Ortitz...Roid user

i didnt say the crime dog was a better player, i simply said they had similar careers. that is all. i cant see 50 points difference in OPS being the difference between a first ballot HOF and a player on the outside looking in when many of their numbers are similar.

 

Huge shocker

Still waiting for a positive Schilling test, would be the best day ever.

 

I'm surprised at how solid McGriff was. I mean I knew he was a nice player but his numbers are much better than I thought. He had some very good to great years in his career. However he does fall just short of the HOF.

 

Why do you think Schilling took steroids? I mean besides from the fact he helped beat the Yankees in 2001 and 2004

 

Fair enough.

 

LOVED McGriff. However, the things Chipper has done as a switch hitter are accomplishments only a few have to their resume.

If I had a vote, the Crime Dog would be in. You could pencil that guy for 30 HR's 100 RBI every year it seemed.

 

I don't know. I mean it's the HOF here and I'm a big believer in that only the elite players should be in it. I just don't see McGriff as that type of guy. Especially when he played in an era where guys were putting up unreal numbers. I mean he wasn't better than Frank Thomas or Mark McGwire, both of them I'd put in (PEDs etc aside). I personally wouldn't put him in.

 

your also talkin about in the steriod era where he was clean and putting up those numbers. obviously it not a fact that he was clean, but honestly with this era and the steriod scandals, mcgwire not getting voted, voters have it in their mind that he took roids with no positive test, it should be both ways IMO.

 

Perhaps the other day when I mentioned "A guy on the fence" I should've used McGriff as the example instead of Chipper.

I said I'd put him in mainly because I'm biased as a Braves fan. But that's why steroids have ruined the game so badly. Guys like McGriff aren't locks because of guys like McGwire and Sosa. (BTW, without PED's I don't think McGwire sniffs the HOF. JMO though)

If Jim Rice gets in, I think McGriff will eventually get voted in.

 

Oh hey I agree. I personally think the HOF voters' moral stances are funny. Guys like McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Manny should be in the HOF, PEDs or not. The voters have no problem voting in other players that had spotty reps, yet PEDs or being a suspected user is taboo.

Rice got in because of the PED era and also because the Red Sox research department kept pimping his name out there each year. That could hurt McGriff because he really doesn't have a single team that would probably do that since he played for so many.

There's really no way of knowing whether McGwire would have made the HOF with or without PEDs because we don't know if (I personally think he took them but he's never been caught so I have to be PC) and/or when he started to take them. Guys like Bonds and Clemens you know it helped them because of the numbers spike around the time they started.

 

I love you in the most manly non-relationship way possible.

 

Thanks. I already have a semi bro-mance with Phunwin, but I don't see why we can't have one as well. Follow me on twitter. Haha.

 

Schillings critics point out his history of being hurt early in his career but in the 2000s as he got older he made more and more starts.....so who knows (well besides Canseco...hahaha)

 

I may be wrong but I've always heard a lot of steroids increase injury frequency, yet help you get over them faster.

To be serious though, I would LOVE to see a clean game knowing everyone is playing on the same level field. But I know that wont happen.

 

Not necessarily Roids specifically, but HGH etc are proven to repair injuries (Pettitte claim) and prevent a return to "fitness" faster. Especially for Pitchers they want to shorten the time it takes the body to naturally get arm strength back, etc between starts, live arm vs. dead arm period.

 

The guy did throw 226 innings in 1992 and 266 innings in 1993 (including the playoffs) at age 25 and 26 after throwing a max of 90 innings at age 24. The next two years he didn't pitch a lot in either 1994 or 1995 so it must have been from an injury, I didn't google it or anything so I don't know off the top of my head but one can point to the heavy work loads from 92-93 for a reason he was hurt. After the 1995 he was a workhorse. And just looking at his numbers quickly there's nothing in there that jumps out at you for there to be any real red flag. He started coming into his own at age 25/26 and then he got hurt and it took him 2 years at age 28 to rebound which isn't too unusual for a pitcher. Just look at how pitchers rebound nowadays from TJ surgery. It takes them a good 12 to 16 months to recovery their stuff.

Personally sometimes I think it's just wishful thinking/hoping on some fans part that a guy from a rival team was a user.

