The Lessons from the Detroit Lions

Or maybe the 164 injuries mattered for the Lions.

 

Only a very obtuse person would consider 31 points not good enough. Lol

 

You don't need "big physical gifts and tools" to be a great QB, win the SB, or beat a team in the playoffs that has a QB with big physical gifts and tools. Look no further than Montana who didn't have a strong arm but is as great a playoff QB as you'll find. He beat Marino in the SB, you know.. a guy with great physical gifts and tools.

I agree you need a very good QB, and I agree Jayden Daniels is impressive, but don't try pushing this "big physical gifts and tools" stuff. That's what led you to clamor for Herbert who has so far turned out to be a massive playoff choker.

 

All I got out of this game is that Jayden Daniels is really good and Dan Campbell is a fraud head coach who was out coached and outclassed again.

Running a wide receiver reverse pass down by 10 points is beyond dumb. He was still playing like it was a random Week 9 game.

 

Brady and Brees didn't have that strong arms. You don't need to be built like Jayden to win a SB even in the modern age.

And it absolutely matters that Herbert chokes. Saying choking doesn't matter is like saying you don't care if you win a playoff game. Since when? Playing well in big games and especially in the playoffs was one thing you kept attacking Tua on, but Herbert is worse.

As far as Jackson, I've been anti-Jackson due to him choking in the playoffs but always said you need at least 150+ passing attempts to really see. It's really interesting that he had 4 terrible playoff games with 136 passing attempts before he finally had a great one. Kind of like Flacco. Right before hitting that 150 mark they started playing well. We'll see though.

 

Brady is absolutely modern NFL. You lost that argument. And he was known for a weak arm coming out of college. He improved it over time, but he was never known for a strong arm.

And you can't use a "small sample size" argument with Herbert when you absolutely refused to allow that with Tua. Sorry, that's a double standard, and until you show you can apply the same standard to both QBs your small sample size argument doesn't work. I'm the one saying it's small sample size. That's why I qualified my critique of Tua and Herbert with "thus far", or more generally with the 150 attempt argument. You can't though because you won't apply the same standard to both.

Also, I have not changed my tune on Tua vs. Jackson. I'm saying wait and see.

 

Brady was known for a weak arm early on. That's a fact. He improved it over time, but he absolutely disproves your claim that you need a strong arm to win a SB in the modern day.

And no, I kept saying we have too small sample size with Tua in the playoffs to make any claim about him not being good in the playoffs. You called that "delusional". Sorry you of all people can't use a small sample size argument to support Herbert because you absolutely refuse to use the same standards for Tua.

And I didn't say I think Tua is better than Jackson. I said wait and see.. you know "sample size"?

 

Look up the Combine results and what talent evaluators said for Brady pre-draft. Slow and weak arm. He was widely known for that for maybe the first decade of his career. He never had one of the strongest arms, but like I said he did improve it. You can definitely win a SB in the modern day NFL without a strong arm. And Peyton doing so his 2nd time when he was almost a lame duck is further evidence.

btw.. here are some quotes about Brady as a prospect from talent evaluators:

There are a lot of quotes from talent evaluators like that. You're not going to argue you can evaluate Brady's arm strength better than the talent evaluators back then or?

Herbert has the same problem Tua has in that his record against winning teams and playoffs teams is really poor. You never applied the same criteria to him. Double standard.

And there is definitely a need to wait and see. Flacco is a great example of someone who became a great playoff QB late (we'll see about Jackson). It's actually interesting how well that 150 passing attempt criterion worked in that case. You've been wrong about enough things that you really should doubt yourself more. Wait and see is correct, with both Tua and Herbert.

 

I don't think Daniels has a huge arm or makes strong throws but his accuracy, touch and poise are off the charts for a rookie quarterback. I don't love his frame running the ball 10+ times a game though. I wish they would cut down the designed runs. He doesn't need to run because he is deadly in the pocket.

Hope he avoids a sophomore slump like Stroud did after everyone crowned him after his rookie year

 

Precisely why we need to wait and see what happens. It is very impressive for sure, especially for a rookie, but let's see what happens after teams game plan for this guy.

 

Yep. Daniels has played very impressively.

We have to consider the fact, however, that he averaged about 200 yards passing per game this season. Quinn made sure that his opportunities for mistakes were really low.

