I wanted Willis big time. I believe Mr. Clean was one to. I also tried to defend the Ginn pick but now I'm searching for ways to....
He's not usually double covered, almost never really, but he does move the S. Generally the S on his side stays a bit deeper and further outside. The S also seems to wait an extra beat before attacking the runner or an underneath route. That's a huge benefit to the offense as you're basically delaying the convergence on the running back by a few yards and protecting the other receivers from having the S drift into their zone.
It's a good point, but at the end of the day Ginn has to make the catches and produce to warrant the playing time. The drops are sucking the life out of the fans and I would have to believe the team as well. The advantage that Ginn's speed brings to the table only goes so far. Hines Ward or Santonio Holmes had a bad drop in the endzone Sunday- you could see the reaction from the Steelers head coach. I wonder how many more drops like that would occur before Mike Wallace got into the starting rotation. And yet, as usual, it's not that simple- with Wallace you get more speed. When Ginn is yanked you get less on a WR core starved for speed. That being said, I think that reducing Ginn's playing time was the right thing to do.
the only way to defend Ginn IMO right now is to look at the positives of having his speed in the game and like Rafael pointed out quite correctly all the benfits that come with having such speed on the outside. It makes our running game and passing game more effective. The other thing you can do is simply have patience and hope he can work through this rough patch he's going through right now. His hands were never as bad as they have appeared the last three games so there is legitimate reasons to believe that they will improve. Certainly there is some getting used to Henne, like Griddles pointed out, so maybe it comes together soon. The problem I see going forward is if this funk that Ginn is in continues for much longer it is going to have major negative pyschological effects on Ginn. Right now I think he has all of his teammates behind him (as evidenced by the genuine affection after the 2nd Jets game) but at some point that will change (Porter may already be getting fed up) If he loses his teammates he will prtobably melt down ala Beck. He needs to have a bust out game in the next two to salvage his season going forward
I just don't think the other WRs are very effective against the #1 CB so we need Ginn to take that guy in addition to creating the space. When Ginn doesn't play the defense sits within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage. The running game and the short passing game is suffocated. That's about 90% of ours and most offenses. So the coaches are stuck with the occasional drop versus the entire offense bogging down. Neither is ideal but the drops are the lesser of two evils.
what kills me with Ginn is just how good he could be if he starts catching. Its flat out scary. He does get open ALOT! and with his speed if you hit him in stride and he holds on its apotential touchdown every time. The potential is so astounding that you have to make him your number one coaching priority this offseason. The receivers coach (and I hope Dorell is let go) should go and live with him this offseason along with Henne. If they ever harness his ability we will have our second Paul Warfield. If not we have our second John Jett
that was the one benefit to benching Ginn imo. Our receivers are horrible against other teams number ones. We no longer have to speculate. We now know. And the The domino effect that is caused by that kills our entire offense
leaky vessel to set to sea KR, PR, 4th WR & end runs would work, however he is simply not a starter @ WR would like to see Pat Turner get some playing time
I tend to agree with you. One negative I have with Ginn is he is a slow learner. We have to accept that and give him time painful as it is
Yeah, but what can you really do about that. Given Ginn has a learning disability and the wide receiver position is a 2-3 year curve... He has said in the past that it takes him twice as long (maybe if even three times, if I remember correctly) to learn things compared to the average person. I'm not saying to give him twice as long to learn things (5-6 years compared to 2-3 years), but I wouldn't even consider pulling the plug on the Ginn project until the end of the 2010 season.
I understand your point and agree to an extent with its merits. But Ginn was removed from the starting line up then apparently re-inserted. I'm curious as to how many reps he got as compared to the other WRs. Given his slender frame and KO return duties- and bad hands and route running- I still see him as a #3 that can come in and provide a deep threat as needed. Another poster summed it up well- pick your poison. Put in a WR that can't get open and stretch the field or one that can't run good routes and catch the ball. Unless Ginn mends his ways that's what we're stuck with this year. I'm just tired of rolling my eyes and shaking my head after a Ginn drop like the early one against the Bucs. It just sucks the life out of the room.
