Just throwing Ginn out there at a whim is never a smart idea to begin with. Maybe it is lack of reps in practice... Maybe we don't know, but neither do you. I hate how people are assuming he is or isn't get reps in practice, everyone is doing it... Both sides of the argument are and if anyone says it's not true, then they're off their rocker... These guys are "paid" to play football. They should "know" what they're doing. Alright, fine... Put yourself in the workforce and you get put in a situation you're not use to... Let's see how you do.. I don't care what they say, if Ginn is getting reps in practice he probably isn't getting many, if any. I really don't know the situation, but practice is different than gametime. Practice doesn't have all the cameras, all the people, all the noise. How the hell is a player suppose to overcome that when he's just thrown in and never given a chance. Hell if we decided who was good and who was bad from first impressions, only Dan Marino and Ben Roethlisberger would be Hall of Fame worthy quarterbacks...
What part of my post didnt you read? Here, I BOLDED it for you. Sorry folks, the guy is NOT the Pro-Bowl Punt Returner you all want him to be.
I have no problem with Ginn on Kick-off returns. Only place he has any impact IMO oh and BTW Bess has 14 returns for 311 yards and an average of 22.2 Last year Ginn had 63 returns for 1422 yards and an average of 22.7 yards. The fact that our Defense was so bad, Ginn had AMPLE opportunity to run quite a few back /endthread
How can you compare numbers like that? No offense, but if you wanna look at them as JUST numbers, go right ahead. How the hell is he suppose to do jack crap when they put him in and then take him right out? Make a play when called upon? How many punt returns are taken back for big gains per game? Not as many as some of you think... If you wanna compare the two, compare them on film. There sure as hell isn't enough data to compare them statistically this year yet...
And he did... if our special teams unit would not have stupid penalties then we wouldn't have this issue.
Put him in and then just take him out? This year is no different than last year for Ginn. He has an average of just over 6 yards per return. PERIOD. Bess to date is better than double that. If you say Bess isnt that great of a returner, fine, I am just pointing out the VERY real stats. WTF is film gonna show? Ginn letting the ball bounce and then running out of bounds?
From the Imortal Dandy Don Merrideth "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas”
The Devin Hester comparison is laughable. Here are the differences. Ginn hasn't produced anywhere near the amount that Hester has on this level. Chicago didn't use a top 10 pick to acquire Hester. Lastly (and here's the icing on the cake), from the looks of things lately (the past 3 weeks or so), Hester seems to be the better WR. People need to stop making excuses for the guy. He's not an elite anything, except maybe an elite bust. Blaming Pennington's lack of arm strength for his shortcomings as a WR is a joke (we drafted this guy in the top 10 when even his most ardent supporters now believe he can run exactly ONE route, the fly). And in terms of his return abilities, I think azfinfanmang's numbers speak for themselves.
I don't think so. Last year, Ginn wasn't getting nearly the blocking that Bess is getting this year. As to the stats this year, whatever. I'm fine with leaving Bess on punt returns. I just want to see Ginn on kick returns every time.
WTF is film gonna show? A hell lot more than stats. If stats really mattered, coaches would be studying stats and not film. And an average of over 6 yards per return on 4 returns? Have you ever taken a math class or a physics class? 4 returns isn't enough data to draw a good conclusion.
Sorry, but you need to have patience. If you think a wide receiver fully develops within a year and five games, I'm glad you aren't coaching the Dolphins... People need to stop putting unrealistic expectations on Ginn. They want him to burst on the scene suddenly when they should just expect him to show improvements. He really hasn't had the chance to do so because he isn't getting the ball. Don't tell me "he isn't getting separation" because you don't know. I'm a film major and I can tell you that you aren't seeing the best angle to how Ted Ginn Jr is doing on his routes because CBS and FOX doesn't give a damn on what Ted Ginn Jr is doing on his routes. Hell you probably can't even see him after a second anyways... They care about where the action is, as they should. People draw conclusions quickly. They don't know what is going into play. Pennington throws a 5 yard slant to Camarillo and they say Ginn isn't open when he may have been running a 10 yard route. Who knows... All I know is while people like myself have been "making excuses", people like you have been "jumping to conclusions"
The guy is softer than a pillow. He avoids contact like the plague and there's clearly a reason why he's not getting the ball, and it doesn't have to do with Pennington, that's for sure.
