NO Skeet, dont think like that brother, your not giving this hybrid a chance to see what kind of dynamic it can bring to the overall gameplan..his position has yet to be defined, he has the potential to be the ultimate X player on offense. he has that type of talent...screw the proset qb stuff, imo, it was never the intention of this front office to play him in that realm.
The point that I think KB is making is that most scouts and talent evaluators (himself included) feel that White doesn't have the ability to be an NFL QB or even develop his skills at that position, so what you are seeing is confirmation of that analysis. If a guy doesn't have the ability to read a defense, if he doesn't have the ability to throw the ball to the right man, if a guy hasn't shown that he can make the necessary NFL throws at any point of his college career, he isn't going to be a successful player at the next level. I still hold to the idea that we reached for White, in part because Harvin was off the board and because there was a possibility that the Pats were going to reach for him with one of their 2nd rounders. Maybe he realizes that and feels that it was a wasted draft choice? I know that's my take, I've said from the moment that he was drafted that it made little sense to draft a QB with the FO so high on Henne and a player who really isn't going to contribute on every play. Why draft a player who is A) going to take touches away from Ronnie in the WC, and B) whose success is going to be directly tied to the WC, a series of plays that may or not be as effective as they were last year? When you have more pressing needs, why draft a luxury player? With that said, now that he's here I hope he can develop into an effective player, I just don't see it. I'm going to remain cautious and try not to get discouraged by the reports coming out of camp. The problem is, if White continues to look like a player who doesn't belong at his position, all of that pre-draft analysis is going to seem more credible with every wobbly pass and every missed receiver.
How so? He hasn't thrown a pass in a game as of yet, he has not had the chance to read a defense as of yet, he has not had the chance to find the open man as of yet. All I'm seeing is a TC report being used to further whatever pregame notion that folks may have concerning Pat White, let him play, then anaylize, good or bad, but until then...why bother? P White threw two TD's yesterday, does that mean he is the Starting qb? Of course not, yet that is the stance that is being taken over a couple of TC interceptions in the first week of camp. I don't believe the Pats wanted him L2G, they had the #34 (KC pick) and the #38 and passed on him twice. As for the reach, that's fine, taking a Qb is always a risk, as long as one is willing to modify that position based on performance. That is what happened with Pennington, he was "noodle arm" and hated even when we signed him, he led us to the playoffs so at the very least he should be given credit for that much because he proved it out on the field. Pat White deserves the same sort of chance imho.
" Look like a player that doesnt belong?.." we have'nt even seen him in his element L2G, ya'll are judging him based on what you think a proset qb is supposed to show..not even taking into account the premise that he might of been drafted to add to this specialized offense and its effectiveness, or quantifying how this 2nd round pick could benefit the 10 to 15 percent of our whole offensive strategy. I consider myself a talent evaluator as well, and i agree, and have said on the record, i dont believe his skills translate into becoming an NFL proset qb. However my analysis sees something else, an enhancement to an offense that we are committed to..i see his skills being perfect for that enhancement.. I dont think for one second that parcells and company thought that pat could be a proset qb.....i dont think thats so far fetched to think..I think it, you think it, chances are, they might be thinking that as well, so if thats the case, then why in the world did we draft him in the 2nd...maybe because of what iam trying to say here? maybe, just maybe, they see the x factor role for the wildcat to have serious value..and if they do think like that, then judging him based on some proset throws without ever seeing him in the element he may of been drafted for, well, lets just say i diagree with that analysis.
Andrew, that's a strawman argument. The point I made was that NFL scouts didn't feel that he could be a QB after watching him in college for 4 years, that's plenty of time to pass judgment on his ability. They felt that his best chance to make an NFL roster was to switch positions. Think about that for a second, he played QB in college for 4 years and they determined that he would have a better shot at making an NFL team if he switched to a position that he had absolutely no experience playing. That says alot IMO and I hope that White can prove them wrong, otherwise we wasted a high draft pick and missed out on a few very good passrushers. I don't know bro, there are reports that they are looking at Vick to come in and run a form of the WC, they obviously have an interest in that type of player and the reports that Belichick had interest were out there. What does Chad have to do with the conversation? Chad gets credit for being a good game manager, but he also gets the criticism for his limitations, that's only fair.
