Many examples if you just ignore the elite weapons on the teams you just mentioned. Josh Allen is a one man show but just ignore he made the leap when they got Diggs?
What, hell no it’s not that stats as to why a GM picks a player It gets their attention for sure and you do look at production but it’s not why you choose the pkayer sorry to break the news to ya You watch in isolation without watching anyone else, every position. For a Qb, as soon as the ball has been placed in the weapons hands you move to the next play… that’s a fact
Dude.. read my post again. You completely misread that. I'm saying that the way to tell whether a GM made a mistake or not is to look at the QB's statistics over that QB's career.. in the NFL if that wasn't clear. That's as much "fact" as what you're saying if you go by who is historically considered a great QB. So in the end it's stats that determine greatness, not the initial eval by the GM.
Sorry man..I’m not sure what we’re debating at this point Let me pose this question What if you had a Qb who had off the chart efficiency numbers like completion percentage, ypa, incredible td to int percentage But your weapons were last in yac and separation so the numbers were absolutely affected How do you determine if he’s elite?
Assuming this is all data in the NFL (not college so you're not making an eval for draft purposes), then I'd look at historical data to find the best mathematical relation between those efficiency numbers (e.g. comp%, Y/A) and "weapons" numbers (YAC, separation) so that we can calculate "expected" distributions of the efficiency stats given the weapons stats. Once you have those distributions you can calculate the probability of observing the efficiency stats given the actual weapons stats for any QB. If you have a predetermined threshold for defining "elite" (e.g., top 5th percentile), then you can then say whether the QB is elite or not. That's in principle what I'd do, but it takes time to scrape data from sites (e.g., pro-football-reference) and do the programming. It's a good way of seeing who really did perform above or below expected given his surroundings (or whatever other environment/weapons stats you want to include). It's also era independent because it's using percentiles.
What about just casually dismissing a Hall of Fame and possibly greatest tight end of all time? What about casually dismissing a 10,000 yard receiver who catches 100 balls damn near every season, even before Herbert got there, or a running back who has scored 40 touchdowns the last two years? Nice to see Hitman back.
Diggs is not bearly as good as Hill, and he's just one guy. Non of the guys I mentioned are playing with a future hall of famer like Hill is (except maybe Kelce). Another example is Marino, he went his whole career without a hall of fame reciever or any elite weapons to throw to, and still showed his greatness.
Hill isn't the bar for being elite. Diggs is elite. Period. Pretty lame to move the goal posts to Hall of Fame.
Absolute insane logic and disrespect for other players just to keep a narrative going. At least you corrected your first post where you said Kelce is "maybe a Hall of Famer".
We need to compare apples to apples. If Tua has a hall of famer to throw to and multiple elite weapons on offense, you can't equate that as being anywhere near the same as Allen for example who has only Diggs and no hall of famers to throw to.
You are severely underrating Diggs. He and Hill's career numbers are almost identical. Who are all these elite weapons that Tua is throwing to? Waddle isn't elite yet. Berrios? Smythe? Achane has played three games. Mostert is a journeyman.
He's right about that. Hill was never looked on as a future hall of famer until he came here. Most people thought we overpaid for him.
I would imagine your view of Tyreek as certainly been elevated by his time with Tua because you probably would have raved over what a steal the trade was if you thought he was this good all along. I am not equating it to anything and I am not making any claims about Tua being better than anyone. The only point I am making is the top guys have top guys to throw to. I do think maybe other than Hurts Tua is probably in the best situation in the league. He was also in the worst before the McDaniel era and you certainly wouldn't have given him any slack for that. You can't have it both ways.
What does this say about Hill? Why think Hill is elite if he didn't elevate Mahomes? Something is wrong with your view of Hill. You keep acting like elite WRs elevate QB play, but that should be true no matter the QB. Your only out here is to suggest that elite WRs don't elevate elite QB play, but that runs up against one of the best examples: Moss in 2007 made Brady's stats skyrocket. Also remember Hill is having a career year thus far with Tua: 19.4 Y/R is higher than anything with Mahomes. Something's not right about your view of how WRs affect QBs and vice versa. Let's see your explanation for this.
