Merged: Ahahaha. Once a cheat, always a cheat / DeflateGate

Tampering anyone?? No? OK..

Saw this article last night too.. Can't do anything by just shake my head.

 

Shula and I were talking about costs of inflating the balls with nitrogen. And I said this jokingly. If you read a few posts back you can see that.

he asked why they dont fill the balls with nitrogen. i said costs. he said it's cheap. I said so are league ball boys. (see original)


then you actual advice mallard it.

 

I just cracked the case. Through my own investigation I found out exactly what happened. The ball boy took the footballs into the bathroom to take a pssssss. So, there you have it, mystery solved. You're welcome.

 

only tracked fumbles lost, not total, also, no special teams, also, no dome teams, even on the road.

 

Why would you track special teams? Do punters use the kicking balls or the regular balls? If they use the kicking balls, then those would always be inflated to the higher PSI. If they use the regular balls, then you'd have to separate punt returns out of the special team numbers. The bottom line is, you can clearly see that the Patriots numbers drastically changed in 2007. Before that, they were right in line with the rest of the league. Since then, excepting 2013 with one game with 6 fumbles that skewed that season, they have beat the league averages in crazy fashion. Players always regress to around league norms after leaving the Patriots.

Please don't give me the "coaching" excuse. Players don't magically forget everything they supposedly learned in NE, after they leave NE.

 

Sadly, while we do have all this evidence to suggest malfeasance, we do not (yet) have undeniable proof of their having done anything.

They will likely skate by as the league yet again turns a blind eye and likely keep the tainted record books after only having applied a bandaid to the rules.

 

That link I posted about the Pats being really good at not fumbling is bunk. My bad for not reading it carefully. Doesn't look like there's much there. So yeah, they should probably be punished. But I'm not sure there's much evidence that it's giving them a significant advantage. I think the Pats' success has mostly to do with Brady being really good, the oline being really good, Gronk (in recent years), and Bellichick (his aggressiveness compared to the rest of the league, his strategy with draft picks and free agency).

 

has anyone posted any language that states that the teams are responsible to keep the ball between 12.5 and 13.5 til the final snap of the game?

cause if there is no language that states that, and they didn't purposely stick the needle in the ball, then they didn't cheat..

12.5 is allowed, weather does what it does, not the teams fault..

 

One of the reasons I think the "glove doesn't quite fit".

Loopholes will be found to exonerate.

 

You can check my previous post on this (post #1014) where I show how the rule seems to distinguish between "proper ball" and "playable ball". It looks like teams must furnish a "playable ball" throughout the game, but if for some reason none have 12.5-13.5 psi, then the refs can use the "best available ball" as a "playable ball". So technically no, they don't have to keep the ball at 12.5-13.5 psi. At least that's how I interpreted it.

 

Correction, COLD weather does what it does. The temperature that day was near 50 degrees, so I dont buy the atmosphere excuse for a second.

 

That's an excellent point that I haven't seen anyone bring up. Although I think I saw somewhere that they didn't reflate the same 12 but used another 12 balls in the second half. Regardless if those 12 didn't deflate at a similar rate it would support the theory that something other than just the cold effected the balls in the first half.

 

Yeah, its called a person with an air releasing device.

 

The NFL's game operations manual states:

 

It's what I've been saying all along, in regards to Deflategate. And people kept telling me, "The Colts balls were still in the range, so the Patriots cheated!!!"

 

Not so fast.

The data holds.

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.co...e-new-england-patriots-fumble-rate-since-2000

 

because if the balls are different, then the fumble rates would different.

are the patriots abnormally low on special team fumbles compared to the rest of the league? special teams are always a bit higher than offensive fumbles, but the data can be compared to the rest of the league.

 

I appreciate you directing me to that post, it only backs my point on this..

lets talk ''playable ball'' and the context of the rule, your interpretation is different then how I read it.

see to me playable ball means one that is not wet or muddy..

so my point stands, once at 12.5 there is nothing in the rules that say the team is responsible and must account for deflation cause by weather, and quite frankly its a ridiculous notion to suggest they do..

they give all the team their guidelines, brady chooses 12.5, whatever deflation that comes after that by weather is not his problem.