And Dan Quinn made Matt Ryan look elite, also.

I’m not saying that Daniels won’t one day become elite, but I prefer to wait before making any asinine posts like the original one here. I think the OP said the same things about Love and Stroud, too.

How many times have we seen a rookie come out on fire in their first season only to crash and burn after? More often than not.

 

Shouldn't this be in the 2024 season playoffs thread?

On the topic though, the Redskins really impressed me last night. I had no idea they were going to be able to put up 45 on the Lions. It was just inconceivable to me. I'm happy for the Lions to have the season they did, just wish they could have made it to the dance.

Seems the NFC is truly a toss up right now.

 

Of the teams still left in the hunt only Stafford is what you would consider a traditional pocket passer, all the other teams have a QB with a legit threat of being able to run. The game has come a long way since Randall Cunningham came on the scene with his loose running style. The game is changing before our eyes to one that requires a QB with more than just accuracy from the pocket. NOT being able to run is a serious weakness without a "Berlin Wall" type of Oline.

 

I would mostly agree with you here. The quarterback position is evolving to a player who can not only throw the ball with precision, but can be a threat himself with the ball in his hands. But with that evolution though comes a need for a change in the rules. I’ll come back to that in a second.

Can teams win though with a pure pocket passing quarterback? I say yes but there are 2 things a team with a pure pocket passing quarterback needs; a stout offensive line and a dominant running back. Yes, a dominant running back. They’re going to become invaluable once again.

With quarterbacks becoming more agile, faster and able to run the ball themselves, teams are going to be building their teams with faster pass rushers, to blow past the tackles and get to the quarterback. With that type of pass rushing defense, running backs with a stout offensive line are going to able to exploit that defensive overcompensation with rushes between the tackles and breaking free up the middle for big gains. It’s going to happen mark my words. Teams are going to eventually search for Derrick Henrys or Jerome Bettis’ to exploit the middle of the field to bring balance to speedy pass rushing teams.

Now, if that rushing threat is now falling on this new breed of quarterbacks, should those quarterbacks who decide to scramble and juke and jive and rush be afforded the “protection” the current rule book affords quarterbacks? If they are no longer stand in the pocket, vulnerable to certain hits that risk injury and are essentially becoming running backs themselves, then shouldn’t they be treated like any other skill player who has the ball? I saw at least 3 unnecessary roughness calls against Houston and Detroit for hits on Mahomes and Daniels when they were clearly no longer a quarterback and now a running back. TDK’s mindset is this, if you are a quarterback and once to commit to running, you’re fair game. It’s getting ridiculous to the point you can even TOUCH a quarterback and it’s killing the game.

 

I think you guys are misreading recent history here. There's a difference between there being more QBs who are a threat to run (i.e., change in talent pool) versus it being necessary to have such a QB to win a SB. You don't need a QB that is a threat to run to win the SB. And you certainly don't need a dominant RB.

In 2021 the Rams won the SB with a pocket QB without a dominant RB ending up 25th in total rushing yards.
In 2020 the Bucs won the SB with a pocket QB without a dominant RB ending up 29th in total rushing yards.
And before that you had all those Brady years without a dominant RB.

So other than Mahomes you really don't see SB wins by QBs who are a threat to run. Good OL is important, but not RB. Although Burrow making it that far with a trash OL shows you it's possible without the OL if the QB is good enough (of course he didn't win in the end).

 

I think what the Lions proved last night is that you need to stop the other team from putting up 45 points to win a playoff game. And on a side note I'm very disappointed the Lions are out. It would be nice to see a different team in the Super Bowl for a change. KC in the conference game 7 years straight is like a stale piece of bread growing fuzz.

 

It’s not like Mahomes is some speed demon. He runs like a 5.0 40 yard dash… lol. He’s good at scrambling because he knows when and how to run. He’s a pocket QB with good mobility in the pocket and he’s so good passing that defenders typically leave him lanes to run because they’re concerned more about his arm.

Pretending that a QB has to be Lamar or Daniels in the scrambling department to win a SB is just ignorance.

 

I didn’t say you needed that type of quarterback to win a Super Bowl. Brad, we’ve had PLENTY of discussions over the years that you know my mindset to offensive success, and a running quarterback doesn’t fall into that mindset. A stingy hard nosed brutal defense, a stout offensive line, a dominant running back and an accurate precise quarterback.

