yeah they got surprised the first play of the game and never let him get open the rest of the game. Hartline against a number 1 CB is a crime. You basically make Hartline irrelevant. Hartline against a number 2 is a productive receiver. Ginn has shown the ability to beat number ones. Hartline didnt. To use the first pass as some verification of Hartline's prowess is ridiculous. He couldnt get free the rest of the game. Completely stoned. Ginn will start nbext week and the Hartline is starting over Ginn experiment will officially be over
and you know this how exactly after only 7 games? Because Ginn has been thrown to more times? Speed does nothing for you if: A. you can't catch the ball B. you do catch the ball, but do not try to get YAC and just fall to the turf or head straight to the OB line. C. You make a lame attempt at catching the ball, hoping to get a flag D. Can't run a proper route to get yourself open
Oh really, You put Teddy out there in place of Hartline and Henne's pass isn't overthrown cause Ted would have run right under that one for another score, easy! The two wins against the Jets can and should be laid directly at Ted Ginn's feet. Out of 61 points put up (including JT's) Ted put up 18 and without those 18 we lose both games. If some are going to blame him for singlehandly losing a game or two then you have to credit him with both wins against the JETS. Way to go Ted, you da man!!
You act like you have this huge highlight reel of this happening.......you can't because it doesn't exist. He's made ONE big play as WR this year, bro.....ONE. It's nice you're excited about his returns today, hell so am I. But it doesn't change anything concerning the WR position.
You put Ted in there and it's just as likely he runs a poor route, tips the ball in the air for an INT or any other number of things.....it's all speculation.
Oh, please. Ted Ginn is who he is; a good Kick Returner - sometimes. And a lousy Receiver. What he did today was nice, as a fan it made me very happy. But in no way does it change anything else Ginn has done, which informs who he is as a player just as much as his success today. Next week I hope he runs back two more - and stays the hell away from the field otherwise.
Your above post in no way addresses his performance in the Saints game. The Saints game he was hit in the hands 3 times and failed to make the play. You could just say he had a bad game.. fine. But Ginn's play has given people legit reasons to call him out. Ginn does get too much of the blame I agree, but he helps fan the flames with his play at times. Didn't Ginn have like 3 returns for TD's his rookie year that got called back on penalties? The guy has always been a great returner. He had a rough spot last year when he fumbled a punt or two and then Sparano put Bess in.
1 game does not make a career. One game where he finally showed up as a return man, doesn't erase all the bad that has happened at WR. Did he have a good day yesterday as a return man? No. HE HAD A GREAT DAY! It took 3 years for us to see the return man we drafted at #9. Have we seen that at WR? No. Have we seen glimpses? Yes. That being said...he doesn't get a free pass because of yesterday. He gets an "attaboy".
While you are correct that Ginn would trade for more than Hartline. That method of measuring who a better WR is flawed. Ginn you trade more for because he can return kicks. He is a natural. Now if you say you trade for one of these guys and you can only play them at WR.. then .. well your right Ginn probably still gets more. Then you have the whole upside argument and things get muddled. So it's not a clear method of evaluation. The only clear method is the coaching tape and staff. We don't have access to that. But lets try this. Jets Game 1 against the Jets.. Ginn 2 catches for for 57 yards and 1 TD, 53 yards came on the bomb. Game 2 against the Jets... Harltine 0 catches for 0 yards. But if he catches that pass then it's 1 catch for 80+ yards and 1 TD. Saints Ginn - 2 catches for 16 yards. The obvious drops, pick six, etc. Hartline - 3 catches for 94 yards. And Hartline's big catch was against the starting corner #22. That was the same corner that Ginn dropped the pick 6 on. I am not that familiar with the Saints. But I will ASSume he is a starting corner and not a nickle back. So that is Hartline making a play against the same level of talent. I am not saying Hartline is a better receiver. He probably isn't but lets act as if Ginn is vastly outplaying the kid at the WR position as of late.
