Don't be so hard on Beck. He actually didn't fumble every snap.. Imagine Beck as QB this year though? We would have went from +17 turnover ratio to a -20 one
Asking me to believe in Beck is about as likely as me suddenly believing that the Tooth Fairy exists... Until I see it with my own eyes I won't believe it.. {Nothing personal against Beck the person who I like very much and admire for his work in the community and work ethic in general}
You would rather just cut John Beck when you can get value for him. It would be 2 veterans and you would just want 2 qb's? When you can get a veteran qb for a low cost most likely
say what you want but the truth is John had enough upside to be kept in the middle of wholesale roster change. Anyone who doesn't consider that ball security issues would have got him cut suggests that at least "that" part of his game has tightened up. To make judgements on his six games without considering the Cameron factor is missing much. This staff does not keep losers on the roster.. if this was still the "other" regime, there would be plenty of room for being skeptical of their ability to judge talent, but IMO, not this one. His continued prescence says volumes IMO.
John Beck is also not a young ab he was 26 when we drafted him he is coming up on 28 and he is a 3rd string qb. The odds are agianst this guy.
I do not see the point of two veterans if this regime feels comfortable with Henne as a back up. Fine trade beck and just not fill the roll. Why spend the extra salary cap on a vet who will mostly likely never play?
Marty, I want you and everyone else in here to be honest with themselves.. If we were offered the same exact pick for Beck that we got for McCown, do you think we are even having this discussion? McCown was the odd man out because we couldn't get any value for Beck. I honestly think there were no takers..... And I'd be pretty certain that if Chad Pennington got injured last season that they would have been working the phones real hard to pick up another QB as insurance against another Beck fiasco.
no.. YOU are against this guy not our staff, THEY kept him. Dupree.. we need a qb to run the scout squad.. in TC, we probably should have at least four.
Wew would need another veteran because say Chad Pennington goes down now we are left with Chad Henne he goes down. What do we do Call Brandon Fields over or Dan Carpender over and say heres the ball try your best.
Which can happen in any given season.. I remember when Marino went down, then Mitchell went down for a game.. Luckily we had Deberg who came in and played admirably. Like Padre said, you need a game manager that will limit turnovers and keep us in games.. And based on what we have seen so far from Beck, he has trouble managing a simple snap. I wouldn't want to rest our season on the small chance that he may be called upon.
Exactly, the way I'm approaching this is j Beck has gotten that year on the Bench he was supposed to have last season behind T Green, and from what we have heard, Penny was making BOTH Henne and BEck do more then hold a clipboard and lower their golf handicaps. Chad Henne is clearly the "Heir apparent", however, if one follows the NFL for very long, one learns that the "heir" can sometimes fall flat on their faces. Upside is, Beck is Pennington with a stronger arm, and more mobility, and he soaked up what Penny taught like a sponge and earns his roster spot. Downside is, Same ol' J Beck, fumblitis, and scared rabbit, taking a roster spot from a Qb who "maybe" can play in Henning's System better then he can. I mean come on, Tim Rattay was a "okay" Qb, no upside, clipboard holder. Develop Beck, we have upside and better trade bait.
The choice was between Josh McCown and John Beck. I want John Beck to do good he is a great guy. But here are the facts. He is 28 He is 3rd string He throws the check down pass every time he can get the ball in his hands I remember in trianing camp when he would throw the long ball in would be an int He fumbles the ball a lot. His confidence is down. I want this guy to do good but I am just saying the odds are agianst him.
Do most NFL teams keep a QB on their practice squad? I can see this scenario working out well assuming we have a worst case scenario player developing if it gets to Beck and we see a repeat of "Same ol' J Beck"
4 of the 5 of your complaints are old news.. you haven't a dang bit of evidence that those issues still exist, "I" suggest that he would be gone if they weren't corrected. And Ronnie.. our oline still sucked when John was getting reps, and he was still scared from Cams idiocy.. keeping him at least through the preseason so we can see what we have.. good backup, or maybe a more valuable trade. We get no value until he shows up, and IMO, he'll get that chance in exhibition.
Or it could go from limited value (6th round pick) to no value and we cut him. I'll take a 6th round pick right now for him. Last year we tried to showcase him early on and he failed to impress. He didn't even get a chance to compete for the backup job after the first pre-season game and when he finally got some playing time he fumbled a few snaps.... So keeping him through the preseason may not be a good choice if he is still suffering from the same issues... Take what you can get now....
