Thanks for adding some perspective to this derailed thread Deb. I guess the emotions run high because people do have a long connection with what he did while he was here, its amazing how emotional people can get on a certain player and form their perceptions after that player leaves. The only real fact is his return is a rumor, and a very unsubstaintial one at that, that in all likelyhood will not materialize. JT was a dolphin ICON for a lot of years so it is a topic people can become very emotional about either good or bad. Everyone is entitled to their feelings on weather the like him or not, or want him to return or not and under what circumstances would they "approve" JT back in South Florida if even at all. Posters should be able to freely give their opinion and stop muddling fact and opinion, and certainly not attack other posters opinions on the topic, I have a hard time believing anyone knows what really happened between the FO and JT that led to his departure but like you pointed out Deb, it doesn't matter, its not what is important and certainly should not cause a disruption between members of this forum. If you don't like why JT left based on what you read or heard, and don't want him back...so be it. If you still like JT, don't care why he left but would enjoy his services back in miami, in any condition...then so be it. Just dont' lose focus and attack the people who stated why they approve of the thought or disapprove to JT coming back to miami, their all feelings and opinions on the topic, nothing more.
Jason's own words and actions take away the assuming, it's there plain as day brother, links included. Do we know what exactly was said, if anything, when Parcells snubbed Taylor? No, but Taylor himself says that it happened and that he was upset. Do we have a transcript of exactly what was said when Taylor notified the Phins that he wouldn't be attending any offseason programs or camp? No, but Sparano himself said that the conversation took place and that Jason wasn't showing up. Pointing these things out isn't assuming that we know everything and legitimate criticism isn't "condemning his character" as others have claimed. Jason wasn't committed to the team, he handled the situation poorly and people have a right to be upset with that. I don't think anyone has done that, a few people tried to make it seem as though that was the case, but I didn't see anyone saying that he wasn't a great player for many years. Noone would be having this conversation right now if this was a Jamal Fletcher type player.
so you are calling Jason a liar then? It couldn't have been an instance in which Sparano assumed that JT wasn't going to attend training camp? F
Yes we know the actions I am referring to s urrounding events. From what you have said you can draw the conclusion there was a trouble or you can take bp at his word and draw the conclusion he just did not see him. You do know JT said he would not be in the offseason programs but you also have JT saying he was getting ready to go to camp when he got the call he would be traded. In other words you can make the argument you know what happened, but given all the contradiction I think the logical thought is there is more to the story then we are being told. Wasn't really referring to you when I said that but if you want to defend yes there has been some condemnation, like it or not. No just pointing these things out does not mean you are automatically condeming jt, but I think you have to admit some comments have done so. Difference between calling him a great player and referring to the man as he was a cancer to the team as he has been referred to.
And I quote "Here's what I know: What I know is that Jason Taylor -- and I'm glad we've gotten the information; that's important -- I know that Jason is not going to be at any OTAs [organized team activities]. I know that Jason is not going to be at any minicamps, and I know that right now, that Jason is not going to be at training camp. "That being said, we need to discuss the current players on our team right now that have been busting their butt for nine weeks here." http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3406638 I would say it came from his Agent. And that last sentence would make you think that they were not happy that he was not there.
Debby and Aqua Crush that is why I have left this conversation. I don't wish to continue an argument where people are entreched and don't seem to be going to budge. Its just going over and over and no one is moving.