And a boost in confidence through play time will make him tougher... Gotta learn to deal with these growing pains, bro... It's the first year in this rebuilding phase and Rome wasn't built in a day...
Actually, you are correct. I would be willing to bet out current coaching staff has studied more film than everybody on this site put together. In all fairness, take away Ginn's one run last year, and he is still at 6 yards per average. Even with that 87 yarder his average is well short of Bess. Bess only has a handful more than Ginn, and he is double the average, with the exact same unit around him. Keep spinning it though Keep making excuses for him, I think we will probably keep seeing less and less of him.
Wait wait a minute. It takes time to become a WR? He has had over a year. Bess is shining in much less time. If film is showing us this incredible seperation, I am SURE that Pennington has been made aware of it.. You do realize they study film Prior to, During and after every single game..right?
Bess has 8 receptions for 60 yards. That's not shining. He's been ok in punt returns, no better than Ginn was this time last year. And don't get started on kick returns. And not once, not ONCE! has he shown me anything to make me say, "oh shoot he's about to break one!" More like, run fool run there's a hole! Regarding pennington and recognizing if he's open, it doesn't matter if Pennington doesn't have confidence in his own arm to make those throws. Pennington's smart, he knows his limitations.
So are you telling us, in no uncertain terms that we used a top 10 pick on a guy who can run exactly one route? Please explain to me what your definition of a bust is? And you're telling us that we're jumping to conclusions. The guy has done nothing to warrant even being drafted, yet here we are watching guys like Desean Jackson and Eddie Royal produce in their rookie years, while we're waiting for a guy with a superhuman arm to finally start getting Ginn involved, because he can only run his fly route.
Bess came from a school where they pass it 85% of the time. Ginn was also a cornerback before he went to Ohio State.
Maybe, how the hell am I suppose to know? I can't tell time. I could be right, I could be wrong. And Jackson and Royal? Dude, seriously. Not every player would do the same on every team. You put Royal or Jackson on this squad and they might not even have a catch right now. Ginn can only run a fly route? Dude your thinking is completely irrational...
I guarantee that if you put Ginn in Jackson's situation he has comparable stats. Royal is much better than anyone likely imagined, and he came from a team in which WRs were not showcased. I won't sell Royal short, because I doubt most people knew he'd be that good. And let's not kid ourselves, aside from Bowe, not many WRs selected early from last year have done a lot. Gonzales has done the most and he got to come along with a HOF QB and as the 3rd wr. Meachem and Craig Davis haven't done much either. Ginn is not in a unique situation for a young WR (as far as development and onfield production go).
8 receptions for 60 yards? Where was Ginn at this time last year? As for Punt Returns, Bess has 2 more returns than Ginn this year, and his average is over twice as good? So, once again, the only route Ginn can run is...straight down the field? Yeah, that should be tough to recognize and defend.
Yes it takes time. "over a year"? So Henne should come in and in "over a year" he should be the next Joe Montana? Okay, sure. I know Ginn is a WR and Montana a QB. No position in football is easy to play. WRers and QBs have to develop their chemistry together. This year is a new QB for Ginn. You can't just put two guys together and expect them to hit the timing exactly. Route running gets stronger with age and so does his knowledge of finding holes in zone defenses and be able to push off his man at the LOS. NFL players are bigger, stronger and faster all across the board. Where Ginn could outrun say 9/10 guys in college in the NFL it might be something like 5/10 or 6/10. The extra knowledge (finding those holes in zone D or pushing off his man) do take more than a year and 5 games. Especially when you've got a new regime and QB. I know I know. I'm making excuses for him. The coaches are, too. If they didn't like him he would have been out. Or he will be traded before the deadline. Other than that it means they see something in him. Same for wilford. It might just be a trade in the offseason but they keep guys for a reason. You can only have 53.
Good, maybe we should try putting him at CB. Maybe just maybe we would find something he IS good at. You guys are killing me. I absolutely dont understand the justification for this kid not producing..... IF he was a Third round pick, then yeah I would be fine with him being a Project at reciever and a once in every 40 returns with a 6 yard per return average. Of course he would've probably already been cut, but that's an entirely different thread.
3 catches for 85 yards, and 2 runs for 4. On a team that averaged 40 yards less passing per game and 32 yards less rushing.
