The thing is, one side is looking at say, the passing game, and pointing out flaws amongst everyone involved, and one side is looking at it and only pointing out flaws in the QB. Then the argument turns into arguing about how those people aren't being fair.
Everyone on one side has been consistent for years. Everyone on the other side consistently moves the goalposts/creates new definitions and changes criteria based on the QB being discussed. This is fact. One side has said Thill (like most good QBs) needs an average oline, commitment to the run and the ability to audible to win. The other side has said: - TD to Int ratio was important until Thill did well at that - 20 yard deep passes were important until he was good at that, then it became 40 yards. - QB rating was important, until he has a few good QB ratings games then its just stupid stats. - Clutch is important, until its shown he can do that, then the definition gets changed - It factor is important even though it means something new every time its used - YPA is important until his is good. - Not being allowed to audible shows he's the problem, until a new coach lets him. - Wins are on the QB unless its a win with Thill at QB. And now, he's having games like Wilson does, where its a high QB rating with a serious rushing threat and a defense playing well......but instead the running game and defense is just bailing him out.
It's the same 10 people who keep these threads going. I don't post as often as some, but I'm guilty of it myself. FinD, Res, Dolphins 25, FinO, you guys are as guilty as anyone. I don't care who's right or wrong, you debate the same opponent for this long you're going to either come to blows, start name calling or end up sounding as dumb as anyone. Just reality. I don't think Tannehill is special. That's my opinion. Sick of explaining why. It's 1,000 things. I bet most of us agree he's not special. So what's the f'ing point of arguing? What are we even talking about anymore!?
Nothing I said is untrue or inaccurate. The sides aren't equal here. One has been consistent, the other has not. That is irrefutable fact. You know it.
I'll say this, there was about a week period where FinD and I both stopped posting anything Tannehill related. During that period, the arguments continued, and actually had a few posters who are usually only in club, in these threads arguing with the same naysayers.
I don't really get too involved in the debate anymore either, but I think what we've seen the last two weeks is what us pro-Tannehill guys have been saying all along. Ryan Tannehill isn't an elite quarterback, and likely won't ever be. However, when you give him a solid O-line and a running game...he's more than good enough. This isn't my opinion, it's a fact. We are now 9-1 in games with Albert, Pouncey, and James starting. Tannehill's passer rating is over 100 and the running game excels as well. THIS is what we all wanted. A balanced offense where we don't have to rely on throwing 50 passes a game with a shaky offensive line. In general, I just think it's funny that the critics will bash the supporters for "making excuses" for Ryan, yet now that Tannehill is playing well in this role, the critics are quick to point out that "he isn't doing much". So they're now the ones making excuses for him succeeding. It's hilarious, that's all.
We will see in the weeks ahead how well Tanny (and Gase for that matter) can handle teams stacking the box to take away the run game and daring Tanny to beat them with the pass. If he can't do it, then I'll agree we need another QB. I've been close at times on giving up on him, but let this season play out and then we can evaluate.
That ranking is horrible. I understand that he's going by 2016 stats, but Tom Brady is 1st? He's played three games against teams with a combined record of 7-14. lol Taylor, Winston, Smith, Flacco all ahead of RT?
Check out the Arizona game in 2012 when Tannehill was a rookie. They stacked the box and the result was Tannehill threw for 400 yards and put Brian Hartline into the Pro Bowl off of one game. That was 4 years ago, with Hartline, Bess and Fasano as his top receivers...
the key to this is one one one's because of the stacking of the box. make a few throws, and they lay off.
In Games where the OL has allowed 1 or 0 sacks this year RT17 has had a 90+ passer rating in every single game. In games where the OL has allowed 5 or more sacks his passer rating has been (round figures) 80, 75 and 60. I haven't pulled figures from other teams, but I'd be willing to bet that those are among the higher ratings for QBs taking 5+ sacks.