First of all. JT was trying to be funny. He could have put it more delicately but he probably went slightly over the top by saying Green could be scrambled eggs. Nevertheless, I see nothing wrong with undermining the HC but only if he is an incompetent, useless one. Ever heard of impeaching the president? It even states in the US constitution that you can undermine authority. This is because authority comes with the risk of abuse of power and gross negligence. I call going 1-15 gross negligence. Last I checked the Miami Dolphins is not an military unit where you cannot question the chain of command. The Dolphins is a franchise; a business and in business no where does it state that you cannot question the chain of command. What you want is a dictatorship but unfortunately for you we live in a free world. So yes, if the HC is a bumbling bafoon, I would like to see action and not pacifist. No. Why would I say they agreed to a truce if I have no proof of it. If I did I would be speculating because I have no evidence. You have a desire to speculate. I base my statements on fact alone. So Taylor walks into a room with 20-25 people in it. Parcells is concentrating on film. Parcells did not see Taylor and did not have his hearing-aid on. So he didn't say hi and Taylor walks out thinking he got snubbed. Clear misunderstanding on Taylor's part but it does NOT show that Parcells was dissatisfied in Taylor for the previous season and thus wanted him out. He said everything to the contrary in the evidence I provided you. Taylor was complaining like the girlfriend who thought she didn't get enough attention one day. Does that mean you don't care about her? Does that mean there is rift? Coaches can do what they can to MINIMIZE injuries. - true but only with regard to minicamp. Here is video saying that he was going to attend training camp in July. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDhf...r.com/2008/5/30/542596/jason-taylor-interview - speculation. did sparano say that his hands were forced? Really? - more speculation. I beg and pleed with you to show me proof. He intended to attend training camp until he got traded - I showed you the link to Taylor's introductory press conference in Washington where he clearly stated that he was PHISICALLY at Dolphins facility days before training camp to get ready for training camp. PHISICALLY being at training camp obviously negates whatever Sparano had said about expecting Taylor not being at camp. What part of that do you not understand or am i beating a dead horse. - speculation, he may have requested it but show me proof that he DEMANDED it (meaning that if he did not get it he would hold out; holding the FO to ransom) Also in your link http://www.palmbeachpost.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/palmbeach/miamidolphins/entries/2008/06/01/live_from_the_hard_rock_taylor.html?cxntfid=blogs_inside_the_dolphins - again only minicamps but intended to attend training camp. -false, not according to Parcells. If Taylor felt snubbed that's his problem. - speculation, he was forthright about missing minicamp. Show me where Taylor said he threatened to miss training camp. If you are going to use that Sparano statement again please beware that 1) that does not constitute threat and 2) All of Taylors words and actions are contrary to any threat you are perceiving. - they waited for a 2nd rounder to trade away an aging former MVP DE...so what. Nothing was said about being dissatified with Taylor. Parcells said everything to the CONTRARY - more speculation....give up already. Not even close unless you can provide evidence of what you are saying.
Not true at all, now who is making assumptions? Parcells is hard on his players though, he's known for running a boot camp, if you disagree with those methods, by all means feel free to contact him and let him know that he's doing this football thing all wrong. One thing that you are missing (intentional or unintentional) is timeline, which is critical to the series of events. Who said what and when is important to understanding the "why". Without timeline this whole conversation is pointless because it's a never ending circle. When did their opinion change? Look back at when Taylor was adament that he was snubbed and when Parcells was ignoring any talk of Jason Taylor, now look at when they spoke out and their stories changed. What's the difference? What changed between the time of the rift and the makeup? Simple answer is the draft. Leading up to the draft the Miami Dolphins were shopping Taylor and were seeking a 1st rounder in return, no team was willing to give up such a prize asset for a guy that A) was not committed to more than one more year, B) who was in the waning years of his career, and C) who carried such a hefty pricetag. The Dolphins actually played their hand wrong in that instance IMO, we could have had a 2nd rounder last year and added an extra piece to this rebuilding puzzle a year early. But teams held onto their picks and found their pass rushers via the draft and the Jason Taylor market all but dried up, with the exception of the Packers who Taylor wanted no part of because of their uncertain QB situation (Milwaukee Journel Sentinel). So with little to no market, Taylor wasn't going anywhere. We needed to be compensated and he had the ability to block a trade by refusing to commit to more than one year. That meant that Taylor either stayed in Miami or retired, so that left the team and the player in an awkward position (as most trade demands usually do), was the FO supposed to keep ignoring the player or should they have downplayed the rift? Should the player have continued to be a distraction or should he suck it up and downplay the rift? It's called damage control, both sides has a keen interest in it and both sides did just that. Again, look at the timeline and it's clear. I never once claimed that. Parcells has a book where he talks about what he likes in his players, he has alot of sound bites, articles, comments, interviews, etc describing what he likes in his players. He likes hard workers, he likes player who put team first, he likes players who have football at the top of their list of priorities.....explain to me how Jason's stint on Dancing with the Stars and his informing the team that he wouldn't attend any offseason practices, workouts or camps fits what Parcells likes in a player. Keep in mind that Sparano said clearly that he was informed that Taylor wasn't going to participate in those activites, that's key. To an extent. They can prepare players before they go out on the field, but once the players are out there it is out of the coaches hands. A torn hamstring due to lack of pregame prep can be blame on the coaching and training staff, but a twisted knee, broken leg or concussion are completely out of the coaching staff's hands. And here is Sparano's presser.....again. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3406638 Again, timeline is a crucial part of these series of events. What Taylor said in June doesn't negate what he said previous to that, instead it supports the fact that both sides tried to downplay the rift. Why else would Taylor say he wasn't showing up to training camp, which was well after his DWTS stint was over? (sigh) I think the fact that Miami had offers of a 2nd rounder on the table at draft time, only to drop their demands and take the 2nd rounder the following year because teams filled their pass rushing need, along with the fact that the deal between Miami and Washington was completed in just a couple of hours (a rarity in sports) is plenty of proof that Miami took what they could get when the opportunity to trade Taylor arose again (Daniels injury). Had they had other offers on the table like they did at draft time they would have taken them. The only team to show any serious interest in Taylor after the beginning of June was the Packers and Jason didn't want to be a part of a team with an uncertain QB situation. http://gridironfans.com/forums/late...on-taylor-not-interested-joining-packers.html http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/31936149.html http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=765551 (registration required) If Miami had the same offers on the table that they did at the draft, they would have pulled the trigger. But it took an injury and just a few short hours for them to make the deal with Washington, why is that? Taylor certainly had leverage in any trade, no team in their right mind is going to trade away a bounty for a player who repeatedly said that he only wanted to play one more year. Teams wanted commitment and Taylor wasn't giving it to them. It was pure luck that Washington had a need when they did, otherwise Taylor would have been here last season. Again, timeline is important. If you want to continue this conversation, that's great, but I could without the condecension. On the one hand you "beg" me to show you proof that it looked as though Taylor was going to be in Miami, and then your very next point is that he was going to be there. Which one is it? Either you disagree with me and need proof or you agree with me and it loked as though he was going to be in Miami. It seems as though this is a run-around with no end in sight. Once again I refer you to the presser and the timeline. Timeline is critical Look again at the presser and remember the timeline... I refer you to the timeline and Jason's own words prior to Parcells statement Reread the presser Seriously, how do you reconcile Sparano's comments with Jason's comments? You've asked me to explain myself and I think it's only fair for you to do the same. Was Sparano lying in that presser? He clearly said that he was informed that Taylor was not attending training camp, is he a liar? When first hired Parcells said that the only way Jason wasn't going to be a Miami Dolphin in '08 was if he retired, then he was traded away. Does that make Parcells a liar or did the situation change? Timeline and Jason's own words I have, you choose to ignore it. You'll take one statement that was made at the end of Jason's stint in Miami and try to use it to discredit earlier statements from the very same person when the situation was different and there were more options on the table. Please explain how Sparano can say that Taylor was not going to attend training camp and Jason's own words that he didn't have to be there because we weren't reinventing the wheel and then later statements that he would show up, does that make Sparano a liar or did the situation change? Who said what and when leads you to the "why", timeline is critical and can't be dismissed. And this is where I end the conversation with you, if you want to continue in a civil manner, let me know and I'll be happy to resume. We're running around in circles anyway as I've repeated myself several times and posted the same info time and time again. But this is the 2nd time in this post where you take a less than civil tone and I have no interest in going any further with you.
Agree to disagree bro. I didn't mean to be condescending so I'll take it back. I will just bring up these final points. 1 - Trading a player doesn't necessarily mean the FO thought that that player was being detrimental to the team or that he is not a Parcells type of player according to his book. Taylor is old and had a high cap number. Isn't it a possibility that Parcells is deeply disappointed in Taylor (11 year vet) missing minicamp but doesn't think it is a significant detriment to the team? 2 - If you think that Parcells only spoke out after the draft to downplay rift because he couldn't get a trade then that is speculation. 3 - The links you provided are media speculations 4 - I know what Sparano said in the press conference. Obviously there is a large discrepancy between that and what Taylor had been saying continuously and based on his final action as a Dolphin. Things that can explain that are: -Taylor did in fact tell Sparano that he was not intending to attend training camp. -Sparano misunderstood Taylor or his agent. -Dolphins office misunderstood Taylor and communicated poorly to Sparano. -Agent was lying to push a trade. -Sparano got the information from the media. There are a multitude of possible reasons why and that is why I can't judge Taylor since he has since spoken and acted contrary to Sparano's words. In the youtube link in my previous post Taylor was asked that "They said you won't be at training camp. Is that...?" and then Taylor asked "who said that?". I'm willing to lean to a misunderstanding on someones part regarding that Sparano press conference. The truth is, no one knows and hence we cannot judge based on incomplete information.
No worries brother. When two people are debating their POV that they believe in so wholeheartedly, it's easy for emotions to leak into the posts. It happens, agree to disagree and no hard feelings.