Your last sentence is what I think everyone has an issue with. Ten to fifteen percent of the offensive snaps is what makes everybody second guess the selection. I understand that he could do this and do that but 10 to 15 percent is very little, especially for a guy that you invest a second rounder for. When I think about that, it doesn't make me second guess the selection but it does make me think about how they are going to use him. I said it around draft time, I said it in my thoughts on the draft thread and I'll say it again; I don't see him being only a Wildcat quarterback, I could see him run drag routes across the field and the staff trying to get him in open space because if there's one characteristic of his game that stands out to me, its his elusiveness in the open field. As for him playing Quarterback, I won't comment on that now because I've said my thoughts in the past and I plan on watching tape once again tomorrow on him. I'll probably post a thread on it and maybe people will want to discuss it. Maybe not.
We have for 4 years I've been saying that since he was drafted, since the time that his name was called. I was sending Raul (The Rev) text messages to his phone because he was unable to be infront of a TV and I complained about the pick then because he was drafted to be a specialty player. We aren't a SB contender, we're in year 2 of a rebuilding project and our draft picks are important, we don't have the luxury of overdrafting a player who is going to see limited action. A team like the Pats can afford to take those chances, we still have some major holes to fill and it was a foolish selection IMO.
I definitley dont see him being just a wildcat qb as well, been sayin it all along...his value here is being an x factor for the hybrid part of this offense...iam not sure how you, me, or anyone can say a player that has an impact on 10 to 15 percent of the offense is not worth a 2nd round pick, especially if theres no way to truly judge the impact that the 15 percent has on the rest of the gameplan {which imo it does}...If the kid does become that x factor that keeps the defense honest while the oline and ronnie take care of business, then i think hes totally worth a 2nd rounder. I guess me debating against that he was drafted to run the spread is now moot, because he threw a pick. I saw a vision for the player and this offense since last year, nothing that this regime has done has made me think otherwise. Much respect brother.
My point is we spent a 2nd rd pick on that. I would have been just as happy to have a Brad Smith or Senaca Wallace run that same part of our offense. A 2nd rd pick for a person who will never start is way too much. I would rather take a player who at sometime if not right away will start.
I agree that it does have an impact on the game plan. It makes defenses study more game film on the Wildcat offense, meaning it takes time away from the base offense. However, what I think one has to consider is, just how much of the Wildcat are we going to see? If its ten percent of the offense again then how do you justify drafting a player who won't be playing a great amount of snaps? If they stick Pat White at quarterback then he's going to be the third string there for at least a year in the base offense. Would his impact be equal to as say a guy like Clint Sintim at strong side linebacker? What about to a phonebooth guard like Andy Levitre, who brings versatility and a need to a position that troubled us last year? What about Paul Kruger, a strong side linebacker that is also going to be featured at defensive end for the Baltimore Ravens? Would his versatility as a strong side linebacker, weak side linebacker as well as a 1 gap end be better for us than Pat White and his 10% of impact on the offensive side of the ball? Like I said earlier, if they plan on using him all over the place and he has success than the fans may believe the pick was justified. However, if he's used strictly as a Wildcat quarterback then was drafting a guy that early smart for us? Why didn't we just pick up Julian Edelman if that is the plan all along? That question I ask myself when I think about the addition of Pat White and that question right there is what makes me think that we aren't going to see him featured as a Wildcat quarterback only. They must have a plan for him as at least a back up quarterback in this league. If that's the plan, then was it smart to draft a backup in the second round? Again another question that I think has to be answered in the next few years. I'm not sure what you exactly mean by this but I don't view it as a moot point. I think the thinking of this team implementing some of the their own spread offense is legitimate. Likewise.
This team needed talent on offense, year 2 or not., needed playmakers on offense, a player that can create in space, juke a defender...he fits with the hybrid, he compliments what we need when ronnie is running the show. unless there are a bunch of 2nd round picks that are seeing the field more then 15 percent of the time in their first year, i stand corrected. This offense is here, the committment is there...why did we committ?...because we identified a player {ronnie] that has an uncanny ability to execute it..once we saw that player do what he does, we concentrate on the oline, that being done, the next level was to find a partner to run alongside side him and to play off each other, a player that can threaten the defense with his scrambling ability, athletisism and arm..enter Pat white...nothing that i have said or debated has anything to do with him running a proset offense.
Is this part true? I remember reading before and after the draft that it was nearly 50/50 that if he can be a QB or not. Most of what I read was not about what KB was saying, it was more about how he is just too short. Two people who I have great respect for, Jaws and McShay believe that he has the ability to be a QB. Also most scouts thought he was the best passer at the combine. Not saying that he is a slam dunk at QB. Most 2nd round qbs do not make it in the NFL. I just do not believe it is a general consensus that the Dolphins are wasting their time with a player who has no shot of being a NFL QB.
