth a mistake?

matt roth is not my favorite player
it just so happens that jason taylor is a dinosaur
and roth is a young player with a ton of upside
we are very thin at the position
roth could have helped the defense by taking the pressure off jason
that way he could rush the passer
he is worn down
i care about depth which most of you here in this thread dont understand
you need to keep young players who show promise
you dont give them away for nothing
that is dumb team management

[mod] We don't call posters names here, follow TOS please[/mod]

 

Matt Roth, 2008: 53 tackles, 5 sacks, 4 Passes Defensed, 2 Forced Fumbles
Jason Taylor, 2009: 41 tackles, 7 sacks, 4 Passes Defensed, 1 Interception, 3 Forced Fumbles

I'll take the production of the "dinosaur" over Roth any day of the week. To think Taylor has made less of an impact than Roth at the OLB position is pretty incredible. Roth had his shot this season, but he came into shape with a bizarre injury, and by the time he came off of the PUP he was clearly out of shape. Roth did one thing well - set the edge against the inside run. Outside of that, Taylor has clearly been an upgrade in every way, shape, and form.

 

matt roth 2009 16 tackles 10 ast 4 sacks 1 pdef

 

you guys are making a mistake that is often made by fans here
making it a competition between players
taylor instead of roth is your philosophy
taylor and roth was my philosophy
do you know what that gives you
thats right people
DEPTH!
it is a great thing for a football team to have

 

I have no understanding of depth. Gollie!

[mod] Post about the topic, not the posters please [/mod]

 

Missing Madd Matt Roth

I miss my phormer phavorite Phin. It does not help to see that he has 4 sacks, 2 QB hits, 7 pressures, 16 tackles, and 10 assists in less than 5 games in Cleveland. Add in the emotion he brings. He very well would have been our best LB over the past 4 games, and could have made a difference.

What the hell were we thinking?

 

totally agree
be careful i was flamed for thinking like that
the front office made a huge mistake cutting roth
as thin as we are at the position

 

You see this in players often. They have the ability to perform at a high level but for what ever reason are'nt giving 100%. Slap them in the face send them away and all of the sudden they wake up and put out 110%. If we were to play the Browns next season you could COUNT on Roth showing up to show the Dolphins why they should have kept him.

 

Careful, HELL. Let ANYONE show me how Roth would not have helped this team win another game, and be better.

Any "flame" was negated by his play.

 

http://profootballfocus.com/by_posi...e=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Agree on most but, not Roth. He had a VG year last season as well. NO ONE EVER questioned his giving 100%.

 

no need to get snippy with me
i thought it was a horrible move to dump roth
you obviously missed this thread

http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?t=42980

 

You misunderstood. I was responding to the "flamers," and NOT the former "flamee."

In the immortal word of Gilda- "That's Different, Never Mind." LOL

 

It's really amazing how Roth has turned into some sort of folk hero around here.

Roth was a good role player, and that's it. Considering Jason Taylor's play vs. the run isn't a whole hell of alot worse than Roth's was last year, and the fact he can also do more than the bare-minimum in coverage and rush the passer, he's a big step up.

Further, the "depth" argument is silly. The team isn't hurting because it doesn't have enough run defenders to rotate on the field. The pass rush is top 5 in the NFL, and if they wanted to expand the rotation further, even if Roth was on the roster those snaps would be going to other players(Namely Cameron Wake, among others).

 

yeah taylor has a real bright future here
i thought this team was trying to build with young players
instead they take a step backwards by dumping roth and relying on taylor
jason has been dragging his butt
have you seen him trying to contain the edge or defend a screen
having roth would have kept the old man fresh

 

or you mean players play better once they get healthy

 

Roth was a GREAT role player. JT has played really well but, in about half of the games, as one would expect at his age. JT's coverage has been fair at best. Wilson has looked sooo bad in covering for him, when it was his fault to start with. Think Roth splitting time would not have helped JT?

FYI, Wake plays on the other side with Porter. Roth plays the strong side, and could at least nail the TE coming off the line. He did that a lot last year. I have not seen the TE getting nailed, coming off the line, once this entire season.

Call Roth a "Folk Hero" if ya like. I call him a VG player we could have used.

 

To be fair, I think we are trying to build with the RIGHT players.

I dont see enough THIS YEAR in the difference between Taylor vs. Roth if thats who you feel "took his spot/playing time".....and per what I have read, you seem to agree the likelyhood of Roth being retained for next year was slim at best.

Therefore, if this YEARs production didnt show a negative from Taylor vs. Roth (regardless of speculative "Depth Value" this year - which obviously this FO didnt see value in)....and its all but a sure bet that Roth would have been let go for 2010, what is the point of worrying why he was let go this year even with a handle of games remaining.

In the end, he was let go, for a hand fulll of games Earlier than one may be asking/debating over, but he was gone anyway - dead man walking - and his PRODUCTION in this MIA system for 2009 wouldnt have impacted positively any outcome compared to who has been used in 2009.

To me, thats all that should be judged.

 

Facts disagree with that.....and no way he was retained in 2010, so cutting him and feeling the production we have received wouldnt have been impacted, the VALUE of the ROSTER Spot was HIGHER than the value of Roth on this roster.

Thats the only fair way to judge it.....his production in CLE has zero impact on the decision it seems.