Does this mean the magical 3 years is now 7 or 12? I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really Hope not
I wouldn't say 3, but I wouldn't "cut" him until after his 4th year if he hasn't shown improvement. I'd be fine with giving him his full five years on his contract, but I'd also be fine if we just gave him four years... I just don't want to outright cut him like some have suggested. I don't think anyone would suggest that he should get 7-12 years to prove himself.
I agree. He gets the bonus fourth year because he has flashed serious potential and we seem to be agoningly close to making it pay off. This offseason is everything for Ginn. I really hope he understands that and dedicates his life to proving evryboidy wrong
GinnJr. is limited if not an outright bust he'd better get his running shoes on there is no other way for him to make his bones on this team Run GinnJr. Run!
I think that was why Ginn was reinserted and and why he was always the default #1 through camp. His reps on offense were nearly non existent against the Jets. Then they increased against NE and TB. I would guess that if you used a rep count that he was the third or fourth WR. I still think Ginn is salvageable and next year he'll be relatively cheap salary wise. With the low trade value and the cap hit from the signing bonus, I don't see the benefit in cutting or trading him. That just sounds like angry (and ultimately stupid) fan talk. That being said I don't think he's ever going to be a #1. It's the same thing I said this off-season when I was lobbying for us to get a true #1. Now prior to this year he's never had a problem with his hands. Statistically, his catch % was about even with Camarillo's. So I don't know what is causing this current funk. I think part of it is that early on he was being used incorrectly. They were asking him to make catches that don't fit the type of WR he is. I think that and the change to Henne have caused him to start dropping everything. Hopefully, he can snap out of it b/c the team is better with his speed. If he can get his catching back to what it was the last two years then he could be an effective #2, especially if paired with a big target WR and a seam splitting TE. If he stays this inconsistent then he is only useful as a KR and a spot holder until we can find another WR with speed.
Seriously? Funny, it wasn't till like week 12 last year till the Ginn faithfull were talking about how the up-coming offseasn would make or break him. What's next? Double Dog dare? Besides two kick returns and one catch I am seriously thinking was blind luck, remind me again of all this SERIOUS talent he has showcases Even with that 53 yard Bomb, he is still like 3 or so with receiving yards and receptions, and he has almost half as many flat-out drops as he does receptions.
He's had several games in his three years here where he has shown flashes of being able to be a really good/great receiver. Even the Indy game this year. Everyone wants to focus on his drop that game, and throw out the rest of it. He had improved his first two seasons, and he's struggling this season. No one is denying his struggles. However, I don't understand why people just focus on what he's done bad THIS year, and ignore what he's done good over his whole career so far. Posted via Mobile Device
he gets behind the defense on a pretty regular basis this year. there is the potential the general rule is 3 years. last year his problem was getting open. this year he fixed that but all of a sudden is dropping passes so he gets another year to put the two together
Ginn is truly frustrating. He needs a multi pass to go see the Wizard of Oz- courage, brains, and heart. Then he can go back and ask for hands. It's a harsh assessment, but the tape doesn't lie. If Ginn had turned out to be even nearly as good as Desean Jackson so many problems would have been solved.
Football isn't a math problem. You can't say "It's year three - he isn't amazing - lets cut him!" Maybe this is the best way to describe Ginn - he is probably never going to be a guy you rely on to make the big play to win the game. He WILL probably be the guy who produces a few big plays a year that DO win us games. Our problem is two-fold - 1 - we were using him as the guy that had to win the game (which he has admittedly proven he can't do) 2 - we have no one else to fill that role so he is defaulted back into it A true #1 that we can count on and rely on for the type of catch Reggie Wayne made last night would allow us to have Ginn be more of the Garcon and make the big plays that break the game open.