Everyone who is commenting negatively or positively on the Pat white acquisition at this point is insane!!!! IT'S WAY TOO EARLY! When did the wilcat come out???? a couple weeks in against the pats right? THESE CAMPS ARE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC!!! Do you think that Henning and TS are going to allow everyone and their mother to report on how well pat white is acclimating to the wilcat???? That's absurd... We aren't going to really know how good this kid is for another month. EVERYONE WHO WANT TO ARGUE WITH DJFINFAN ABOUT HIM NOT MAKING IT AS AN NFL PLAYER AS A QB AND THAT HE NEEDS TO PLAY ANOTHER POSITION OR BUST IS MAKING A MISTAKE! DJFINFAN is telling you that he already is another position player. He plays a new position in the nfl... THE HYBRID. Peter Warrick once changed the complexion of the seminols offense doing what we created for the NFL last year. Percy harvin is gonna be an impact player in minnesota because of what the dolphins want pat white to be! PAT WHITE HAS A SPECIAL POSITION! Just like a PUNTER.. he plays only from time to time yet his performance can yield incredibly GAME CHANGING PLAYS! AM I SOLD ON HIM YET???? NO.... But for the love of god last year at this time I thought Sparano was an O line coach with a funny name and today i'd let him MARRY MY KID SISTER!
Declaring him to be a bust or waste of a draft pick is absurd. I agree with Alen1. I believe Pat White will play more than one position, and make his presence felt. I can see him getting some time as a slot receiver, running the wildcat, running the base offense, etc.. In April, I hated this pick, too. Max Unger was my choice. But, I'm not declaring White to be a wasted pick. It's to early.
Wow. The disapproval from the masses is disheartening about Pat White. Guy has only been a Dolphin for 4 months and we are already saying his career is a wash and he will never amount to anything. Sheesh. There are Buffalo Bills fans who have higher expectations for Pat than we do. Let the guy play some downs first. If hes a situational player, he's a situational player. Just hope that in that situation its a touchdown. The draft pick is spent and you can't undraft it. Just support the guy and hope that his stay here is more for that better than for the worse. And people wonder why guys like Vince Young crumble under the pressure. Fans are completely relentless......sheesh. 4 months... Sheesh.
We haven't seen enough out of White to "confirm" anything, good or bad. I'm really having a hard time figuring out how Pat White won all those games at WVU if he can't read a defense and doesn't have the ability to throw the ball to the right man. As for your assertion that he can't make NFL throws, several scouts agree that Pat White threw the ball the best out of any QB at the NFL combine. Let's not forget about the intangibles that Pat White brings to the table. He is a proven winner. Don't forget that. I'm sure that played a big role in Parcells drafting him. Arguing about whether or not he will be a bust in the NFL 4 days into training camp is nothing short of absurd.
They?? Who the hell is "They"? Why, they's just plain and fancy they, that's who they is. Do you really think ALL or even most College Scouts felt that way after watching him play for 4 yrs, just because KB does? If you were watching and listening before the draft, plenty of people with better credentials than you'll find on a typical message board, felt White has the tools to become an NFL QB. And, to think any fans would already be questioning his chances, based on a few days of his rookie camp is beyond ridiculous.
You've watched White play a lot these past 4 years at WVa and you are questioning his ability? Please.
One thing I keep hearing is wobbly passes and not having a handle on the ball. iyam, it sounds like a rough transition to the NFL ball + the heat and humidity of a South FL summer. That ball is bigger and slicker than anything he has ever played with at this point. The wet balls could be over come maybe if he plays with gloves and that might give him a better grip on the bigger ball. Here is a pic of him in camp yesterday...no gloves: Here is a pic from mini-camps with him wearing gloves. Why the change?
I'm not sure I agree that most scouts thought he couldn't play QB in the NFL... You are going to see a lot of spread offense in the NFL in the next few years. That is why White will be an NFL QB. Hard to judge him when he isn't even running the plays he was drafted to run. They aren't going to give any of that info away just yet, so we have to wait and see how he does in the spread.
I highly doubt they show anything new no coach shows their cards in the presason, hell there is little to no gameplanning. I admit I was very skeptical of the pick at first as well(especially when Stintim was still there) But it has grown on me, the kid is talented, despite his struggles it is insane to call him a bust after 4 days of practice when he has to learn a new offense, develop chemistry with different players etc.