 

Yeah. Steroids weaken the tendons around the muscle and bones, which makes it easier for someone to tear them (which is why people point to Nomar who split his wrist tendon in half and then a few years later tore the tendons and muscles right off the bone near groin muscle). Steroids also do help people recover quicker from injuries as well so it's almost like a Catch 22.

 

It has nothing to do with him playing for a rival team for me personally, I just can't stand the guy as a person, period.

 

Not to mention the term "steroids" is very broad, there are many substances that are considered steroids that are used for and do different things.

 

Oh I wasn't talking about you, or anyone else for that matter, I was just saying in general. Do you want to know how many times I heard 'Jeter or Rivera used PED and here's why' arguement. Like I said the whole thing is going to be a witch hunt until the list is released, and really even then I don't think it will be over with. The sooner everyone stops paying attention and cares about the whole he did PED thing, the quicker MLB will move on from it. Thankfully it's already starting to happen.

 

Moving forward is easier with the current testing and penalities...caring about it is a slippery slope...I care, and moving forward doesnt change my opinion of them tarnishing the integrity of the record books..and I am not in favor of anyone found guilty of using PEDs to be HoF worthy.

Doesnt mean the HoF doesnt have or wont have PED users in...just that I would be against it - especially voting in a known abuser.

But I am old school that way! Scarlet Letter time as far as I'm concerned for each and everyone of them!

 

Until, of course, he goes to the Dodgers where he hits a whopping 13 homers and 40 RBI. His outstanding .249 average made up for it though.

Okay, I have changed my mind. Fred McGriff is NOT a hall of famer...punk ***.

 

The big difference is that Jones played shortstop and third base, while McGriff played first base. That and 66 points of OPS will go a long way to explaining the difference.

It also doesn't hurt that McGriff suffers by comparison to contemporaries like Eddie Murray, Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro (setting aside the career-wrecking steroid thing, of course). McGriff is an unfortunate victim in some respects. If he'd played 10 years earlier, he'd have been a Hall of Famer easily. Unfortunately his prime was right at the end of the number-depressed era that's getting practically no consideration from the BBWAA (look at poor Alan Trammell), and right before the steroid era made those guys look bad by comparison.

 

I think most would concur that Bagwell was a roidhead, as was McGwire and Palmeiro, Eddie Murray and Frank Thomas both deserve to be in. The ****ty thing is, if McGriff hit 7 more homeruns, he probably gets in. But ending on 493, probably keeps him out. Its unfortunate.

His saving grace might be if the backlash about the roid users comes back around and the aforementioned BBWAA decide to reward those who seemingly did it right, before letting the cheaters in. I doubt it though as the BBWAA has notoriously been too critical of who they let in and who they don't.

 

I still say the HOF should be for the top elite players. McGriff just isn't that. He had a very very good career but he falls short. That's nothing to be embarassed about but he just wasn't a great player.

 

With the exception of Furcal, former Braves have a history of going to the Dodgers and sucking ***. (Andruw Jones, Jason Schmidt, Greg Maddux, JD Drew, etc.)

 

I think the BBWAA is taking a bass-ackwards approach to this, quite apart from the hypocrisy of punishing guys after the fact for rules that weren't in place at the time. They're punishing the roid-heads. Fine. But so far, there's no evidence that they're rewarding the guys who "did it right". The 1980s were a down era for offensive baseball, and yet they aren't rewarding guys from that era because their numbers were comparatively lower. Essentially, they're having it both ways: punish the guys with the steroid-inflated numbers, and punish the guys without steroid-inflated numbers. Pick one!

I will, however, state that there's one positive side of this: when voting for Cooperstown, there's nothing wrong with erring on the side of keeping a guy out. If there's doubt, they shouldn't be in. I wish they had applied that standard to Jim Rice, but that ship has sailed.

 

I dont see that at all....the "without steroid-inflated numbers" are properly being measured against the HISTORY OF THE GAME and HISTORY OF THE HALL more importantly.

Who have the BBWAA left out in the recent STEROID era that haver numbers that are hall worthy???

The BBWAA should be measuring guys against the HISTORY OF THE HALL.....I dont agree with the BEST GUY FROM YOUR ERA mindset (I dont want the TALLEST midget concept)....I believe in the BEST GUYS EVER IN THE GAME mindset.

 

So far, just Mark McGwire. But that's because he's the first Hall-worthy guy from the steroid era to retire. You can make book that Rafael Palmeiro's not getting in, and Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa are probably going to have a heck of a wait.