 

Admittedly your post was somewhat surprising to me because I didn't hear from you before that you thought a dual threat QB was necessary to win a SB. But if you read your own post again (what I quoted) that's the implication of what you wrote because that's what Hooligan was arguing and you said you mostly agreed. Anyway, good you clarified your stance.

 

Nothing happens overnight in the NFL. The trend appears to be towards mobile, athletic QBs, Jaelen Hurts, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, Daniels when a couple decades ago Donovan McNabb and Cunningham were considered oddballs for their style of play. Mobile athletic QBs are a growing trend, not a necessity. Giving the defense more things to think about is not a bad idea. No arguing, just an observation.

 

Yeah this I agree with. It's a recent trend, not a necessity.

 

It would be funny to see Stafford and Mahomes in the SB. Ruining the mantra that you need to be a Jackson/Daniels-esque type running QB to win a SB.

 

Yea, this is essentially what I was saying…it’s TRENDING that way but I don’t agree that’s what needed to win.

 

btw.. there's a caveat to the observation that there's a recent trend towards more running QBs in the NFL. While it's true there are more than ever before, the probability of a running QB winning the SB really hasn't changed that much.

Steve Young was a great runner with 43 rushing TDs!! That on top of being the only QB leading the league 6 times in passer rating (adjusted for era he's the highest ever). Staubach, Bradshaw and Elway were also threats to run, and then you have Russell Wilson. So you've always had QBs that are dual threat and have won the SB.

Also we've never quite seen someone like Jackson or Daniels win a SB as QB. Some people thought Vick might do it, and Cam Newton came close — great example of a pocket passer (Peyton) with a weak arm winning against that kind of raw physical talent in the SB — but no one really like Jackson as of yet.

The other caveat is that this isn't the first time people thought there would be a new trend towards rushing QBs. People were talking about that happening a few decades ago but it never really materialized. So it remains to be seen whether this is a blip that goes away or whether it's something more permanent.

 

I think the truth is, you need a QB that is accurate and is football smart. It’s nice to have a QB that can make plays with his legs, but unless they can also be a really good passer, they won’t go far. Unless they have a historic defense, of course.

Look at Vick, Cunningham, and many others like them. Vick sucked as a passer and Cunningham was maybe average, at best. Russel Wilson is a terrific passer. Elway and Young were terrific passers and terrific runners. They would have won SB’s without that ability to run.

And today we see the best running QB’s in the game NOT winning SB’s. Allen and Jackson are the best in the NFL, how many SB’s do they have? Saying that, Jackson and Allen have gotten a lot better in the passing game.

Give me an accurate and smart QB over a Michael Vick every time.

I don’t think it’s some new revelation saying that a QB who can run is good. However, we see hyperbole now from some saying that they MUST be elite runners to win. And that’s just provably wrong.

 

They over performed because of superior depth and coaching, and this was your takeaway?

 

Lesson from the lions this year is they need to improve their defense and stay healthy. Although having a more dynamicQB would also help.

 

Allen had 20 yards rushing and 140 yards passing. Sit down.

 

Oh come on dude. Allen had some key runs and scrambles. Just the threat of him running ads a whole different dynamic to their offense. They even design their offense around his ability to run and scramble.

Acting like it's not important to have a mobile QB who can scamble to extend plays and pickup yards on his own is ridiculous.

Meanwhile we are stuck with Tua who cannot be depended on to even run a QB sneak without going on IR.

 

Careful Dan. A lot of Allen gobblers around here might get upset.

 

There's plenty of Tua threads. This isn't one of them.

 

Not really. He had the two 1 yard rushing TD’s. He walked in. Any RB could have done that.

It’s nice to have, but it’s not “important”. The Bill’s offensive line and defense won that game yesterday. Along with Lamar crapping the bed with his buddy Andrews.

Allen was efficient and mistake free, which is great, but he was along for the ride yesterday.

The best thing the Bills have done is hire Brady who took the ball out of Allen’s hands. Thataway he can’t make all the boneheaded throws he usually makes.

 

Them and Tony Romo.

 

I chuckled at a Romo quote yesterday about a terrible Allen pass.

He said something like "That was a perfect throw he just didn't put it in the right spot". Lol