I'm trying to understand how people can defend Ginn. I've lost all hope regarding him, but that's because I cannot stand soft football players. Regardless of all his other flaws as a WR, it's his shying away from contact that really irks me. However, a real common arguement for Ginn that I've seen on these boards, and I'm not saying that it's coming from you, is that Ginn has failed to produce because Pennington's arm strength isn't condusive to Ginn's game. I find it to be a pretty ridiculous arguement, but I want to hear someone with this belief try to rationalize it for me.
Not his fault. And it isn't like Ginn is Troy Williamson. Ginn doesn't have the dropsies. You act like players in the top 10 (even rd 1) are never drafted if they are projects, yet it happens all the time.
Has nothing to do with Penny's arm IMO, but it definitely doesn't help that our offense doesn't suit his skills (ie the long ball; we rarely throw it). Just as Sparano said, Ginn can't produce if the ball doesn't come his way. And why would Penny chance a throw to Ginn when he can have a sure completion to a TE or RB. The likelyhood of completion decreases as you move past the LOS (unless your name is Drew Brees), why do you think Penny is having such a good completion percentage? it's not just because he is extremely accurate, it is because he is smart, and knows what he does well, as well as what the players around him do well.
Right, because you talk to them on a daily basis... I still fail to see how you think your opinion is fact. I'm not saying my opinion is fact, it's just my opinion. Let me guess, if I asked you guys if you're optimists or pessimists, you'd pull the bull**** "I'm a realist" card...
Well that, and NOBODY is gonna give us jack-squat in a trade. Unless he SERIOIUSLY starts to emerge, I think he is gone by this time next year.
I'm surely pessimistic about Ginn, because lets face it, he's given me NOTHING to be optimistic about. If Pennington can't get the ball down the field, then why isn't Ginn running more short stuff? Why is Camarillo consistently outplaying him? When do the excuses end?
And you base that on????? This is beyond rediculous. Bess comes in and is a better Punt returner, as good at Kick returns, a better WR and costs 1/4 as much. Yet, they are gonna hold onto Ginn cause he runs a 4.4 40? And to say that he would be blowing Desean Jackson away if in the same scenario? That is nothing but silly talk..just plain silly. Nothing and I mean NOTHING the kid has shown proves that theory at all. Jackson was THROWN into a situation as both starting receivers were out the first couple of games. Jackson is fearless on Punt Returns. Ginn shows neither...but man he looks good running straight down the field.
Did you miss the bomb to cobbs yesterday? He passed from our 40 and made it to their 20. NFL Video Galleries first play shown.
Thank you for futher proving our point. Seems as though Ginn supporters enjoy deflecting the blame of his shortcomings as a football player on Pennington's arm strength.
He runs closer to 4.2 than 4.4 And yes, that is exactly the reason you hold on to him. I am saying he gets until at least the end of next season because if someone makes it through the offseason and is continually on the active roster, they are typically not let go by the end of week 6. That is what I am basing it on. I completely see it as possible that he is not a dolphin in 2010, but if he is on the team in 2009, I think he will be a dolphin for all 2009. Prove to me exactly where in the **** I ever said that. Don't put ****ing words in my mouth. http://forums.thephins.com/395092-post62.html Go on. Where in that post does it say he'd have numbers that would blow Jackson away? I sad COMPARABLE. That doesn't even mean he'd have as good of numbers as Jackson, just that it would be close one way or another. Also, Jackson was thrown into a WC offense where the parts around him have been there for years, with an all-pro QB getting him the ball. Take off your blinders. I never said Ginn was even doing that well (I was arguing with everyone who is saying he is garbage). I was feverishly pissed when we drafted him, but I like to typically give people a chance until they show absolutely no chance of growth. And Ginn still has plenty of chance.
We didn't have Pennington last year. A change in QB is a big change for a WR. And for a QB. Thank you for proving my point that it requires time.
Ummm, ok? I don't know how you draw that conclusion. I am a Ginn supporter and even said Pennington's arm is not the issue.
First off Peter Stitches. Ease up man. You are correct, I completely mis-spoke, and I apologize. Second, Sorry but Ginn did show on very few occasions last year that he might have improvement in him. This year, to date, he has regressed at an alarming rate. I mentioned he better start lighting it up OR he is gone. DOnt think the current FO et el, will even waste a second IF he doesnt start showing potential. He will be GONE. They might try to trade him, but I dont see anybody giving up much for "Promise'. Running out of bounds and letting punts bounce are NOT going to get it. Not being able to run routes is DEFINATELY not going to get it.