 

How do those names even he qualify on a "without steroid-inflated numbers" list without a hugh laugh and smirk on anyones face?? Known PED-USERS (roids, HGH, etc) should never ever get in without a ticket for entry!

So as of today, no one who is a "without steroid-inflated numbers" guy has been kept out is what you are saying. And thats my point.

So far the BBWAA isnt having it both ways...they are having it the same way since the HALL begin.... if you arent a PED abuser, your numbers will be measured against the HISTORY OF THE HALL...and not your current era only.

 

You asked who from the steroid era is being left out. I answered. McGwire, Palmeiro, Bonds and Sosa are being left out of the Hall. McGwire has been left out and if the mood of the voting public is any indicator at all, the other three will either be left out or left waiting a good long while. Maybe Clemens too, for that matter. Of course those guys used roids; no sane person would deny that. That's not the point. The point is that the BBWAA is punishing those guys despite the fact that they broke exactly zero rules while they played. AND they're punishing guys from before the steroid era because their numbers pale in comparison to the steroid era.

 

Agreed on McGwire. He absolutely should be in the HOF. The thing you fail to mention is that McGwire NEVER failed a drug test nor is there any proof he took PEDs (besides from Canseco's claims). Look I do believe McGwire used PEDs but there's no evidence, everything is all here say. It's a witch hunt and guys are going to get screwed over because of it.

It will be interesting to see if guys like Ivan Rodrigiuez or Mike Piazza get in. Then we'll see how fair or credibile the BBWAA are. Because there's just as much evidence of them being users as there is with McGwire.

 

Didn't McGwire freely admit, during his playing days, to using androstendione, which was placed on the banned substance list?

And yes, it will be interesting with Piazza and Pudge. Obviously, I love Piazza, but it was pretty much an article of faith that he was a juicer. I think there was a running joke about his backne.

 

Ok, you implied the BBWAA was leaving both sides out..the "with Steriod/PED inflated numbers" and "without Sterioid/PED inflated numbers".

I was asking who are the "without" that the BBWAA have left out. And to date the answer is no one.

Thats my point (opinion) they are not punishing guys from before the PED era by measuring them against guys of the PED era. The BBWAA measures all eligible players AGAINST the history of the hall's members...thats it. no other group of players is used as a measuring stick...only HoF members.

Its a straight forward process...now I do think we still have some guys on the fence from past years that havent received the necessary votes as of yet...but they arent on the fence because of stats put up by PED users. They are on the fence because of their numbers in comparison to current members of the hall.

Thats the way it should be.

 

No he should not....!

Yes, he was the poster child for Andro. And if Canseco is to be believed (and he has be right on everything to date) the Andro bottle was actually used as a diversion to worse stuff he was using..it was a red-herring left in his locker for the press to focus on, it was done on purpose to mask the other stuff, so Mac could point to the Andro (sold over the counter) and say yeah, I showed you the andro..thats all I am using, crap.

 

Why not? He has the numbers. He was a huge impact player during his time. He was certainly good enough. It can't be a numbers thing.

 

Yes but andro wasn't banned from baseball until 2004 or 2005 I believe.

 

No, you're right in that, thus far, they haven't left out any "clean" players from the steroid era. My problem is that they're unfairly leaving out "clean" players from the pre-steroid era. Again, I'll keep beating this drum: Alan Trammell SHOULD BE a Hall of Famer. Bert Blyleven should be in the Hall. And you know what? If there's room for Jim Rice in the Hall, there's probably room for Dale Murphy; their careers were pretty damn similar.

 

Artificial numbers should be left in the fantasy world he achieved them in....he cheated the integrity of the game and if he was elected you give credibility to the era, and at the same time tarnish the numbers of what the current members of the Hall achieved.

Its a slippery slope and he should not be allowed to be slide down it into Cooperstown. I am confident based on Conseco's testimony that he is an abuser....and none of the 104 names should ever be voted into HoF.

Thats the one reason I know the BBWAA want the list released....its an automatic exclusion list. The sooner the better to avoid voting for someone on the fence of quilt or innocence.

Now, what will be interesting is if Ricky, Eck, or whoever the person is that Canseco states he knows is a user and has been elected. Hopefully that person is the only one that is HoF...and its known for ever.

 

andro was also street legal at the time he said he took it as well I believe. It was banned later by the fda.