Let me just say Fin D, I don't even know who these "sides" are. It's really not that apparent. I joined 2 years ago and the only constant that stands out to me is that Resnor has put a lot of effort into defending Tannehill. Whether Res is "fair" or he's an "apologist" depends on one's perspective, but he's been consistent, so I give him credit there. That's the only constant. But nobody's else's take has been good enough for me to remember. So if anyone thinks they're coming here making some awesome argument, let me point out that you're not. I hate to inform the rest of you but nobody's listening because there's nothing interesting or insightful being presented that wasn't presented a long time ago. Nobody's take has been so influential that it's changed how Tannehill is viewed. I can't keep of track of who said what when it's mostly opinionated bickering. So if there are indeed "sides" to this, ya'll should make some effort to at least come together so it's apparent what's going on. And if you really know who you're calling out, call them out by name. Enough of this "they say" and "we say" nonsense. This is why these threads go on for hundreds of pages and why the old "don't argue with an idiot" mantra is so true. Seriously...what's even happening here? What a mess. I think if I were a Mod I'd just outlaw Tannehill threads. What's the point? All they do is allow trollish posting that bleeds into other threads and now it's in Club as well.
I spent the offseason advocating defense and running game so I'm in heaven with the way the team's played the last couple weeks. Give me anybody handing off the Ajayi behind this line and I'm one happy camper! But I'm also smart enough to admit that when minimizing a guys role leads to better overall performance, it's potentially suggestive of the fact he's not an elite player. I understand no QB can completely carry a team. You can have too much Dan Marino, right? Lean on one guy too much and neglect other areas, you suck. We see it all the time. And the Dolphins have sucked big-time in Tannehill's era so he's never had a great shot. EVERYBODY knows that. Nobody neglects that fact. The guy needs to be given a fair shot or we need to be man enough to admit when we're just ready for something new. I'm right in the middle. To me there's too much damning evidence that he's "meh." I think you could probably draft just about anyone and wind up with more or less the same record. I don't see Tannehill leading his team through the Play-offs. I don't see him becoming better when the competition is stronger. The data just doesn't suggest it. I've showed that with factual analysis. Don't talk to me about a couple 90+ ratings with minimal sacks. Dude, I've got 4.5 years of data that contradict what Pauly suggested. So Pauly, don't even start. Go read my look at Tannehill's 70 games and how they present a picture of a QB who (even without sacks) is still under-performing! But that's the problem. He doesn't suck. He's just average. So every time the team wins people go right back to the same crappy narratives. So that's why I said, I'm done explaining why he's average. 70 games worth of data don't lie. Even Resnor, the ultimate Tannehill defender said he's off the bandwagon. Is there any better sign we need!? You're not going to win a Super Bowl and build a great team around an "okay" QB. That doesn't happen with today's rules unless you have the top defense. Every QB in this modern era save for a couple (who had a top defense) has had to step up big-time in passer rating to prove themselves. Even guys like Joe Flacco and Eli Manning are a notch above Tannehill--clearly. Flacco had a 117 rating through his run while Manning was awesome in 2011. He absolutely helped carry a lackluster team. He was the best asset. Go look at the defensive rankings. They weren't special. So seriously...what's to be discussed? If you have a running game you ditch your limited $20M QB and invest in the position. If you can get him for a lesser number you keep him and rebuild the rest of the team and see what happens. Either way, Tannehill can't be your long-term option unless you plan on building an elite defense. Maybe Tannenbaum wants that but what did my posts about the last 7 years of drafting say? We're all about offense! We haven't seriously drafted defense since early in the Ireland years. I don't see an elite defense coming anytime soon. What Miami has is a rush-oriented, play-with-a-lead kind of defense which is designed to compliment a potent offense. So again, the team is banking on the QB to produce above average. It ain't gonna work that way. Anyone who says that at this point is ignoring all that data. I'm fine with that. Everyone's got a take. Some are happy with hope and some are stone-cold and detached. I'm probably the latter. I'm just sick of the constant bickering amongst fans. It's toxic to anyone who wishes to have actual conversation.