Ok first I'm going to start with the Ginn vs. Hartline arguement. The fact is that Ginn has been a WR in this league for 3 years, Hartline is a rookie. Saying that there is really no difference to me in their productivity at WR. I would go out on a limb and say Hartline is going to be better next year than he is in his rookie season. Second I'm going to say Ginn has struggled this year, but you also can't base his entire preformance off this year. Ginn has been very sure handed since he got here, he's dropped a few here and there but thats part of being a reciever. I for one believe I've seen more drops since Henne has taken over the starting QB position. There is no way to argue the fact that there is a huge difference between Henne throwing the ball and Penny throwing the ball. I'm sure its going to take a little while to adjust to the speed of the ball getting there and the passing not being as accurate as Penny throwing it. I would be worried if Ginn were the only person dropping passes, but we have also seen Fasano, Bess, Ricky, and Ginn dropping passes. I'm just thinking they have to get used to Henne passing them the ball, and Henne has to make sure he puts the ball right in the hands of the reciever.
That is a really good point that I failed to think about. The lob passes shouldn't be that hard to catch, but those rocketballs are much harder to catch than Penny's floaters.
Ginn is vastly superior because he has speed. As much as you want to discount it it matters. You choose Hartline's best game but dont include Ginn's Indy game. Ginn has had two very good games as a WR and oine exceptional one as KR. Hartline has had one good game as a WR. One. If you're going to use stats that means Ginn is twice as good a WR and 3 times as good a football player. Bottom line you might as well debate why Thigpen should be our starting QB because it makes about as much sense. There arer two types of number one receivers. Speed guys and the playmakers. Hartline is neither. He is simply a gym rat possession guy. Nice for what he does but not as valuable. He doesnt change a defensive game plan whatsoever. Ginn for all his flaws must be respected and feared. You simply cant risk letting Ginn get behind the defense which is why you often see a safety cheat over and help. This opens up the intermediate game for Camarillo, Fasano, Haynos and Hartline to exploit underneath. It also keeps the saftey an extra couple of yards back which helps our run game. Hartline does none of this. There is zero respect for him. No defense is going to alter anything for him. No defense is going to fear him Ginn may be our Chris Chambers but even when Chris was here we simply didnt have a better option. I like Hartline but he'll never be in Ginn's class unless Ginn has knee surgery and loses all his speed
They would want him as a returner only. Speed is nothing if you're running without the football. PERIOD He's been doing that. Maybe they were used to the soft balls Chad P would throw instead of the heat Henne throws. To me that makes more sense.
let GinnJr return everything: punt & kick returns then use him as the forth (deep threat) WR his ability to run in the open field is incredible he's moved from bust to re-defined in my book
Who is discounting Ginn's speed? I said he has more upside in a trade even if you restrict them to playing WR only. Why else would Ginn have more upside than Hartline in that situation? Also I said LATELY I didn't say ALL YEAR. And I even said Ginn is the better receiver. So I am glad you setup that strawman so you could tear it down. Mission Accomplished.
You must be thinking about FH. I think you misjudge the phans on this site. We are happy he produced this game. Hopefully he produces every game.
Dan Marino would disagree with you Dan Marino, who was on the show this morning as he is every Monday, agrees with me that having Ted Ginn and his blazing speed on the field can only help the struggling offense. When I asked him about Ginn’s limited playing time on offense against the Jets, he said, “Being a former quarterback, it doesn’t hurt to have someone that could just run by everybody. "I think of Tony Martin. He was a guy that could run really well. A guy that has that threat on the outside that defenses know that no matter what you think of him -- as a complete player or not -- he can just run by people. That’s a big-time threat.” Marino also said he was amazed by Ginn's explosiveness. “That was amazing. It shows you he has talent. He has the speed and the ability to make big plays. If you’re a fan, he’s going to be what he’s going to be as far as a receiver, and he’ll get better, I’m sure. But he can do what he did [Sunday]. That’s something pretty special, to be able to do that twice in a game -- both for 100 yards http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/sports/dolphins/joerose/
That's Dan Marino trying to give you some good advice........Ginn is what he is Up until those two "returns", there wasn't much you could say in his defense. And as far as him as a WR, there STILL isn't. All you have to hold on to is this false notion that he keeps the defense honest. Please tell me when that's gonna start because I have yet to see it.