There ya' go...take note who posted it...Omar doesn't know much about the game...you and I probably know more...I wouldn't worry...
And if reports that we had serious interest in Percy Harvin were true, there goes that theory right out the window. I think the FO blinked, I think it was a combination of their first choice being off the board and thinking that our biggest rival would select White. Even if the general feeling was 65/35 instead of your example of 50/50, is that a glowing endorsement that the player is going to be capable of playing his position? You can go to any umber of draft sites and read their analysis, most of them echo the "he needs to move to WR" sentiment. "They" can be whoever you want them to be. And there were plenty who felt that he was better suited to move to WR and even more who felt that we reached for him early in the 2nd round. I believe that our gurus know more about the game and prospects than the average fan, but I don't subscribe to anything that they say as gospel. I spent plenty of time leading up to the draft researching players, watching vids, reading analysis, etc and I came to my own conclusions about White and the other players that we drafted. So 4 years of college isn't enough to make an educated judgement? So what is this whole recruiting/scouting process I hear so much about and why is it used to determine where a player should be selected in the draft? So you're equating the quality of college defenses with NFL defenses? How is it that Vince Young looked so good in college without the ability to read a defense, then fizzled in the NFL? The knock on him is......that he has a hard time reading defenses and can't adapt to the NFL style. Hey that's great, Ryan Leaf knocked some socks off too if I remember correctly. Vince Young too. College accolades mean nothing to me, there are several players who were "winners" in college who flopped in the NFL. Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Desmond Howard, Rocket Ismail, etc, etc, etc all were more highly touted than Pat White coming out of college and none of them lived up to the hype because the NFL is a whole different level of play. Am I arguing that he's a bust? I could have sworn that I said a few times that I hope he does well and proves everyone wrong. I also said that it's too early to get hyped up or bummed out on what is happening in camp, but then again what do I know? I just typed it.
My opinion then, my opinion now, has not changed or wavered an inch, the bottom line, the kid was drafted to enhance the wildcat , to threaten a defense for ronnie, with his own skills, in the wildcat, keep the defense honest, while were in the wildcat, and play a two man game with ronnie, with ronnie continues to run the wildcat....that was the vision imo, and it looks like my thinking is in line with the regime. Anyone who keeps talking about how he will never be a proset qb, and how his struggles early in camp confirm that analysis, is not trying to understand what iam saying..or open their mind to the fact that what i am saying, might be correct analysis.
Did Vince Young ever run an offense in the NFL that his skill-set was actually suited for? Any reason why people are ignoring the proliferation of the spread offense?
Reread my post and keep my words in context That's a bit different, no? Again, I've said that it's too early to get hyped up or jump off a cliff over what you're reading on Omar's twitter page and that I hope White can be successful, but that gets overlooked because people are quick to jump on others for their opinions. I'm not a rah rah guy, I'm not penciling White in for the probowl as some were on draft day, but I'm also not going to be one of those "He's a BUST!!! OMFGZlol" type people either. I've suggested that folks be cautious and keep in mind that these are rookies and they are going to have their struggles. So please don't put words in my mouth.
Did you really watch Pat White through all 4 years of college? Because those that did saw him rack up a lot of wins and look pretty impressive in doing so. And that's exactly why he was drafted when he was by people who do exactly what you're talking about and who know a lot more about football than you or I do. For someone who throws around the "Strawman Argument" around quite a bit you're doing a pretty grand job of making one yourself. Let me go back to your post - You state that he didn't have the ability to do any of the things you mention at the college level, and then state because of this he can't do it at the NFL level. Those are your words not mine. My rebuttle to that was obviously he did have those abilities in college because he had considerable success. You don't have the success Pat White had without being able to read a defense or hit the right guy. I give you the fact that college success doesn't always equal NFL success, but what else do we have to go on? You might not be calling him a bust, but you are giving plenty of reasons why you don't think he will be successful. And clearly that is what this debate is about. Whether or not Pat White has the ability to be successful in the NFL.
