I agree that Ginn has to be returning kicks and punts. Lets play to our strengths and this is one Ginn's strengths. He ran three back for TDs in the preseason. Two of those were called back because of penalties which in fact had nothing to do with springing him on those plays. Obviously what we're doing isn't working. I would love to hear an explanation from the staff as to why they're are not using him. As for the Chambers issue, I really like him and would love to still have him on the team because he could really help us now. The thing to consider is and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the pick we got from the Chambers deal is the pick we used to select Henne. If Henne turns out to be the long term answer at QB that we all hope he does then it was a great trade because finding a franchise QB is more important than a WR. Only time will tell on this one. I would love to have him now though. He could really help us now. JMO.
A-freekin-men....We all have seen Ginn on returns and he is better than Bess, but somehow Sparano has unnatural feelings, bordering on sexual perhaps towards Bess as a returner...
No, no he's not. Sorry, but we have hashed and re-hashed this. Ginn is NOT any better than Bess. I have already posted the numbers...and re-posted...and re-posted.
Miami is trying to turn Ted Ginn Jr into something he is not and that's a wide receiver. We need to face the music and realize he is a Cam Cameron reject. Ted Ginn has done nothing to help Miami in any game this year the thing he has done best is keep his uniform clean, I bet he hasn't needed it to be washed once this year. I watched this game against the Texans pretty well and decided to keep an eye on Ginn and what did I see ? The Texans played him right up on the line of scrimmage, this means they had no respect for his speed and route running. On one play they throw a quick pass out to Ginn, instead of heading north or south he ran along the line of scrimmage then behind the line and was tackled for a loss. Miami needs to use him in a way that best fits Ginn, put him back on kick off and punt returns, then maybe he could do something positive for our team.
One thing those numbers dont tell you is how the Punter is kicking the ball to the return man. For example, last year on several occasions the opposing Punter kicked the ball near the sideline or out of bounds completely in an attempt to keep it away from Ginn. (This presumably gives us better field position) Not only has this not happened with Bess, but I cant imagine it ever will. Only one of those two men has a chance to take it the distance on any given occasion.
Why did Bess replace Ginn in special teams anyway? Ginn was just starting to break out last year with multiple returns for TD's (many which were called back because of stupid penalties).
He is much better. You're not using Ginn's numbers this year where coach hasn't given him any reps, hardly any snaps, and only uses him in desperate or sparing situations because he knows ginn is better, are you? Bess on kick returns has a long of 32. That's a LONG of 32. On punt returns he has a long of ... 25. Yes 25. Ginn in 2007 had a long of 52, 2 runs over 40, 39 out of 63 of longer than 20 yard runs, for kickoffs. Punts? TDs, is all I have to say. Bess is in no way shape or form better than Ginn.
How many games have you watched this year? You're simply posting numbers and saying that film does not matter. How can we take this seriously? I'm willing to guess you've watched less than half our games unless you're watch them through streams and even then, you get terrible video quality and usually average audio quality...
Well, lets put it this way, how has Ginn looked on his punt returns this year? Bess has looked 100X's better. And Bess is a much better route runner than Ginn right now. (this does not mean Ginn can't be as good, but has not shown it yet). They are two different Wr's, Bess is more like a Welker. And I have watched every second of every game, more than once. I know that question was to Ken about watching, but I figured I would put my disclaimer in for you.
You mean fins games, right? Not trying to back Ted w/this comment, but I would hope Bess is a better route runner considering the University he played at (and with his lack of elite physical skills he needs to be great in the areas he has control over in order to be/stay in the NFL; hands, body control, route running, field awareness).
I don't care too much about the numbers, at least the 'average' return ydg, but Ginn can break it all the way...Bess cannot. He goes down at the very hint of a coverage guy near him...Bess does the same thing on passes...if the first guy misses him, he gets some yardage, otherwise he hits the ground... Don't get me wrong...Ginn may not be Hester or Hall in his prime, but anyone has to be better than Bess... At least on KOs...punt returns, perhaps Bess is a little more shifty than Ginn. But in general, our return teams stink, so changing some things may work...
How good can he be if they don't give him any reps, and expect him to do it cold? You can't deny this fact. Punt returns are tricky. You have to practice each year. The fact they don't give him reps yet put him in there show they know he's probably better than Bess. Still idiotic of course, but why do that with a lesser returner? Bess is a better route runner maybe, but he's limited in what he can do. Bess is perfect for Penningtons passing game yet he hasn't produced as much as Ginn himself. He has a ceiling for what he can do both returning and receiving. He's a super great value, don't get me wrong, but he isn't better by any stretch of the imagination.