Btw, Rocky. I have to say that you are one of my favorites posters and that goes back to December of 2014 when I joined the site. You've always been a fan first, but also someone who's remarkably fair and balanced, insightful and mature. I bet I'm speaking for many when I say I really appreciate your takes. You should post more along with many others who seem to be retreating. Anyhow, that's the problem we have right now. Good, insightful posters are retreating and we have a swell of what I'd argue are JAGs (or JAPs - Just Another Poster ). This is why I say, I just can't keep track of who's saying what anymore. There seem to be countless folks who come here just to argue little things. They create reactionary threads after games which are fodder for BS chit-chat which is all supposed to be contained in Game Threads. And a lot of them don't do any research whatsoever. It just feels like weird times. It feels like the weather is changing and that's winter's coming or something. I think we all understood what Disgustipate was saying in his Club thread. I swear the vibe is as though there's nothing positive to discuss at all. And that's what I can't explain. It seems to me that there are tons of positive things we could discuss. You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of those final months when I was on FootballsFuture.com and nobody had anything positive left to say. A bad game was used as evidence of how bad Chad Henne, Ted Ginn, Tony Sparano and Jeff Ireland were. A good game became about how if we could just replace Chad Henne, Ted Ginn, Tony Sparano and Jeff Ireland, we’d surely have something, LOL. All people wanted to do was chat about the same things and it’s as if they’d distilled their entire opinion down to a few general sentiments about particular positions and every day it was "oh, I better remind the whole world how I feel about this." Look at the Tannehill thread in Club: 20 pages long through 10 months and in the last month it's ballooned up to 70+ pages. It started as insightful, honest, serious discussion. Now it's mains 2.0. I'm not trying to sound elitist, it just feels like things have turned in the wrong direction, like momentum is moving away from careful and well-thought-out insight.
Rocky is definitely good people. Well said. I look at you and CK who both have 60k posts and I wonder, has this forum changed for you guys? I seems more crowded to me in only 2 years time? I felt like a joined a nice little club but now it's like trying to talk in the middle of grand central station.
I don't care what you know or don't. You aren't the arbiter of what is and what isn't good posting around here. You're not objective either, no matter how you try to paint it. The Club started to go the way of the mains when a certain poster or two joined the club. Its not a surprise these things happened at the same time. (I'm not insinuating its you. Its others.....) I've been here. I've been in the thick of it. I know who is and who isn't whichever side. Whether you remember or don't, I know for a fact, people aren't going around making all these threads/posts praising Thill ridiculously. No, what there is OTOH, are people going around and making all these threads/posts blasting Thill ridiculously. This is all fact.
i don't think anything has changed, people come and go, the good thing is the good ones don't seem to go.. I like a lot of people that seem to have bad raps though..it's all about trying to understand their frustration..people express their fandom differently...someone who is always negative doesn't bother me because #1 they have that right with this franchise, and 2, I know they love their team.. My philosophy is giving each player, coach, exec, a clean slate when they start no matter the past, and then give them a fair amount of time regardless of the preconceived notions, to either shine or hang themselves..
I agree with you about Club. Something significant has happened recently. I don't know what it is. You've spent a lot longer on this board than me. Maybe that's why you feel you have a better handle on who says/thinks what. For me, I'm being honest, I'm lost. I'm not trying to be snarky or mean or dismissive. It just seems to me that a lot of people believe their opinions to be very important almost as though they think there's some war going on with actual sides. I don't see it. So who exactly is on each side and who exactly has said what? For the record, please enlighten me.
I really appreciate that, Greg. Thank you. The problem to me with the Tannehill debate is it gets way too heated and way too personal. It's the nature of the position as it's the easiest to blame and the easiest to praise. I don't have anything against any poster who shares a different view on Ryan. I respect all opinions but because it's the quarterback everything gets magnified, especially emotions. Personally, I hate ALL quarterbacks. Except the one under center for us, of course.