I will agree to dia agree on this one bro. I got a paper due on thrusday and I have not even started.
My confidence comes from the fact that he is still here, and worked very hard to improve his craft. I will roll with our staff on this one, and their confidence gives ME confidence. We have a lot of holes to fill, and QB is not one of them right now. Creating a need that doesn't exist is IMO, counterproductive.
And you are operating under old information Bumrush, we have -0- idea what progress, if any, Beck has made in practices and in meetings. We all recall the typical John Beck, snap...assume he didn't fumble...line leaked like a sieve...and no one to throw to anyway... That is no way to even form an opinion, let alone make a decision on a player, a couple of great examples of jumping the gun would be David Martin and Matt Roth, both rightly could have been thrown overboard at the beginning of last Training Camp, instead Sparano developed two gems for us. Why is it impossible to think the same expectations can not be placed on John Beck as well?
I hope you are right... My stance isn't about creating a need. It's about creating an extra draft pick for a player that probably won't pan out here... We paid a high price for Beck, but with this regime a 6th round pick can turn out to be a diamond in the rough...
If we go with what you're proposing we would go into next year with Penny, a guy who has never started an NFL game and a guy like Harrington who has started many NFL games and hasn't proved that he is any better than a #3 QB. I'll take potential over spare parts any day. Gholston has the ability to be a very good player, he was held back by Mangini who wouldn't play him and let him learn on the job. Converting from a 4/3 DE to a 3/4 OLB takes time, Gholston is far from a wasted pick as you imply. You said yourself that alot of our players didn't look good out there last year, so why do they get a pass? Had we followed that knee jerk reaction to their play as some wanted us to do with Beck, Porter never would have had 17 and a half sacks, Ted Ginn never would have gotten the playing time and improved from last year, etc. Last year was a horrible year for so many of our players, but many were given a second chance to prove themselves, why not one of our young QB's? Take a look at the situation that he was put in last year, his starting RB was gone due to injury, our best WR was traded away and the others were either overmatched or unmotivated. I remember ck saying that he saw Marty Booker routinely run his route right to the bench without a concern for what was happening on the field, how is a young QB supposed to succeed with that type of surrounding cast? The OL, which was poor to begin with, was decimated by injuries, the deck was stacked against any QB at that point. Coming into this year Penny was going to be the QB regardless with how well Beck or Henne did. Aside from one reporters preseason long campaign to get Beck kicked off the team, the stories were kind of similar regarding Beck and Henne. Neither one played extremely well and neither one played horribly, they played like young players trying to learn a new system in the NFL. Why give up on that? And had Beck played well I'm sure we would hear a few "Preseason stats don't matter" comments from his detractors. I'm happy just to have 2 guys who have potential, until they show me that they don't belong, I'm going to support them. It may not be a line that you want to hear, but that doesn't change the fact that it's true. You may not value the opinions of guys like Martz, Cameron or Wolf when it comes to evaluating young players, but their peers do. This FO had every chance to write off Beck if they wanted to, I remember many people declaring with 100% certainty that Beck was a goner and McCown was going to be our #3, but our FO saw enough in Beck to keep him around and toss the NFL vet (that RonnieBrownTown says that we need) to the side. That speaks louder than anything I can type here. Alot of things can be assumed this year as well, we could assume that Donald Thomas is too fragile to handle the NFL. We could assume the same thing about Greg Camarillo and Justin Smiley. We could assume that Chad Pennington will never win the big game and that Chad Henne isn't good enough to beat him out for the starting job. Alot of assumptions could be made if one chooses to look at a situation without taking everything into account, but that doesn't make them accurate. To think that we saw the real John Beck last year is silly IMO, I pointed out above how badly our offense was neutered and no QB is going to shine under such circumstances. That doesn't mean that I believe John Beck is going to be a superstar, it means that I believe John Beck has more talent than he showed last year and we should be lucky to have 2 young talented QB's with potential backing up our starter.... ...or we could toss away players after a bad year, which would have meant Porter would have gotten his 17.5 sacks elsewhere. Point being, we have talented players, Beck and Henne represent our #2 and #3 QB's, with so many other needs on this team, why create another one because of impatience? This is a non-issue IMO and the FO will make whatever moves they feel need to be made, just like they did last year.
