I remember some of us discussing Ginns qb/direct snap abilities a long time ago.. we all agreed it would be fun to explore. As you know, he ran out of the qb position at osu too.. red zone stuff into the line.. never get away with that inbetween the tackles runs in the nfl tho. He would be a scary end around guy too. Maybe we could overload the other direction so he could do the same roll out against the grain that Ronnie did.. he's a righty, roll right. Imagine if the wr got a good seal block.. and he opted to run, one miss and it's a home run for Ginn. Anyway, I guess this means I'm all for it!
I thought Ginn was a CB in high school? not a QB??? hey, we know he can run... if he can throw... im all for him being in that formation...
It would be nice to see Ginn put in position to make some plays for us. He certainly has the ability to give us some needed big plays. While I can see why Bess has replaced him on punt returns, I'm still scratching my head over why Ginn isn't returning kicks. He proved last year, even with terrible special teams, that he can take one to the house in a hurry.
Yeah you are correct. He WAS a CB in High School Ted Ginn, Jr. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia BTW: As much as I have headed the "Ginn aint worth the #9 overall pick" since it happened, I agree with Marty. I have been absolutely shocked that he hasnt gotten a couple of End-around plays.
I've been saying this for 2 weeks now. And I think it would be even more effective if Ginn replaced Penny so the defense would have to stay honest.
Yes he ran it quite a few times, was just another dynamic to Ginn that opposing defenses had to worry about. I think we could see Ginn in a big way on Sunday and that gets me pumped up! Just the thought of the R&R express with Ginn, Bess, and Fasno in the Single Phin formation is going to drive opposing defenders nuts! Can't wait till Foster gets in on the action.
they see no QB coming into the play, they are just gonna stack everyone in the box, thats whay penny stays in the game.
Teams aren't going to be caught off guard anymore, they are going to gameplan for it, so just because Penny is on the field that doesn't mean that opposing defenses are going to be as helpless as the Pats were. When Penny is out there he's pretty much a useless player, he isn't going to block on running plays and he isn't going to be a legitimate receiving option, unless of course you want to subject your fragile QB to an unnecessary pounding. Opposing teams will ignore him as he flops on the ground as some have suggested and they'll cheat towards the middle of the field. Teams know that Ronnie can throw the ball and there are so many options with that formation that I don't think it would be a problem. Having Ronnie and Ricky in the backfield and putting Ginn in motion would open up alot of possiblities for the other team to worry about. Does the ball go to Ricky up the middle? Does Ronnie get the snap and go right? Does Ginn get the snap and go left? Or we could have Penny just standing there or falling to the ground to avoid contact.
Actually, Penny did a hell of a job blocking on Ricky's run or else that is a much smaller gain. I agree that he's not much of a receiving threat as he's very slow off the line. You can see his reaction time to the snap is like 2 seconds and then he finally moves. Anyway, I just wanted to give CP some credit for his block because I'm a huge CP hater. I tolerate him because he's wearing the Dolphin logo now.
I'll give him credit for it, I missed it though. Guess I'll run to the tape to see the play. But putting your QB in position to get injured is a good way to jeopardize a season. Letting your QB tangle with defensive players who are stronger and who have been working their whole career on their strength and leverage is only asking for trouble. Penny isn't a physical player and he has a long history of injuries, asking him to do something that he isn't used to will catch up to us sooner or later and then Phin fans will be complaining that the coaching staff had no business putting him in such a horrible position. I see much more upside and possibility with a skill position player taking his place. Not only will it keep the defenses honest, but it will also throw another option out there that they haven't prepared for. That was the key in the NE game, the fact that we caught them by surprise was the main reason that play worked. We can't expect the same results if we aren't willing to mix it up a bit. Substituting Ginn for Brown (or Ricky) doesn't really do much to change the approach of the defense IMO, they will still focus on stopping the play like they've practiced. Replacing Penny with Ginn will catch them off guard and swing the advantage back to us. JMO though and I know this is an unpopular idea here, I caught hell for it before.
Nah, the element of surprise was the key. Teams aren't as foolish as we hope them to be, they've studied the tape, some of them used a variation of the play already and they'll be ready for us when we try it again.
i've been right there with ya, This wildcat formation has some options and we are the masters of it so lets keep trying to evolve it, i think getting your best players on the field is the objective, you literally can have your 4 best skill position players on the field at the same time with 7 blockers. {Ginn,Brown,williams,receiver}...{long, satele,smiley,carey,nudukwe,Martin,Fasano}......interesting.
If we are running the no huddle with R&R on the field and go from one formation to another just how are they going to know ahead of time to adjust?
There is another reason for Pennington being on the field. It's called "the green dot." Take a look at the rules for that and the ramifications for him being on the sideline and helmet off before we consign Pennington to the sideline.
Which could be solved by using the play once or going out there with a 2 or 3 play preset plan, or they could suffer and do what the old timers did.....use hand signals. If that's no good for you and you just have to have someone out there with a receiver in his helmet, with Penny on the sidelines, let one of the other players throw on a helmet with the receiver. But players did survive pretty well for decades without it.
While I agree in principle, I don't think that we are the masters of the play, we've only used it once and my gut tells me that it was wildly successful because we caught the Pats totally by surprise. That element of surprise is gone and now teams will be expecting it.
That is true Mike, but I think just having Chad on the sideline tips our hat to what's going on. Big part of what happened against the Pats is they were COMPLETELY "Pearl Harbored" by it. If Chad is on the sideline, especially for a handful of plays, that pretty much signals exactly what we are doing. What we got away with was Gimmicks. Nothing more. IF it was such a great offensive weapon, we would see much more of it in the NFL.