That's a good approach but I think it can be shown that good posters are retreating to high ground. Some are Club-only. Some have gone to scouting only. Some just don't post that often. They're not gone but they've opened a door for the less insightful stuff. Maybe the less insightful drove them back? Chicken or the egg, I guess. I've seen it happen towards the end of a regime though. Everything looks glum. Everything needs improvement. Nobodies got anything positive to say. It seems like we are beginning something in Miami though. The vibes seem to negative. Inexplicably so.
This covers exactly what each side has said: Me, resnor, adam, rocky, dan marino, smathaz and many of the people that thanked the post I just quoted. People on the other side, FinO, rock, finster, serpico, jdang, cbrad, bignasty, and a bunch of others.
I think tough teams that run the ball and play good defense are fun. They play tighter, wear down their opponents and bust big plays in the 4th to win. They get called clutch. Maybe they are. I just like football when it's a team thing. What I've seen in Miami recently resembles that. I can root for that. Now, I think you're going to have to get something from Tannehill you haven't ever seen in order to win a Super Bowl, but I'm a big advocate of keeping priorities and just trying to be competitive first, before you start talking Super Bowl. At this point, I'd take a winning season and a Playoff game. Give me something! We'll talk Super Bowl later. I get that philosophy. I can respect it.
Ok, thank you! For the record, stuff like TD:INT and YPA are very important. How a guy grades relative to expectation is as well. This year the YPA is WAAAAY up. No doubting that and it's one of the best metrics. It suggests good play. Might be biased by a few games, IDK. Hard to argue any QB that ends a season above 8. I doubt Cbrad wouldn't give Tannehill his due credit. Cbrad is all about YPA and the importance of passer rating, which is statistically pretty much proven. That suggests you might he lumping guys together and blaming one for the sins of another. Also keep in mind that when Tannehill checks a box so to speak yet the eye test still says otherwise it can also point to a flaw in the metric. Plus, a lot of those things you said are sketch. Tannehill clutch? Is everyone agreeing on that now? I don't think so. It's kind of like the scrambling. Nobody says he can't. Some are just bothered by the inconsistency. The problem with borderline QBs is that there are bad data points that offset the good ones so both sides have feasible points. The presence of both good and bad performances are what suggest Tannehills is limited. That said, I'm still bothered by the ratings versus expectation stuff I uncovered. That was pretty damning IMO.
You're doing exactly what I'm talking about. Cbrad is all about proving his already held belief that Thill is not the answer. He is not objective either. The stuff you uncovered is flawed. I tried to explain that to you and some others did as well in Club.
No. He's doing that thing he does. He's basically calling me out, because I said that to him when he insulted my wife.
Does Andre Luck still a product of his variables or does his game stand alone, and is it just a matter of time before it resurfaces? Replace Luck with Wilson..replace Luck with Ryan
I think comparative stats are how you approach that. You can't do it with imagination. If you want to enlighten folks by describing what you see with your eyes that'd be helpful. Otherwise comparative Stat tracking is your most reliable look. Pauly did it. I've begun doing it.
He's just about the last guy that should ever do the judging. Wasn't our argument the whole time that Tannehill's best as a caretaker so far, and not a play maker? So somehow Ajayi running for more yards than Tannehill passes for is evidence proving us wrong? So he's JAG. Okay. What is a list of QBs That can do what Tanny did the last two weeks. Save for a select few lunatic fringe nobody here thinks he's a terrible quarterback. But we want our quarterback to be great. Let's get a five game stretch where he commands the offense takes over games and makes this his team. Right now it's Ajayi's show. When will it be the Tannehill show? Getting a good run game and oline and defense is great for the team. But doesn't change our evaluation of the QB. Only development of Tannehill himself will change my mind. Right now he's in a get you to the playoffs with a good team quarterback. But that is not such a high standard is it? FitzPatrick almost made it last year. 20 to 25 QBs in this league can make it to the playoffs with my team. Sorry if my standards are higher
Yeah not me..I'll just wait it out and see if I'm right...no one has to listen..I have record in my head of most..