Just because some of us don't get all giddy after ONE game where he didn't flat out suck or just disappear........doesn't mean that we're secretly hoping he fails. Him failing, negatively affects our favorite team and when you imply that we're more worried about being right on a message board, than we are about the team winning, then you're just way out of line. I could easily make a case against those on the other side of the argument......it's pretty obvious from how excited ya'll get and the things you say to throw it in ppl's faces, that you're just as guilty as any one else on here of doing what you're calling ppl out for... You know the difference between a "Ginn sucks" thread and a "where are the Ginn haters" thread? There is none.........period
the only thing one has to say in his defense is he's better than hartline, turner, bess and camarillo since thats the only thing that matters for the dolphins. There really is no debating that. Noone on our team comes close to being able to do what he does
You're right.... No one gets less YAC... No one has poorer hands... No one disappears as well... Etc, etc..... Ginn is nothing more at WR than part of a complimentary group. You have ONE play he made this year so far that you can hang your hat on to support your argument. Meanwhile, the rest of his performance this season makes it obvious to most that he'll be lucky to ever be a decent #2 WR. Dangerous KR, very limited WR..... And you can produce no solid evidence that says otherwise....it doesn't exist As far as Hartline? Are you so obsessed with defending Ginn that you have to tear down Hartline to help make your point? The kid has shown more promise as a WR in his short time here as a rookie, than Ginn has in two and a half seasons. If Ginn didn't have those skills as a returner, you'd have a hard time getting more than a 6th round pick for him as a WR right now.
Doesn't give you a special license to judge ppl that have a differing opinion than yours or make you a better fan.....altho from your post, it's obvious that you think you are. There's no difference between you "loyal" fans as you deem yourselves, than the guys that post those stupid "Cut Ginn now" threads/posts. Both groups are being ridiculously extreme and both are guilty for the way these kind of arguments never cease to end. You think you're better fan than me because I think Ginn is a very limited WR and have no problem saying so? That's just ridiculous....
lol....it's painted all over that previous post of yours You support everything the Fins do and all their player because you are, as YOU put it, "a true fan". Sorry my friend but that also implies that those that don't do as you do, aren't "true fans". Personally I don't care how big of a homer you are, how often you wave your pom poms. I just think you have a one sided, biased view of what constitutes a "true, die-hard fan". Anyone, regardless of whether they are a homer or generally negative, that spends their free time on a fan forum discussing their team, is obviously a die hard fan.
Upset? not hardly.....this is the internet ;] And I honestly have no bone to pick with you or anything else, in fact my opinion of you is that you seem like a pretty nice guy. I just think that it's ridiculous for ppl to make posts criticizing or rolling their eyes at someone for having a negative opinion on something and then not realize that all they are doing is adding to it, keeping the fire burning. As I said......there's absolutely no difference between a Ginn hate thread, or a thread calling out the haters, like we are posting in right now. Both keep this crap going..... So yeah.....go fins and you have a good rest of your day
Look; our banter aside, this is the bottom line: In Ginn's body of work, there is the whole - then the bad - then the good. He did good yesterday. One day. He caught a nice ball the last Jets game. One. He has dropped many balls. He has run out of bounds short of the 1st down many times. He has cringed - physically, obviously CRINGED - before contact on the field. He has been so overwhelmingly bad that he was universally considered a failure prior to yesterday's game - UNIVERSALLY. Having a good play or two, or even a good day does not erase all the failures of the last 2 1/2 seasons. Ted Ginn is who he is: a fast guy; a guy who can return a kick for a touchdown occasionally; and a very poor Wide Receiver who cannot be counted upon to make a catch, and who exhibits shameful cowardice on the field. That's it. Discuss it further all you want, but that defines who he is; not a couple of good runbacks.