Read my follow up to CNC. The odds are against him making a significant contribution on this team. Donald Lee was going to get see playing time even as a backup. John Beck may never see a regular season snap. If we can get something in return, like a backup tackle, or a special teams monster, what do we have to lose?
The confidence issue is what caused the problems you identify above it. We haven't seen practices since the end of TC, but do you think that Sparano/Parcells/Ireland would have kept a turnover machine at 3rd QB throughout the entire season with all the QBs being cut/moved to practise squad etc.? Without being privy to closed door practices I can't say whether Beck has rectified the problems he was having. What I can say is that the current regime is ruthless enough to cut him without losing 1 minute of sleep if they thought they could upgrade on him.
Me too.. it's all just speculation anyway, none of us know the real scoop. I think Padre said it best so far, it is a very good post. edit; Mike, didn't see your post until mine went up, great post.. you haven't lost a thing during the season.
I know I have seen none of these things but have you seen him improve have you seen him not fumble the ball. That is why I said I agree to disagree.
Bumrush, the odds are against ANY 3rd string Qb making a contribution to this team, let alone John Beck, but I do think your theory misses the mark, Beck knows the system, and you may not recall the 49ers when they were rolling well, but here was their Qb Depth Chart Joe Montana, Steve Young, Steve Bono. Bono was the third stringer and led the 49ers to the playoffs, the point being, a Qb, with potential, who knows the offensive system is an asset not to be cast away lighlty. Tuna and Sparano and Ireland kept Beck over McCown for a reason...even though McCown was "experienced"..you cannot have to many good options at Qb BR...evar...
But we are also conveniently leaving out the part that McCown was traded for a draft pick... Not cut.. I'm not sure if that is something that should be overlooked.
One thing to note Padre. Bono was selected in the 6th round. Grbac was drafted in the 8th round... Beck was drafted on the first day, as a high draft pick with the clear intention to be a starting QB, or a 2nd stringer at WORST. Like I said, if we can get some value in return, even though that scenario is doubtful, what do we have to lose? It's not like we can't pick a QB off waivers, a PS, or as a FA that can come in a fill the role.
And McCown rode the pine in Carolina, he just isn't that good a Qb BR, Beck still could be, Bono was 33 or so before he became a full time starter in the NFL. The 49ers also got more then a 6th round pick out of him.
All true, but keep in mind, when considering "value" for a back up Qb, no one, and I do mean no one, trades a back up who still has potential for a 6th round pick, the 49ers proved that with Bono and Grbac. Heck, we gave up a #2 pick for AJ Feeley, a career back up, "value" and "6th round pick" do not belong in the same sentence when discussing Qb's who have potential and manage to stick around the NFL long enough to learn how to play the game.
It's simply an argument that no longer means anything. What anybody thought of him before the draft means zilch now. What he's done since then is all that matters. I GUARANTEE Parcells, Ireland, Sparano and co. have zero concern what Martz or anybody else had to think back then. They only care about what they see now. Which brings us to your next point. Could also mean they thought McCown would be too expensive to keep as a 3rd string QB. And it also probably has something to do with there being more of a market for McCown than Beck at the time. I didn't see many people suggest we get rid of Porter or Beck after their first year. I certainly never suggested we get rid of Beck after his first year. Draft or sign competition, certainly, but not get rid of. But now would be a good time to remind you he's had 2 full seasons in the NFL, not 1. He did horrible his first season, and in his second couldn't outperform a rookie or a journeyman QB and showed many of the same problems with ball security that he did the prior year. But I do agree with you and cnc66 to a certain extent. The front office knows more about Beck than any of us combined and they will make the right decision regarding his future in Miami.
Sorry for the consecutive post but I'd like to point out that I bet this has to be the fastest that any thread about a 3rd string QB has ever grown on any fan site ever.
With another key thing you are ignoring. AJ Feeley played well when given the chance as backup. Which is more than John Beck can currently say.
We need some Mercury Morrisism's about all this: "When someone is approaching your roster spot, they are driving down the freeway and getting on the off ramp to come into your neighborhood, they ain't there yet, but you know they are thinking about showing up and ruining your supper.."
cmon, are you deliberately ignoring the differences in the teams around them when they played? There is no fair comparison between the two unless that's factored in..
