Cowherd "Tannehill's never going to be great, he's never going to be transcendent"

Aaron Rodgers is a stretch. But I do think if you are going to discount Brady for the cheating, you need to knock Rice off too.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on...eating-just-days-before-calling-pats-cheaters

Admitted to using stickum. So basically Randy Moss or Terrell Owens is now the GOAT. Lol.

 

Rodgers may be a stretch, but why is he having the balls sent to checks over-inflated if some of then aren't making it through? I feel like the ball checks may not have really been something that was done very carefully.

Also, is out only cheating if it works? In other words, if you try to cheat, but get caught before the game, and they rectify it, isn't it still cheating?

 

Aaron Rodgers words have been twisted, namely by Patriot fans trying to scorch earth and take everyone down with them. He said he pushes the limits. What that means? I don't know. Maybe 13.6 psi, knowing the refs will test it and air will come out during the testing process. It's a stretch to say he's trying to cheat.

Frankly, the NFL needs to stop letting the QB's manipulate the ball and go back to everyone using the same ball.

 

His mind transcended his brain when he got cracked on the sideline.

 

He's trying to break the rules, it's just less of a transgression than altering the balls after they've been checked. Playable game balls are to be between 12.5 and 13.5. If they fall outside this range, they're not regulation. Knowingly trying to sneak balls through testing that are above this limit, is trying to break the rules.

Aaron says he likes to push the limits of how much air is in them, even going above what the rules allow. So he's trying to sneak one past the goalie. But there isn't going to be any Wells investigation on that. That is not egregious as altering them after they're checked. It's one of those, okay we know you're doing this Aaron stop it, and that's that. It's on the level of a coach standing on the field with his toes over the line when play starts. Very very very minor compared to altering footballs, which itself was minor until this.

 

So, it's not a problem if Rodgers inflates his balls a, even a tiny bit over the limit, and then uses it in a game if it goes through the pre-game check, but Brady is a dirty cheater because his balls are under the limit? So, the argument is, that it only matters if you change the psi AFTER the check, THAT is what makes you a tainted cheater? I just want to be sure I am understanding this. The issue isn't two QBs who could be playing with balls outside the legal limit, the issue is one QB changing the psi after the check.

Look, I'm not a Pats fan, but I am someone who thinks that principles should be applied equally. So, if the issue is playing in a game with balls out of regulation, then anyone calling Brady tainted should certainly be calling Rodgers tainted, as he clearly is attempting to circumvent the rules also. This is not the same as saying that the Patriots should get away with it, simply because others are also doing it. People are certainly trying to characterize my comments on this as if I am saying that. I am not. I'm simply saying, go after all the cheaters, not simply the ones in Patriots jersey.

 

Man...you sure sound like a lawyer!

 

Yes. That's the issue. He circumvented the system of checks and balances.

 

So, then no one really cares about playing with balls outside of the regulated limits? Gotcha. Do you not see the hypocrisy in what you're saying? You are really saying that you don't care about someone cheating, you care about HOW they go about cheating.

 

I edited my post to reflect what I meant. There is a system in place to make sure the playing field is equal. If Brady wants his balls at 10 psi and gives them to the refs at 10 psi, it's not his responsibility to inflate the football to the proper levels. Knowing that, Brady went around the system of checks and balances. That's what makes it cheating.

 

Yeah I should go to law school

Minnesota and Carolina played a game that was so cold, they were heating the balls up before play. That is also illegal, and subject to the same fine the Patriots would have been subjected to with altering the balls after they've been checked. They were issued a warning (league wide) and that was that.

 

So, if someone is knowingly playing in a game, with balls that are outside the legal limits, are they cheating?

Let's look at it a different way...you go to the store, and buy a Coke with a $10 bill. The Coke is $1.59. You should get back in change $8.41. The clerk gives you back $18.41. Is it stealing if you take the money, knowing she gave you the wrong amount, and go on your way? Or is it only stealing if she hands you your $8.41, you distract her while the register is still open, and are able to take out a $10 bill?

 

Technically, yes.

It's like receipt of stolen property, vs stealing it. One is worse. Both are wrong.

 

I'll ask again, to the people defending Brady, what would it take to call into question his legacy? At this point, it sure seems like there's nothing.

 

Win the superbowl without deflated balls against one of the best pass defenses maybe ever.

Yeah he's good. It's one of those, they cheated for no reason, it's pathological. I don't question Rice because he used stickum. He's the best ever too.

 

It wouldn't happen. The balls would not be outside of the legal limit, unless actions were taken after the fact. IE. Having an employee take balls into a bathroom and deflate behind the refs back.

 

For me, that's not really the issue. I mean, you have an all-time great in Jerry Rice, admitting to using stickum...but I don't see people crusading to have Jerry Rice removed from the HoF, or to have an asterisk next to his seasons and his records. Why is it that everyone is going after Brady? Rodgers has admitted to attempting to circumvent the rules, but the same people who are against Brady are making excuses for Rodgers. I'm just saying that there should be consistency.