 

The TE, as far as I know, is covered by the LB, with over the top coverage by the safety. After watching games at least twice, JT is not getting that done.

Oh well, Charlie Anderson is at least as good as Roth. And I had a bow & arrow to shoot down my New Year's ham last night on South Beach. The full blue moon did help. That's as often he is better than Roth. LOL

 

I was talkin about the last 4 games. THE PRODUCTION WAS MOST DEFINITELY MISSED!!!

Tell me the roster spot who did better?

 

The rotation they have, did better than any speculation Roth would have magically had here.....his #s in CLE would not have been reproduced here in his role in this system. He didnt do that here, not his role.

The cleared ROSTER SPOT by cutting Roth, held more value than if Roth occupied it...thats the bottomline fact as to why the FO cut him.

 

How the hell do you know that? I talk to a couple of players, the subs, no stars, and they do not know that.

I know two of the Herald's writers, and they do not know that.

If ya wanna post something like this, BACK IT UP. I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN you cannot.

 

The "rotation" with Anderson and Moses had a combined 8 tackles in the last 5 games, nothing more.

Roth did about the same last year, same coaches, same system.

Care to re-consider?

 

Just as I'm certain you cannot know otherwise!

 

You just validated my point....so nope, nothing to re-consider.

Jettisoning Roth, did not negatively impact our rotations production to replace what he provided in this system.

He was not going to be retained in 2010, so cutting ties a few regular season games early in 2009 freed up a Roster Spot that was far more valuable.

 

There is no comparison between both Taylor's skill in coverage, and the degree of difficulty relative to what he is asked to do.

Roth rarely was anything other than short zone/in the flats. Taylor is drawing man coverage vs. legitimate defenders, and is covering people beyond basically the line of scrimmage, which Roth never really did.

FYI? Give me a ****ing break.

I'm talking about the pass rush rotation, in nickel and dime defenses where another linebacker could have really been helpful. Roth was not in it here, nor is he really in it in Cleveland.

Further, it's not even apparent that the Dolphins defensively wanted to continue to use their Strongside linebackers like they did with Roth. Every other aspect of the defense is essentially akin to a Wade Phillips style 1-gap 3-4 besides the Strongside linebacker last year.

 

I was referring to his Cleveland numbers, NOT what Anderson & Moses did. LOL

 

Absolutely correct. The difference is that I post as an opinion, whereas you were posting as fact.

 

Show me where I said its a fact????

And I also stand by what I wrote.

 

If this were a poll, I would select: It's a mistake.

 

His CLE #'s are meaningless. And over the course of 4 games he has equaled Anderson & Moses #'s as well - many times.....thats the point.

 

dont confuse what you READ INTO posts with what they actually equate to...OPINION and Deductive reasoning only.

 

Here is me giving you your frakin break. LOL. Roth was not in on most passing downs. How many passes did we give up in non passing downs? How much pressure did we apply to the QB in non passing downs? How many big plays did we give up in non passing downs? JT has been far from good in coverage in non passing downs.

Everything I've seen this year shows that it is very apparent that the Phins have continued to use the Strongside LB as last season with Roth. Your other aspects are not part of this discussion.

JT has been unable to do it alone, as most know. Roth would have been a HUGE help.

 

He has dwarfed the "replacement" numbers, and then some. That is the point , and why I feel we have missed Roth.

 

Thanks Sherlock. LOL

I do respect you ability as a "solver of mysteries." I am a wizard of math and as such, question thing which "do not compute."

It's been a fun discussion but, I need to go watch some football for our future draft picks. Thanks to all.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

 

You were "flamed" for being so arrogant enough to claim that you were the only one who understood the concept of "depth". When you make your point in an inflamatory way, you get flamed

 

Roth's contributions in bare-minimum coverage was not responsible for any dropoff in the coverage of non-receivers. He didn't hurt the team, like alot of people claimed, but he wasn't asked to handle anything of note.

Roth's "pressure" is pretty irrelevent too. The guy got his sacks here against backs and tight ends. Virtually all of them came where he was given a #2 TE or FB in man coverage, they stayed into block, so he was isolated with them in pass rushing. Taylor, still don't get blocked by a TE or FB.

Then you are clearly not paying attention. It should be obvious from the positioning, at least. Roth played largely heads up over a TE, Jason Taylor does not.

 

For real, I've never seen so much undeserved condescension from one person here in my life.

 

Agree, to a point. JT, in non-passing downs, lines up over a TE, then moves. How has that worked out? Don't know if that's JT or Pasq. In any case, JT has been exposed, and made Wilson look foolish.

Roth popped the TE, as well he should, to throw things off. JT has not.

Roth's pressure matters, regardless of who it was against.

 

I don't understand why you think Jason Taylor has been "exposed" in coverage, because I can't think of really one instance. Which is especially noteworthy considering how often he ends up out in the slot.

Further, Taylor is one of a handful of 3-4 OLBs with positive coverage metrics on Pro Football Focus.

I don't know how you are getting Wilson looking foolish off of what Taylor is doing, either. Yeremiah Bell and Tyrone Culver are going to be the guys directly behind Taylor and most likely to be covering the Tight End.

Roth was good at jamming a Tight End, but you're acting as if jamming the tight end is some intrinsic, inherent portion of being a strongside 3-4 OLB. Most of the linebackers in the defenses around the league do not, and instead play the wider techniques Taylor is playing this year.