 

its like saying since the field got wet or muddy due to the conditions, they must pause the game to re-sod the field.

not to mention the NFL prohibits altering the football after the refs approve them, i posted it a few minutes ago

 

I think "best available ball" is still the more general concept. What if all balls available are wet or muddy? Your interpretation would suggest there are no playable balls left, while mine says they'll use whatever is best.

 

This might have some merit actually. Recall the lab that dunked it in water and it lost air pressure (because the leather got wet, expanded etc.).

Tom Brady likes pee on his balls.

 

The melodious voice of reason is so soothing to me right now.

Which is why I asked FinD if the lines need to be repaired whenever they're marred by someone's foot, since the rules specify that they must be 4 inches wide. I, of course, got no answer. But the rules are the rules, right? If they are the rules at the beginning of the game, they don't stop being the rules during the game, right??

I believe that is referring more to balls that get physically damaged, e.g., scratches, grooves, etc.

 

I meant psssss, as in air escaping, not urinating. But I`m sure you knew that .

 

to many esses in psssss threw us off.

 

Resnor.. the point that so many have made still remains.. if the loss in psi is greater than 1, then it doesn't matter if the Colts' footballs were at 13.5 psi when initially checked. That one point really suggests something else other than natural deflation was going on.

It refers to any ball that is not a "proper ball". What is a "proper ball"? It doesn't say explicitly, but the best guess is one that doesn't satisfy Section 1 of that rule, so any ball that doesn't satisfy any of the specs for whatever reason.

More importantly, for both you and dj, IF you assume that "playable ball" really is implicitly defined as any ball that is not wet or muddy, then I think you are arguing against yourselves. Why? One of two possibilities:

1) Either that means a ball need not satisfy any specs listed other than that it is not wet or muddy, which means for example a totally punctured ball is fine, or..

2) All specs must be satisfied + that the ball is not wet or muddy. If that's the case, then the sentence at the end of Rule 2 is problematic for your argument because it says teams must furnish playable balls at all times. So, if you choose this option, you're arguing against yourself because that means teams must make sure 12.5-13.5 psi must be satisfied at all times.

In any case, the point is "best available ball" is not only the more general concept but allows referee discretion in case weird things happen, so I stand by my interpretation.

 

I can`t, for the life of me, figure out why theres so much debate on this issue regarding scientific reasons on how the balls lost air. Its quite easy to figure out actually. SOMEONE, not SOMETHING ,released air from the balls when they were being transferred from the referees room to the field. Climate? nope. Air temperature fluctuation? nope. Friction from "prepping" the balls? LOL, nope. Locker room attendant releasing the air in habitual form at the direction of Brady and in full acknowledgement of Belichick? Bingo.We have a winner.

I`m not about to believe a person( who`s a known lying cheater) who claims he has no idea whatsoever how the balls became underinflated then becomes a genius on the subject a short time later.

Also, I`m not about to believe a QB who claimed in the past that he likes the balls a bit underinflated, and who looked like the cat who ate the mouse at a press conference, only to later say he acted that way because his feelings were hurt.

I know this is not an actual criminal case , but if I was a media member in that press room that day I wouldve said to Brady " Tom just to clear your name and get this nonsense over with, would you submit to a public lie detector test just to,you know, put this issue behind you and get on with the super bowl - I`ll set it up just give me the word".
What do you think Ol`Tommy would`ve said?

 

Without proof of someone tampering with the balls, and physically letting air out, then I don't see what difference if it's 1 or 1.5.

The rules state that it is the responsibility of the referees to identify a non-playable ball, and attempt to procure a replacement for it. That could be any ball that falls below any of the stated rules/specifications. It changes nothing about my stance. If balls deflate naturally, there is no recourse provided for the team itself to replace the ball. The rules specifically state:

So, if a ball becomes gouged, or deflated, or wet, or muddy, or whatever, it's up to the referees to switch it out.