 

Then again, I ask, why would Rodgers send over-inflated balls to the check? Why would Rodgers express annoyance when his balls were deflated at times? It makes zero sense that he is sending over-inflated balls to the pre-game check if they are never making it through the check.

 

Yeah, this is pretty much where I stand on the issue.

Full disclosure: I have a problem playing devil's advocate sometimes...

 

You're not answering my question.

 

Because I don't really know how to answer it. I personally don't believe that deflating the balls really had that much effect on anything. Like Jdang said, they won the Super Bowl with legal balls, and didn't really have a problem. I think that they do things that they really don't have to do, but I don't know why. But I also don't agree with this idea that the only problem is the deflating after the check. I think, regardless of when the balls are brought outside the legal limits, it's also cheating if someone is knowingly playing in a game with balls outside the legal limit. Although, like I said, I don't think it has that much of an impact.

 

What would have to come to light before you're willing to call Brady's career a sham? This is not a hard question.

 

That he paid of opposing DBs to allow him to complete passes. Or he paid refs off to get those sweet roughing the passer calls. Or he used the mafia to rough up opposing defensive coordinators who blitzed him too often.

I don't know, man. It would have to be something that clearly gave him a significant advantage. Having a second mic in his helmet would certainly call his career into question. I'm just not ready to jump on some rumor and treat it like the truth.

 

I singled out Brady as special back in his second season and then argued that he was better than Manning during their battles due to his near prescient ability to anticipate plays, but throw in all the cheating allegations and a couple that have been proven and the best I can say is, I don't know?. I can't just write it off under "everybody does it". I see those transgressions as significant advantages. And in a world where elite athletes are separated by very little I have to question how much of his success wouldn't have occurred but for his cheating? I mean he's obviously a great QB, but would he have fewer wins and fewer SBs if he and the Pats hadn't cheated? The best I can say is that his legacy is tainted.

 

Where did he really cheat though, let's look at this objectively.

Spygate: Everybody did it. There is no doubting this. Everybody was doing this and that's why Goodell sent out a league wide memo for teams to stop doing it. The Patriots were not punished because they were the first to get caught doing it. They were punished because the league told them to stop, and they did it anyway. Belichick in his arrogance thought he had a loophole so he would disregard the league wide memo. So they technically cheated, for exactly one game. The rumors of them taping the STL walk through was just that, and they required an apology. Jimmy Johnson said a lot of teams did what the Pats did, and then named two organizations and two persons who taught him to do it, one of them still in the NFL. Neither has denied it. I think the memo was sent out because the Patriots threw out a Jets employee for taping. Mangini snitched on the Patriots just because he didn't want them to tape them in their own stadium, not even to get them to stop in general.

Again, their sin was disregarding the memo by the NFL that offseason to stop it. Prior to that, it was a gray area and several teams did it.

Deflation: They only got their balls in 2006-2007 right? So assuming Brady cheated from the very get go, his 3 super bowls before, are still valid, and his path to the Super Bowl this year. But he still did win it with legally inflated balls, and played much better the 2nd half of the Colts game. Again, if he did tell the guy to deflate the balls he's very stupid because the 1.5 games at the end of the season where he didn't have the balls like he liked, he was perfectly fine, if not even great. and it was never really proven the balls were deflated at half time, 3 out of 4 variables in the formula were assumed. It's quite ridiculous actually.

Anyway, we're gonna find out real quick how much these balls helped them this year on offense. They probably won't repeat as World Champs, due to heavy losses on D, but the offense is mostly in tact.

 

Careful, Jdang...you may get your fandom questioned for this post.

It's ok, you can join me on the Patriots bandwagon, which is where I was told I should be.

 

I like playing devils advocate. I'm not a blind homer. Too analytical for that.

Unless its' Peyton Manning. Way overrated. Don't like him.

 

I disagree on spygate being an "everybody did it" thing. Goodell sent the league wide memo b/c it was possible that others were doing it, but there had been several complaints sent in about the Pats specifically. There may have been a few others, but the Pats seemed to be the ones to take it the extreme.

Actually, that's the theme on every cheating allegation against the Pats. QBs may have preferences on ball inflation levels outside the parameters, but the most they seem to do is push the limits and hope some get through. It's a whole other level to have an employee steal the balls after the refs check them to change the inflation rate.

As for whether we'll see a big difference in the Pats' TO rate, who knows. Reality is that TO rates tend to fluctuate from year to year. Maybe they get a good year or maybe a really bad one. Either side will point to that as proof, but it could just be the luck of the bounce.

 

Jimmy Johnson has stated several times, a lot of teams did it. The videotaping. Does he have any reason to go out on a limb and indeed name two people who taught him when he first got to the league? The complaints were sent into the league about the Patriots because everyone else stopped, except them. So they deserved to be punished, I'm not saying they didn't. The arrogance of Belichick to read the game rules and interpret it one way, and disregard the NFL's memo which modified the rule somewhat, is what got him in trouble. He thought he was above the memo and Goodell.