I keep denying that fact, but you don't seem to want to buy it, and that's okay. But I'll say it again, if you think the staff does not give Ginn reps during practice, its my opinion your very, very wrong.
I thought this website as a whole got over the whole questioning the fanhood of a member BS? I'm pretty sure if you're posting on a fan website of an organization that's sucked for the better part of the past decade, you're following the team pretty diligently.
Ok, you may be right, Do we have any accounts? I know reporters are not allowed to blog, but are they allowed to watch? You said your opinion, not fact Has Bess even sniffed a good return yet? I don't care if he averages 3-4 yards per return more than Ginn. If he can't break one, screw that. Even welker showed more speed on returns. Bess is like Molasses man, very slow.
Here we go again, identifying Pennington's lack of arm strength as the reason why Ginn hasn't produced. What a joke... Also, what exactly has Ginn done?
I have seen Ginn score four touchdowns on returns.. I have never seen Bess make it past the 35.. ever. There has never even been a sniff at a big return. You are ignoring the touchdowns in your argument and maybe that's fair because Bess hasn't been doing it as long as Ginn. But if you tell me that you think Bess has even an equal likelyhood of scoring as Ginn, I will be convinced your are nutz. No way Bess has four in 12 months... he is servicable at a low level, and is nowhere near a serious td threat.
Right, my opinion, but you keep stating the fact that Ginn goes in cold with no Reps? That's an opinion also. And Welker has 1 TD return in 6 years and an averge of 22.8 on KR and 9.7 on PR Wes Welker: Career Stats For info, Bess is averaging 13.5 on PR and 22.2 on KR
It was reported that he wasn't given too many reps in the offseason. And that was when he was #1 on the depth chart. he is no longer #1 on the depth chart. Just a guess from what we've seen. And I'm not talking about averages. I'm talking big play abilities. Bess hasn't shown any yet.
Well, you mentioned Welker, 6 years and one TD return. Bess in his 5 games of PR returns has shown to be a better returner by average, that's all we can go on right now. And about the same on KR. Ginn in two years has one TD return. And what week was that in? Why does Bess only get 5 games to prove himself?
four.. OOPS... forgot to mention the "other" ones eh... why am I not surprised. I'm sure you will remind me that penalties took two away and one was preseason.. and that by your count that will equal one, but the fact remains he scored and did not need the penalties to do it.
And who is to say he didn't break it because of the penalties. The fact is he has 1 Marty. Bess has been doing fine, and is the least of the reasons we lost 3 games. If the staff feels Bess is better, than it is what it is. Its the same thing with Jason Allen. I was all for Ginn doing returns, until I saw him try the 4 returns this year, he looked lost. Maybe he looks lost in practice too? My whole thing is, the staff does not hand players a start, they earn it, and it seems to me he has not done so. If he earns it in the staffs eyes, than so be it, I hope he returns 20 for tds.
It's not about TDs, it's also breaking long ones that don't end up in TDs. I'll give up a 3 yards per if you can give me the long ones. That's all. Reason Bess is only given 5 games is because he shouldn't have been given those 5 games! I would trade those 3 yards per return for the rest of the year for the ability to break one. Sometimes trying to break one means going sideways and you give up 3 yards, big deal!
well no matter how we stand on the other stuff, you are correct in this.. bummed me a LOT, but I saw it too. Given his history all he needs is reps to fix that.. I think they fear a mishandle and we lose the ball. Ball droppers have short leashes with Tony I keep thinking that is the issue.. but, I have faith that the kid is every bit as special as we hoped. We will see it here.. or there, but we will see it.
If you can go watch those games, you will see that those penalties had in fact nothing to do with springing him on those plays.
And it would take 11 penalties to spring Bess for a super long run, including an illegal block on the kicker!
I agree with everything here except the end. I do think Ted Ginn is the answer and IMO he is the biggest headscratcher going right now. The guy is a great scoring threat and we are foolish not having him back on returns.
