Ok we had a friendly debate yesterday at work about who is your Mt. Rushmore of Baseball of living players.... So can be playing right now or retired but has to be living.....Accused of steroids, greenies, or whatever...if you are living, and played/ing baseball you are game... Readyyyyyy......Go..... For me? 1) Hammer 2) Say Hey 3) The Kid 4) Nolan
I think Mays and Aaron are no brainers. I can see why people wouldn't want Bonds on the Mount but if you take away all the PED stuff he was a better player than Griffey. As far as Pedro goes, I admit I'm biased, so if someone wanted to make an arguement of Clemens, Maddux or Randy Johnson over him I wouldn't have an issue.
Oh...they have to be alive? ugh...then Sub in Clemens. Two pitchers, two hitters. Clemens, Mays, Bonds, Martinez.
Having a lot of trouble with the 4th, but I think I go Bonds, Mays, Clemens, and Randy Johnson. Unless someone can talk me out of Randy.
These numbers are insane.....coupled with him being on ALOT of terrible teams....I like the RJ pick to though... http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ryanno01.shtml
I would never sit here and say bonds was a better player then Griffey. Griffey missed like 5-6 seasons worth of games. He played a much harder and more important defensive position. Bonds had better hand eye coordination but there's no way to know exactly when he started juicing and how much it affected him.
I agree, on top of being a gold glove CF...Griffey was the best natural home run hitter maybe ever. Fact is if he would've juiced he would've hit about 900 home runs IMO because of the fantastic recovery from injuries hgh provides. Non sauce list?? Griffey Mays Nolan Rose (wildcard)
No question CF is a tougher position than LF but Bonds when he was younger was a pretty good LFer himself. Health is important when you factor this stuff in. I do think Bonds is actually underrated as a player because of the PED stuff. People forget just how good he was before his "PED years". If I have time maybe I will look at their numbers closer.
Bonds was a 20 hr 50 steal guy before the PED stuff. I just wont dismiss the PED stuff. i wouldnt put Peyton Manning in the HOF if he got caught juicing why would I put Barry Bonds on a baseball Mount Rushmore?
Why are we so quick to say Griffey didn't juice? Fact is, everyone from this era is suspect. Everyone. Just look at all the steroid users from the Seattle clubhouse in the 90s. Notice how Mr. Griffey was damn durable during his days in Seattle, hardly missing any games except half a season for a broken wrist in 1995, and 1994 he leads the league in Home Runs despite only playing 111 games (strike) with 40 homers. And then his body completely breaks down and he starts losing power. And speed. And range.
I don't think Griffey juiced. The signs weren't there. It's very difficult to keep that a secret. Alex Rodriguez gave a boatload of cash to keep people's mouths shut and that didn't work. If A-Rod and Bonds both didn't play with any sort of PED's, they would have still hit over 600 HR's. They're incredible hitters, much like Pujols and Cabrera are, and Griffey was. I have no doubt if healthy, Miguel Cabrera is getting to 600, he turns 32 in 4 days, he has a lot of time to get there.
Babe Ruth Ty Cobb Griffey Nolan Ryan All modern guys: Greg Maddux Derek Jeter Tony Gwynn Rickey Henderson
Well it depends on when you think he started juicing. From 1992 to 1997 he was always over 30. He led the league in 1993 with 46. 1996 he had 42. Most accounts have him starting to juice after 1998. I'd say Pre-1998 Bonds was a better player than Griffey who had power, but wasn't as much of base stealer but that could be due to the league (AL vs. NL). And let me just say I find the NL an abomination by the way
A) Griffey was injured from the minute he came on the scene. He was just always hurt. Part of it was his style of play (both the first two wrist injuries were from crashing in to fences) and partially just bad luck. He missed 653 games from the time he was 19 to 39 (didn't include the last season because he was done). He played 160 games 3 or 4x in his whole career. By default you should stay healthy at least a few years right? B) He had a natural lift in his swing. The homers came rather easily for him. Not that they didn't for Bonds but Bonds had more speed then power especially when he came up. He became a power guy as he grew up and in to his body. People forget Griffey came up at 19 and was going to be a star. Griffey will always be the GOAT for this generation. He, Jeter and Frank Thomas would shock me more then anyone from that era if they juiced. There are certain players I believe do things the right way either because of what they do or because of what they say and do. Some players surprised me far more then others. McGwire was almost washed up in Oakland. Sosa was an average player in Texas. Clemens looked like he might be in decline when he moved on from Boston. Those are signs IMO. Bonds doubling in size from the time he was a rookie was a sign. Sure players get bigger but he went from Griffey sized to Frank Thomas sized. Get real if you think that's legit lol
I can't put Ryan on that list. Ditto for Cobb. Mays and either Ted Williams, Mantle or Koufax are far more deserving
I find the AL an abomination so we are on equal grounds there. I don't care about steals. It's an overrated stat IMO where even good base stealers run in to outs 30% of the time. Unless it's Rickey Henderson, it's useful in fantasy baseball, situational baseball and not much else. It's a resume builder. Griffey was a plus base runner which is far more important to me. While Bonds played a good LF, especially when he was younger, Griffey played CF which is the premier defensive spot after C and SS. The problem with Bonds career is exactly what you said...no one knows when the steroids started for sure. Therefore it's impossible to put a timeline and accurately assess his career pre and post steroids. My personal opinion of Bonds is that he was a schmuck. He would have been in the HOF without juicing IMO. Guy had ridiculous hand eye coordination. I think ego drove him to juice because he needed to be the HR king. Because he wanted to make sure he was as good as his dad Bobby but even more so as good as his godfather, Willie Mays.
Bonds averaged 30 HRs per year up until 1999 when he supposedly started PEDing. This narrative that Bonds wasn't a HR hitter before he took PEDs is completely false. Bonds also led the NL in slugging % 3 times during that time and had a OPS of over 1.000 for 8 straight years. Bonds also had a WAR of 87.8 from 1989 to 1999 compared to Griffey's 70.5. So let's not pretend that Bonds wasn't just as good perhaps even better then Griffey during the non PED years. And why would you put Bonds in the baseball Mount Rushmore? Because FinYank said PEDs didn't matter so if you don't factor it in he was the better player.
Look we really don't know who did what and when they did it. And most importantly we truly don't know what effects PEDs really have on players. How many random nobodies have been caught with them and we make jokes saying "he should get his money back" or "must not have took the right stuff". I'm not saying PEDs don't help we simply don't know how much. Who's to say that if Arod or Bonds didn't take PEDs they wouldn't have had similar careers. There are certain guys I don't think took PEDs but I wouldn't be shocked if it came out they did. I personally know certain players that did take PEDs but it has never come out in public that they did. Jose Canseco has said there are players in the HOF who have took PEDs in the past. We just don't know. It's a slippery slope.
When did Bonds get busted for steroids? I have never heard another player accusing him of it.....only media people saying they suspect it. I think he may have dabbled, but have never heard of anyone having any proof unlike Clemmons and co.