We saw last year Tua posting similar efficiency when passing to people not named Tyreek Hill as he did passing to Tyreek Hill. People have posted that this year Tua has a higher passer rating when Hikk is off the field than when Hill is on it.
Hills last year with Mahomes he averaged 9.3 targets a game. In Miami he averaged 10 per game last year, and just under that (9.8) this. Just in case that argument comes up.
Something else to consider now that you've finally accepted Tua is an elite QB in this system. There's no evidence you can build a team around Herbert so that a Herbert-led offense would perform as well as our current Tua-led offense. Certainly no one has done that as of yet with Herbert. That of course means Grier got the Tua vs. Herbert choice right, given that he also got the right coach and weapons around Tua to produce this league leading offense. So even before we win a playoff game — your set threshold for "celebrating" — you have to admit Grier has done a very good job in building an elite level offense, pending further outcomes of course. This would be a massive (and I mean massive) admission on your part given how much you crapped on Grier. You can't even say he drafted poorly given the outsized importance of the QB. He even drafted Waddle and Achane, among others. All the while doing well in FA.
Hall of Fame induction to determine greatness is quite subjective. Some of the great elite receivers Marino had to throw to were Moore, Clayton, Duper and Fryer. "yea, but they aren't in the Hall of Fame"...and just how long did it take Zach Thomas to finally get in? Great quarterbacks have great receivers to throw to. The quarterback throws it...someone has to catch it.
Have we finally reached the bottom of the well of things to discredit Tua with? "I think his receivers are much better than everyone else's so that means he isn't that good." Cool story.
Not to mention, the move was universally panned because they thought Hill was wasting his career playing with Tua.
Agreed. Nice to have the Dolphins QB legacy started back up. Griese -> Marino -> Tua. 24 years in the wilderness is too long.
Josh Allen was starting to look like a bust before Diggs and Daboll turned his career around. Herbert walked into an offence with a top 10 WR duo and Austin Ekler, probably the best receiving back in the league. Mahomes still has the best receiving TE of all time who is a complete miss match and one the best offensive minds in history designing and call plays for him. It's all moot anyway. If Tua continues to play like he is just now the chances are he is tied at the hip with McDaniel until he retires as the Dolphins are going to have a lot of success.
That Moss season was insane. You see the talking heads saying this season that Tyreek is the best non-QB weapon in the league and the best deep threat ever like they forgot that Randy Moss even existed.
Diggs is a top 5 WR in the league. Gabe Davis isn't a bad #2. Both of their TE's are miles better than the Dolphins. I'm pretty sure before the season started you thought Mostert and the rest of the Dolphins backfield were JAG's but now suddenly Tua has "multiple elite weapons"? You must get tired with all the moving of goalposts that you do.
Greir has not done well in FA, and he has not done well in drafting overall, he has done great only in trading for established superstars, and even there he has some misses like Chubb. Trading is not the same as signing free agents. Aside from mostert his free agents Signings have mostly been flops or underwhwlming. Even the McDaniel hire while great is him trying to salvaje the Tua pick and make up for the ****show situation he created with the Flores hire. And it is still too early in the season to celebrate anything. If we get to winning at least one playoff game this season then I will give him some credit. Remember buffalo and Cincy started their rebuild around the same time we did and have had a lot more success than we have in the same time frame. So no, Grier is not some great GM, he is working hard to make up for his mistakes, but it's still too early to say if he has been successful.
lol. Who cares if you think he's trying to "salvage" something. Point is he built the team you currently see. He put together the components of a #1 offense, which we haven't had in decades! The results speak for themselves. As long as this success continues, yes Grier is a very good GM, and he did it both through the draft (especially Tua) and FA. You're going to be on a defenseless island if you argue results don't matter.