I don't think that's true of Pennington particularly. I mean, every NFL team throws lots of 5-7 yard passes, whether they say they are running a WCO or not. It's funny to watch Favre, of course he has a cannon for an arm, but he still throws short most of the time. I think Pennington throws fewer of the 5-7 passes than many. I went to the nfl.com website to crunch some numbers. I looked at percentage of passes completed that are over 20 yards and average yards per completion (I had to figure these out myself, unless there was a button I missed). I didn't look at everyone, but it appears that Pennington is about average in yards per completion and percentage of passes for over 20 yards. Rivers: 14.6 per completion, 31% completions 20+. That's terrifying. How come we could handle him but not Matt Schaub? Brees: 12.5 pc, 22% 20+ Pennington: 11.7 pc, 16% 20+ Warner: 11.5 pc, 13% 20+ He must have gotten them all against us. Farve: 10.0, 15% 20+. Favre is also hitting 71.3% of his passes, compared to 68.6% for Pennington. So there you have it: The #1 Dink-and-Dunker in the NFL so far this year is Brett Favre. Now of course Pennington's long pass stats include the screen Cobbs took 80 yards, but that kind of stuff evens out. So I don't believe Pennington is living off 5-7 yard throws -- certainly no more than anyone else, except Rivers. And a Penny partisan could argue that his average would be even higher if he had better WRs to throw to. NFL Stats: by Player Category
But those guys are more versatile. All of those guys, even Brees, can burn you deep. 30-40+ yards. Pennington cannot. Nobody is saying Pennington is a bad QB. He's just limited. 20 yards is cool and all but that's not really deep. I'm looking at 40 yards or more. Has pennington completed on for that far without YAC? I saw Rivers hit one against us, then almost another but was overthrown, saw him hit a few against NE. And the texans got us for a couple of those as well.
First, I can't believe this thread is still going Second, go back and look at the numbers I REPEATEDLY posted in here. Ginn's numbers are 22.7 yards per return Bess's are 22.2 yards per return. Sorry if you were thinking there was a larger disparity than that, but that is EXACTLY what it is.
The NFL.com page I linked above has a separate entry for 40+ yard passes, though they don't exclude YAC. If anybody tracked passes where the ball travels 40 yards in the air past the line of scrimmage, it would probably be someone like Football Outsiders. It would also be really tiny numbers, it looks like. Looking at passes 40+ (including YAC), Pennington has just two, out of his 94 completions. We know what those are: the two TD passes to Cobbs, one of which went 30+ yards past the line of scrimmage, and the other which didn't even reach the line of scrimmage. Passes that go for gains over 40 yards are surprisingly rare, though. Brees and Rivers both have nine, tops in the league. (Rivers had a 42-yarder against us, as you noted. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=5529) Aaron Rogers and Tony Romo each have seven. McNabb has five. Favre and Warner each have four (again, it feels like Warner got all his against us). Eli Manning has one! Schaub has only two pass plays over 40 yards for the year, and his long is the 61-yarder to Johnson against us; that pass went about 15 yards past the line of scrimmage in the air. (It's in the highlights here: NFL Video Galleries) Others: Jay Cutler has three, Eli Manning three, Jason Campbell two. Two-three seems to be where most starting QBs are at this point in the season. Joe Flacco, happily, has just one. OK, you got me hooked. I looked at Pennington in prior years. He had three last year, which isn't great, but he had less than half a year's worth of throws. The year before, when he got the comeback award, he had nine, which was good enough for sixth place in the NFL, behind Brees (18), Carson Palmer (15), McNabb (14), Marc Bulger (10) and (of all people) JP Losman (10). Judging from the way other QB's numbers bounce around, how many passes over 40 yards you complete seems to depend on lot on luck. Can't get over how rare pass plays over 40 yards are! In 2005, Peyton Manning was the top rated QB in all of football. Passes over 40 yards: six. Last year, just four guys were in double figures: Favre (16), Brady (15), Romo (11) and McNabb (10). Also, I've posted this elsewhere, but it belongs here too: a comparison of Favre and Pennington for the last four years on pass attempts that go more that 20 yards in the air past the line of scrimmage. http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afceast/0-2-47/Chad-better-than-Brett-on-long-balls.html Pennington is more successful, but what's striking is how rare those kinds of attempts are. Pennington averaged just 2.7 per game, which fit in with his noodle-arm image. But Favre averaged just 4.5 per game. Interestingly, Pennington averaged 34.1 yards per completion, while Favre averaged 46.3. But Pennington averaged more per attempt because his completion percentage was higher. He had a higher rating for several reasons, but the biggest was that he threw just 4 interceptions (3.7% of attempts) and Favre threw 35 (12.1% of attempts). On this topic, maybe some of you who have played or coached can help: I thought that for NFL-level throwers, the real acid test isn't the long bomb, since you can loft it. The real killer is a 15-yard out, since you've got to throw that as flat and hard as you can. That's what the Fiedlers and Penningtons of the world aren't supposed to be able to throw. Am I right?