Ginn runs horrible...horrible routes. There was one play this past weekend where Henne had to dump it off short to Haynos on a third down play..because everyone was covered. When they showed Ginn's route...he was supposed to run a route to the first down and then a break to the sideline...Henne couldnt make the throw because Ginn got no seperation. He got no seperation, because he rounds off those breaks, instead of cutting and making a sharp break. He almost negates his speed on a ton of plays. Because of his speed...CB's have to try and stick with him, which gives Ginn the upper hand if he ran crisp, perfect routes. I remember watching him early in the Colts game, and he was actually doing this. Selling the route with his head and hips and shoulders. I even remember some commenting that they hadnt ever seen Ginn really work his routes like this....in the offseason...alot of the players commented on how much Ginns route running has improved. Why has he gotten so bad....its like he is lazy. He also never attacks the ball...he never extends his arms. On the first play action from Henne that was a deep bomb, Ginn appeared to slow up some....but then the ball ended up just out of reach...so why did he slow down? I just dont think hes ever going to amount to much, because his problem is in his head. Hes got all world talent. But something is keeping him from getting there.
If Ginn doesn't show some serious improvement over the next 7 games, I have a feeling our FO will do everything they can to part ways with him. If they can't and decide to keep him one more year, I just hope we add enough talent at the position where Ginn doesn't have to be counted on. Other than returning kicks and running a fly pattern, he's got very little to offer and I don't ever see that changing.
My honest guess is that they'll draft/sign a speed guy to take his place after this season. I'd really like to see what he could do as a #2 or #3 opposite a stud like Vincent Jackson, Dez Bryant or whoever, but I think his days are numbered. The fact that they haven't put him back on punts tells me they really don't trust the guy. Sad.
Yet they put him back there at the end of the 1st half when we needed the best field position possible in order to score with minimal time?
They put him back on punts when they feel they have enough room to set up a return. It's pretty obvious they don't trust him fielding the ball in a crowd.
Well, its like Mark Reynolds of the D-backs. He very very rarely makes contact, but when he does, its about a 5 0-50 chance of leaving the park. EDIT: Actually, its much like going for it on 4th and 2 on you're own 28
He was also back there with Bess IINM. They have to be worried about him muffing punts, which says alot given Bess' recent struggles.
IMO they want him focusing on WR moreso than worrying about being a fulltime punt returner too. I think that's the reason why they were reluctant to put him on kick returns this season. I appreciate everything that Patrick Cobbs does/did for this team, but only a blind man could say that Cobbs looked better than Ginn on kick returns IMO.
As AZ noted, click the multi-quote button until it changes color and then you move on to the post you want to quote and it should drag it with it. I'm not sure honestly. As rafael said, I think you have safeties playing with a bit more width on the field when Ginn is running down the field because of the speed factor. Problem is, whilst Ginn is widening the safeties, the middle becomes open but we have no one to catch the ball down the seam. That's where David Martin is sorely missed IMO. No problem. I haven't seen a lot of LaFell yet, although I have about three or four games of his on my DVR as well as on tapes so I won't comment on him much other than I've seen him drop passes that are very catchable. Same goes for his teammate Terrence Tolliver. Benn is a bit frustrating IMO because I still wonder how well he runs routes. However, I like his toughness. Demaryius Thomas of Georgia Tech is a question mark IMO. I like his blocking and I like his athleticism but I question his route running and his speed. A lot of teams play close to the LOS against GT because of the option game and I think that helps him a bit. To add, the DB doesn't have a lot of safety help from what I've noticed. Greg Little of UNC is a former tailback, I believe? You could be right brother, either way it's an issue that needs to be resolved. He's either going to get it resolved by hard work or he's going to get it resolved by being shipped out of here. That's a nice catch but that is also poor discipline by Vaughn Telemaque of UM as well as Randy Phillips. Also on that corner route, he doesn't sell it all that well IMO. He needs to use his upper body and feet to sell that. Good point on the contract. Lowber I watched on Cowboys camp and he was not impressive. Agreed on Kuechenberg's comments. Nice comparison, I enjoyed reading it. Also, that sounds like an interesting read that I may look at. Thanks. OT: I saw your post in the draft forum in reply to mine. I'm still going through several tapes so I won't be able to respond to it immediately. I'll try and knock out more WR tape this weekend and I will hopefully be able to give you my full thoughts by next week if that's alright with you? Thanks for your patience.