 

I find it funny that several team officials are chiming in with PFT and saying that 90 seconds is more than enough time to deflate the footballs.

Exactly what I said. I said I could do it in half that time. Sure enough, one league guy says he managed it in 40 seconds and another league guy says he managed it in 56 seconds.

They even joked about having enough time to go ahead and take a leak after all.

 

Oh ok, sorry. Thats just how it sounds when air escapes an object though. I was trying to drive home the point.

 

Seems like 90 seconds is plenty in case anyone was doubting it.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/28/its-easy-to-quickly-deflate-a-football/

 

Yes, it's the ref's job to switch it out. I agree that if natural deflation was the cause the Patriots are only technically breaking a rule (Section 1) but it's not really their fault. And indeed the NFL is looking for evidence of tampering, so this is even in practice not the problem.

I think your first sentence says it all. Whether the difference between 1 and 1.5 is big or small can't be determined unless you know what kind of measurement you made AND what the properties of the physical system you are measuring are. In this case, we've heard that you can start at ~70 degrees and get 1 psi loss if the outside temperature is ~50. But for 2 psi loss, you need ~90 degrees. So in practice, there is a big difference between 1 and 2 (and 1.5 is somewhere inbetween). Also, Belichick flat-out denied heating the balls before the refs checked them, so 1 psi difference is a big deal.

 

This exact topic is on the front page of todays New York Daily News. A columnist actually bought 12 footballs, inflated them to to 13 pounds, then put them in a bag and went into the mens room. He took out each ball one by one and deflated them for approximately 2 seconds each , he then put the balls back in the bag, unlocked the door and walked out. It took him exactly 40 seconds. He then did it again and purposely dropped a few and bobbled a few to simulate an actual possibility of not doing it cleanly and that whole ordeal took just 77 seconds. Add all this to the attendant becoming a professional at it since he does it so damn often and the answer is clear what happened and how.

 

Just a question here

if the rules specifically state that altering the ball in any way is illegal why is it ok for the staff to rub the smooth off tbe balls before the game?

 

In the officials rule book it define not playable as wet or muddy...really the suggestion that the rule infers to keeping pressure between 12.5 to 13.5 is silly to me..that's not an expectation that is at all reasonable..that's why they give them the variance...be done with it...the rule book is literally telling you that playable is not wet or muddy..so.

The biggest question is what CK is bringing up, and that's the 2nd belicek presser, and why he went out of his way.

 

do you know all of your followers on Twitter?

 

I think that's only kicking balls, since those are brought by and handled by the officials. The team balls (for the offense) were already rubbed down or so before having them checked by the officials so you can have separate rules for them (not that I like the current rules!).

 

its after they are inspected, they can do anything they want to the ball beforehand. They could drill holes in it if they wanted to, but of course those won't make it through inspection.

 

No, the rule book does NOT define not playable as wet or muddy. The rule book defines wet or muddy as not playable. Those are two completely different things. What you are saying is that EVERY not playable ball is wet or muddy. So, a dry, punctured ball is playable? No.

The rule book is saying that there are specs that when satisfied define a "proper ball". It also says a playable ball must be dry. It also says if they can't find a proper ball, the refs use the best available ball. So, yes "playable" does refer to the best available ball, where "best" is left up to the discretion of the ref.

And again, your interpretation means if every ball is wet, they can't play the game. Well, I've seen refs dry the ball as much as they can and let play resume, even though the ball is wet.

 

Actually, we're both wrong about the wet and muddy part.

"In case of rain or a wet, muddy, or slippery field, a playable ball shall be used at the request of the offensive team’s center.The Game Clock shall not stop for such action (unless undue delay occurs)."

wet and muddy is referring to the field, not ball..

 

brad...come on man..they mean if the ball gets wet or muddy from the conditions,the center has the option to replace it..