There were also several people who make a living in the NFL who felt that White was better off as a WR, so what's your point? Umm, no. Go back and reread what I said, I prefaced my comments by saying "I think what KB is trying to say" and used the word "if" to described what I thought he was arguing. As for the comment "You don't have the success Pat White had without being able to read a defense or hit the right guy.", I already gave you an example, Vince Young, Michael Vick is another, Tim Couch, Joey Harrington, etc. College football is littered with players who are superstars at that level, players who look much better than they really are and who disappear in the NFL, why is that? Could it be that there is a major difference in talent, preparation, strategy, quality of the game itself? Could it be that in college athleticism can make up for lack of smarts and understanding of the game,? Yet in the NFL where everybody is an athletic physical specimen it is much harder (some could argue, impossible) to get by just on athleticism alone? To say that White did it in college so that means that he can do it in the NFL is completely overlooking countless examples that prove otherwise. So for the strawman comment, you are overlooking the difference in quality between the NFL and college by saying that White succeeded at the college level and implying that means that he has all the tools, so no I wasn't engaging in a strawman. And for a player that alot of scouts and draft folks feel doesn't have what it takes to play his college position at the next level (based on his college resume), that's a major red flag for me. It says that he has a big uphill climb to prove himself and I have said that I hope he does, otherwise we wasted a draft pick. To root against the guy is to root against the Dolphins. I'm giving reason why I think it was a bad selection for this team at that spot, nothing more and nothing less. With so many other question marks on this team, I think it was foolish to draft a specialty player with the group of passrushers still on the board. If the FO drafted him in the 3rd round, I might feel differently, but they drafted him above several other players that would have filled a bigger and more important role on this team. If the FO really saw White as a WR, wouldn't he be out there practicing with them? Didn't Ireland say that the organization viewed him as a QB? So why is everybody quick to say that he's going to be some sort of X player who will be doing a little bit of everything? When I see that I can't help but think "jack of all trades, master of none". They don't know what to do with him so they classify him as some sort of special weapon that only our FO was wise enough to spot. That's faulty IMO.
And while there are many reasons why White may not work out as an NFL QB (size), it certainly will not be because he can't read a defense. His football IQ is very high.
Sorry that I thought a completely new sentence with a completely new thought was you paraphrasing another poster. Sure seemed like that was your statement. You're really asking a lot from me to know that you meant all that by using the word "if". See when I see somebody use the word 'If' followed by a statement I assume you are merely using a simple 'If, then' statement. When did I say that? Please show me. Never once did I say "He did it in college, so he can do it in the NFL" or anything close to that. Once again, you are the pot calling the kettle black with the "Strawman argument". None of us know whether or not Pat White can be successful at the NFL level. Also, none of us know that he won't. The only thing I took issue with in your post was you claiming he couldn't read a defense or hit the open man at the college level. Of course, you're throwing another poster under the bus for making that ill-informed argument so I guess you're off the hook.
Ok, if you are so sure about that, name some names of who felt this. Since guys who scout for pro teams don't go around freely giving out their analysis of individual players, I wonder to whom you specifically listened to say that. We heard both Ron Jaworski and Mike Mayock say White is a solid pro QB prospect. There were others, but as I recall, those are two well regarded analysts who sang the praises of White.
Some seem to be jumping on the news that hes struggling in the proset to back up about their analysis of him not becoming a proset qb.. You see, imo, thats not groundbreaking analysis, thats what i agree with as well, and have always said. However, to totally disregard what his skills CAN do within the CONTEXT OF THE WILDCAT, shows me that some are not aknowledging this point because they are so consumed with being right about the whole proset qb thing, OR their not giving any creedence to the idea that THATS why Parcells and company MAY OF DRAFTED HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE FOR. To be a WILDCAT PLAYER..plain and simple, a wildcat player... what a revolutionary idea ehh. when are people gonna respect the notion that he may of been drafted just to be a wildcat x player, with Pat and the coaching staff to define what that position will become.
Sounds like a lot of coach-speak from Sparano. I bet deep down he just wants to say "Listen, we aren't going to show you guys what we really plan on doing with Pat White. Thats for Belichick to find out"
I agree with you to a degree. Those may be the expectations they had of him for year 1. But I think going forward they have an expectation that either a.) He'll compete with Henne for the QB job, or be a serviceable backup; or b.) He'll be able to contribute elsewhere on the field. WR? I could be wrong, but I think this regime simply saw a talented player who has a pretty solid college track record and fits in well with the system they are trying to put in place. Who knows if he'll ever live up to where they drafted him, but I trust Parcells, Ireland, Sparano and company have a plan for Pat White and I hope it works out.
you are so money and you dont even know it... some are all twisted in their heads about when sparano says they drafted him to be a qb....duhhhhhh, what kind of qb is the secret, noone's gonna find out that until week 1.. Its all wildcat related baby...watch...