Right, but once Penny moves to the WR spot teams will know what's coming and they will adjust for it anyway, making Penny a useless player out there IMO. One thing that caught NE by surprise was Ronnie actually throwing the ball and doing it pretty darn well, so that has to be respected by the defense, they can't just stack the line. So there is still the possibility of passing plays with Penny on the sidelines. I'm not one of those people who thinks that this worked so well that we should be using it 20 times a game as our base offense, but if you mix it in well enough it can be effective. Adding another skill player in place of Penny will give us another weapon for the defense to focus on, and if it's Ginn they'll need to respect his speed and ability to spread the defense. It opens up so many possibilities, you can run it up the middle, reverse it, pitch it, pass it, etc. With Penny out there, defenses aren't going to stick a defensive player on him, the defense will just keep an eye on him, and if he does catch the ball he opens himself up to a nasty hit. Totally agree, that's why I think we need to switch it up a bit and add a new dimension to the play. I honestly think this should be run no more than 3-5 times a game, and even less if teams show they can stop it. If we have the same success with it as we did in NE, then by all means use it until they stop it, but I have a feeling teams will be well prepared for it.
Yeah, as usual we are pretty much on the same page I guess the idea of running hurry-up without Penny in there is what made me cringe. We are setting ourselves up for either: A: 3 and out B: Really really bad things happening.
Well that's where you need to be flexible. If you run it on first down and only gain 2 or 3 yards, then you bring Penny back in. If you go out there and get 5 or 6, then you can try it again and bring Penny out for 3rd down if need be. I'm not really calling for it to be used in a no huddle offense, use it once and see how it works, if you gain enough yards then you can try it again. Believe me, I have the same concerns. I'm just trying to think of ways to throw another curveball at the defense to keep that element of surprise.
I don't think the play would be as effective with CP out b/c the D will have time to sub. IMO a large part of the play's potential future success is that we can have much larger players stacked to one side. If there's no QB on the field then the D can sub in another DL and negate that advantage. It would leave them weaker against the pass but we'd also be weaker in our ability to pass. This is a run formation that gives the O a blocking advantage against a base or nickel D. It would not be an advantage against a goal line D. The pass is at a disadvantage and really only works if the D screws up by focusing too much on the run. I also don't see it as a gimmick. I see it as a situational formation. I think if we use Ginn (or Bess) in RW's spot then the D should have no tip off. We could have our base personnel against presumably a base D. We could switch into the formation at any time and the D (particularly a 3-4) will be out-weighed at the point of attack. It won't go for a TD every time but I think it increases the odds of good things happening for us.
I mean relative to anyone else in the NFL, we have ran it more then anyone else, we have been more sucessful then anyone else, we have a coach on our staff that used the offense as his M.O. I also believe that it was successful because of the element of surprise, but hearing dan henning talk you would think that this wildcat offense is just scratching the surface. were gonna get into trouble because i know that even though he threw a td pass that was beautiful...it was lucky, ronnie cant throw.NFL d backs will pick him off real quick, so we lose that dimension of the offense which kinda sucks, but we'll see, iam so interested.
what i meant is, they see no QB and they won't put any CBs in the play, with pennington in the game it makes the play seem like a normal I formation play and puts in CBs that are not very good at stopping the run as opposed to 1-2 extra linebackers.
nothing to do with the wildcat, but ginn needs to fight for those first downs, he went out of bounds on 3rd downs when he could've fought atleast to try and get the first down. that was a beautiful catch on that third down though
Chad is far from useless in the formation. As long as he is out there you also have to worry about a lateral pass and then a play down field. That is exactly what is going to happen if you don't have someone cover him and we catch on. Also we could use Ginn on a reverse if we want to get really creative. Ricky comes in motion takes the handoff and hands to Ginn. Alternatively you could have Ronnie fake to Ricky, fake a run outside and give Ginn the handoff. There are almost limitless things to do with the formation.
he doesn't have THAT weak of an arm,he isn't a 7 year old girl, if someone is wide open downfield he can throw it to them, he just can thread the ball on a needle over a defender
In the case of it happening 1) He can throw the ball 40+ yards, he just doesn't have a gun. He will most likely be looking at a wide open receiver too. 2) It would be somewhat like a bubble screen, but remember it has to be a backwards pass so he can throw it. There wouldnt be a problem as far as protection goes really.
The point being that Penny isn't a receiver and may be susceptible to dropping the ball leading to a fumble. Then he has to turn, locate his receiver and throw it downfield under pressure (remember he doesn't have an OL infront of him and defenders will be in the area). If the receiver isn't open, then what? If the safeties don't bite on the play Penny very well could be throwing into double coverage. Too many things have to go right for that to happen and that's why I think it's risky. I'd prefer to run the ball via direct snap, pitch or reverse.
His lack of arm strength and accuracy deep is still the same, that didn't all of a sudden change because he signed with us.
You can still motion him behind center and play it like a normal formation if they do something crazy like go with 9 in the box or something, or only play 3 DBs. He doesnt have to stay there. It just adds a dynamic that the defense has to worry about. Ronnie can throw it, but hes not a QB, cant make the reads or tight throws that a QB can. Taking the QB out of the play entirely will allow opposing Ds to load up in the box. Keeping a QB on the field keeps them honest in their substitution packages. Not to mention we dont need to do anything special when we run it. If the opponent sees a QB running off the field they know whats coming. If we huddle up like normal, they only have from when we break and Penny jogs off to a WR slot to get ready.