This is what you are supposed to do. Would you have really preferred they left Tua in a dumpster just so you can be right about him?
I don't think you're giving Grier the credit he deserves. The roster was stripped down to the ground like nothing we've ever seen. Guys were jumping out of Miami like rats on a burning ship. Grier was able to make several key trades to aquire a boatload of first and second round picks. Those picks were used to draft key players and were what gave them the fire power to make the trade for Tyreek Hill. The Ramsey trade was a home run. I also give credit for the moves Grier didn't make. He had to pick between Tua and Flores. Most of the time the coach gets his way and the GM makes moves in the coach's interest. If Grier listened to Flores Tua would be gone, we'd have Deshaun Watson, and no Tyreek Hill without all the draft capital given up for Watson. I bet there was some serious consideration to pull the trigger on that Watson trade. But next thing you know all the pieces fall together with McDaniel and Tua teaming up for the greatest show on turf. I've been a fan of the Dolphins for 44 years and it's the most electric, dynamic, balanced team I've ever seen. Grier deserves praise.
Yes I said it was great, nice way to recover from a bad situation, but he is still responsible for creating said bad situation in the first place. Everyone seems to want to give him a pass and ignore that he is the one who hired Flores.
Who cares. You don't hold any GM to the standard of "make no major mistakes". What separates the great ones from the bad isn't a higher batting average, it's building a consistent winner and SB champion, even if that comes late in your tenure (i.e., lower overall batting average). Granted, Grier has yet to prove this, but he's on his way. I mean, imagine if you used that criterion with HCs. Would you say Landry was a bad HC because he started off terrible, with 5 consecutive losing seasons? etc. Doesn't matter what mistakes you make if you end up successful in the end. Also, let's be clear about something else. Grier did not "salvage" Tua. He took Tua by design and found the right pieces to complement him. There was no salvaging operation there. I'll give you Flores, but that goes back to the "try until you succeed" mantra.
Possibly but wouldn't you think its a bit ridiculous to trash them for firing Flores and then when its turns out to be the right call you then trash them for hiring him in the first place?
Tua was not very good and often injurede his first three years, nobody thought he was the right pick and his coaches and teammates didn't believe in him. McDaniel was indeed brought in to salvaje the situation and he has done an admirable job so far. But again, having great offensive stats through six weeks against bad teams does not now make Grier a great GM. Let's wait until the end of the season and see if we manage to get over the hump before declaring Grier and the team a success. That's the problem I have with homers they are always celebrating and making super bowl plans prematurely.
First 2 years he wasn't that good, not first 3 – last year he was #1 in key passing stats. However, even after the first 2 years there were many here (including me) that were not convinced he was a bad pick, because it was still too small sample size. Tua's stats his first 2 years were still consistent with a QB that could elevate his play in the years afterwards. That's why year 3 was so important. Either way, it's clear in retrospect the problem was Flores, not Tua. So no, Tua did not need salvaging. That was a great pick given the kind of offense you can build around him. And of course I'm fine with waiting to see how this season ends to come to a more firm conclusion regarding Grier. But that doesn't mean we should just ignore the evidence thus far.
Coming off the his injury we should strike the rookie season from the record, he had no business starting that season
Interesting. I haven't seen one person celebrating a Super Bowl here and I'm gonna have to go back to find out if you celebrated winning a game. It doesn't take much effort to be happy that your players play well. We're leading the league in total offense by a wide margin. We'll likely regress toward the rest of the teams, but we're literally on a historic pace. What's not to be happy about? If you aren't going to enjoy the voyage, why don't you wait until we get to the end of the season and either complain about what you missed or join the parade? I guess in your perfect world, after winning a game, the message board should be like: (thread title) Dolphins Beat Chargers 36-34 (first post) We beat the Chargers 36-34 (second post) Yep (third post) Who do we play next week? Sounds fun, but I'm gonna pass. Seriously, there's always room to criticize but there's nothing wrong with seeing what you want to see when you watch your favorite team playing well against anybody.