One play? The guy had a 100 yard game against the Colts, Had a 50 yd plus TD catch against the Jest. Had other catches in other games. Worst hands? Yeah those great hands of our other receivers are getting us so many yards. YAC? Once again it helps so much to have so many receivers with so much more yards than Ginn. You knowe what you sold me. I thought yardage and TDs were whats important but now I realize its YAC. Doesnt matter how many yards you get total only how much YAC you get.. Lol no one disappears as much. yeah all our receivers are just lighting it up except for Ginn. He's obviously the only one who disappears. I forgot that we were considered the greatest show on turf part 2 As for Ginn being a SOLID #2. Noone is arguing the guy is an awesome number 1 just that people who wanted him cut or riding the bench behind our other receivers dont know what they're talking about. Is there even one person that doesnt think getting an extra receiver to help Ginn and company isnt a good idea in theory? I missed those posters that are adamantly opposed to adding a plamaker receiver like Dez Bryant Ginn has more yards than any other receiver therefore he has the ultimate argument in being the beat receiver on the roster. I know in your world when players argue for their contracts they dont argue how many yards and TDs they got, they argue how well rounded they are, how good their hands are, what a good work ethic they have lol. As for tearing down Hartline? How exactly am I doing that? I have always supported him. I jyst dont believe in ludicrous assertions that he's as good as Ginn. Guess in your mind if a receiver isnt as good as Ginn thats tearing him down. Guiess anybody who doesnt support Hartline being the starter is tearing him down. And yet you go after other posters querstioning them questioning you. laughable
I stopped when you asked was I on drugs......altho I would imagine they would help make it easier to read the rest of what you wrote Edit* At least you removed the part about me being on drugs.....lol I'm done.....think what you want. I don't hold being wrong against ppl;]
Adam, bringing the Colts game into the argument is probably poor salesmanship. And to be a number anything Receiver, a player has to CATCH the ball. Ginn's problem is that he doesn't, not consistently enough to be counted on.
Drugs????? Whatever do you mean? Are you seeing things now? Must be the same things you see in Hartline
I think that we're gonna talk about drops, then we should look at ALL the receivers. Ginn, who prior to this season was pretty sure handed, is dropping balls. Bess, who people on here have been saying was better than Ginn since we got him, is dropping balls, and fumbling like crazy. Fasano is droppong and fumbling. Camarillo is doing his thing, no complaints with him. So, guys who were fairly dependable, Ginn and Bess, are having very similar issues. Maybe it's the receivers coach? Just throwing that out there. Posted via Mobile Device
Not really. I think Ginn is the type of receiver he is, a speed guy. I never thought he was going to turn into Randy Moss and I dont hold it against him that he hasnt become Moss. I compare him to DeSean Jackson and Devin Hester. If anything I might be a bit disappointed that he hasnt progressed as fast as DeSean Jackson but he's on pace with Devin Hester. I also dont think his hands are really a problem. He has average hands, nothing special but nothing below average. He hit a rough spell agfainst New Orleans but every receiver has thsoe kind of games. devonne Bess and Fasano have both had just as bad if not worse games then him. Once again I dont think the argument is whether he is a pro bowl freceiver but rather is there one receiver on our roster that is better since this is all in reaction to having his starting spot given to Hartline who quickly rewarded Sparano by producing a zero catches for zero yds game
I think you hit on something Ive been complaining about the last few weeks. None of our receivers are playing as well as I had hoped and I think that since its the entire receiving corps and not just an individual player oir two the blame should go to our WR COach Dorrell. I am not very happy with him right now and am not sure what he brings to the table other than coiaching for Denver and UCLA
I've thought about this; could it be the coach? Think about it: Bess arrived here almost a finished product; great technique, superlative will and work ethic. You could say the same of Camarillo; and Ginn, although never as consistent as you'd want, had made some strides last year. Now Bess seems to have regressed, and Ginn DEFINITELY has. Hartline has played, but sparingly; and despite flashing promise, has also disappointed. Turner has yet to see the field - an oddity in itself given the unspectacular nature of our Receiving corps and his ideal size for red zone play. Can it be that Dorrell is deficient? I always thought that Chris Chambers never got a fair start due to being on Wanny's watch, with the incredibly poor coaching that accompanied it. Could it be that we're in a similar situation now with our young Receivers? If it is true, then it is bound to set the team's development back and negatively impact the "3-year plan" because we would have wasted valuable rookie-contract time for our wideouts.
Maybe....but most coaches all look better when they have some serious talent at the position. We don't have one WR on the roster that isn't limited in some way and most, are very limited.
How come no one mentioned the fact that before those 2td returns, the previous 2 returns, he was taken by Jay Feely, their freaking kicker?!?! i love the fins as much as the next guy, but im not a biased fanboy. As for being a WR, he had ZERO catches. Why is he getting praised for doing what he is supposed to do?