I mean, they were not even hiding it. It's during the game, in plain view of everyone. They weren't sneaking this by anyone. It was Belichick sticking his middle finger at Goodell. He lost.

Did the videotaping help? Probably not. It's why they were stupid. I just don't see it as diminishing Brady's accomplishments. I mean:

But you can argue that's when the deflated balls came into play ... lol. Whatevers, I'm not here to change anyones' minds. We're all pawns in this NFL racket anyway.

Turnovers do fluctuate hence I won't form an opinion until at least two years out.

 

Nothing to see here, folks...

 

While they won 69% during the spygate and it went up after spygate, in itself, doesn't prove it didn't help. I mainly call into question how much tendencies, trends, knowledge and other factors were improved because of the acts of spygate and mainly the helmet speaker...not necessarily JUST during the actions, but as a result of information gleaned and evaluated/improved upon after the acts. No way to quantify it, but like everybody on either side of this argument says...if it didn't help, why do it?

You're damn right it f*cking helped...

 

"Pushing the limits" does not equal "over inflation."

 

So, yes, it seems that Rodgers over-inflates balls.

 

Again, you make this claim with the presupposition that the other teams are doing nothing to gain an advantage. Even in the Colts/Pats game, the four football's of the Colts that were tested came in under-inflated. There are reports about many different QBs tampering with balls. Even Brad Johnson tampering with balls in his Super Bowl win (as did the opposing QB, per an agreement they apparently had). Is anyone calling for Johnson to lose his Super Bowl?

Again, the second mic is hearsay, and no one will probably ever know the truth in that.

A lot of this smacks of fans who want so badly for the reason the Patriots have been dominant is that they cheated, not that they were actually better than the team they root for. It's a nice excuse for why your team lost.

 

Brad Johnson = ancient history...I hardly remember his name. If he cheated and got away with it, well then he's a cheat too...it is what it is.

Other teams haven't been caught red-handed pulling the sh*t NE has...to insist otherwise is to blindly defend the Cheatriots.

Has absolutely NOTHING to do with why I think the Dolphins have been mired in mediocrity for several years. There's no need to "want so badly for the reason the Patriots have been dominant," (not saying it's the ONLY reason but it certainly helped) when the evidence is right in front of your face.

And save your crusade about applying this equally to all 32 teams...all 32 teams haven't been investigated numerous times for cheating...the focus at the moment is the Cheatriots, so they (rightfully) catch the ire. Legacy of foul play cemented.

 

This thread has ran it's course.

As fans, would you accept the legacy of cheating for 4 rings. Or no legacy and no rings for your lifetime. This one is tough.

I'm a Giants fan and yes Barry Bonds head blew up to the size of the bay, but I wanted that ring in 2002!!!!!

 

There it is.

All this time I thought you were merely doing your best Johnny Cochran on behalf of Patriots fans everywhere...

 

Well, and I'm playing a little devil's advocate here, the only thing that definitively happened is Spygate. When it comes to the deflated balls, I do question why the Colts balls being under-inflated wasn't a story, and why the NFL couldn't/wouldn't test more than four of theirs.

You're free to believe what you want, but I don't believe that the Patriots were the only team tampering with psi. They may have been the most extreme...But if other teams were playing with balls outside the legal limit, which plenty of evidence suggests, then I just don't see the point in the crucifucation of the Patriots, as other teams were also cheating. And you're being naive if you think most of this furor for many fans isn't driven by a desire to rationalize why the Patriots have been so dominant, and attribute their success to cheating.

 

I'm asking, which would you rather have. I'm not sure. I got my rings with the Giants as I was life long ringless in my sports. Would you want the Dolphins to cheat their way to rings, or just never see them win one before dying. It's a toughie.

 

Cheating's out of the question. Otherwise, why have rules that everyone plays by? Why even call it football?

Why bother having a QB? Just have a robot—a Quartermech—out there with a canon, controlled by a remote operator. I would think a quarterback should have to use his own skills to read a defense, see where the coverage is going and get the ball where it needs to be... on his own.

And why bother having the other team call a defense? Just have their defensive coordinators on your sidelines tickling your balls all game long, as your Quartermech throws touchdown after touchdown. Why even bother game planning, when you can have the other team's exact play selection from actual practice footage?

Why bother even having a game-clock, when you can run the clock with a weather adjusted gameball that can nearly eliminate the chance of dropping it. Just have the ball inside a zippered pouch on the runningback's shoulder. No, better yet: Once your team has the lead with under 7 minutes to go in the game, just kill the clock entirely to 0:00 and give the team an automatic W. Eliminate chance altogether. This way, you don't even have to bother wasting time letting air out of the ball to kill the clock (ktc).

Not really a toughie. I mean, sure, it might be debatable to a Patriots fan given the team's history.