Merged: Ahahaha. Once a cheat, always a cheat / DeflateGate

So, based on everything you're arguing for, do you believe that other teams would meet these criteria? I certainly don't. Like I said, my opinion is that teams get there balls inflated to the preference of the QB, then toss them out on the sideline to be used during the game, and never give another thought to them until the next week, when they get them inflated again.

Agree to disagree. I don't see any evidence of tampering, and I don't see rules forbidding teams to allow nature to take it's course on the pressure of the air in the balls. You think it's cheating, fine. I'm not going to change your mind. The only thing that will be disappointing to me in all this, however, is if the NFL does nothing to change the rules around the balls. The NFL should probably take responsibility for the all the balls that are used in the games, and leave the individual teams out of it. Teams can request the psi of the balls, and the league can have a crew to maintain the balls throughout each and every game, to insure that no ball ever falls below the standard, due to environmental issues.

 

You're basing your conclusion on an unsupported hypothesis instead of the facts we have.

 

No idea. That isn't relevant here. We haven't seen anyone else accused of this by opponents.

We don't need evidence of tampering here. We have evidence that the Patriots used illegal balls. Whether they tampered with them or not, they gained an advantage that is not permitted.

Why just limit an obsessive amount of oversight to just this? Why not check cleat length between every play? Why not check gloves between every play? Why not assign officials throughout the stadium to look for people illegally videotaping? At what point do you just expect teams to follow the rules?

 

Phrasing

 

The refs only looked at the balls because of a complaint that was made...or that's how the story goes. You are literally taking a phrase "at all times" which isn't said in relation to the initial check of the balls, but in relation to how the balls are to be available during the game. That note is under the "Ball Supply" section, not the "Ball Dimensions" section of the rule book. A "playable ball" refers to a ball the meets the criteria set forth in the "Ball Dimensions" section of the rule book. In that section, it says that the ball is to be checked by the ref, and held in the referees possession until given to the ball boys, just prior to the start of the game. I'm not inventing anything. I'm reading the rule. You are making up that the inspection process is continuous, something that the rule does not state. The rules give a specific time for the inspection, and give specific rules that the balls must meet at that inspection. There are no specified rules for after the balls begin to enter play. You are free to assume whatever you want, but don't sit there saying that I'm inventing anything, when all I'm doing is taking the rules for what they do or do not say.

 

Again, if they met the rules specified, at the specified time of the check-in, then the balls were not illegal. The rules do not specify that the check-in process is ongoing. They have a specific time for the balls to be checked in, and specific measurements for the balls at that check-in. Anything after that is simply assumptions on your part.

 

The rules of the game aren't ongoing throughout the game???

One of the most perverse defenses I've heard.

 

The rules of the game aren't ongoing throughout the game???

One of the most perverse defenses I've heard.

Regardless, the league has inherently acknowledged this not to be rule (which would be absolutely bizarre), by investigating this.

 

O rly?

Which facts? The fact that Patriots inflated the balls, or the fact that the refs inflated the balls? Or, the fact that the weather was in the 50's, or the fact that the weather was in teh 40's? Or the fact that the balls met the initial check-in requirements? Or the fact that there are no rules specifying how teams are to store balls during cold weather games? Or the fact that there are no rules in place for expecting teams to manage the size/psi of balls during the game?

What is my unsupported hypothesis? My hypothesis is that the balls were checked in at 12.5psi at the pre game check, and that they deflated through natural processes afterward. Your hypothesis is what?

 

You really love to twist statements, don't you. You can read the rule book. There is zero in the rule book that describes what should happen with the balls, in regards to meeting regulations, following the check-in that deems them to be playable.

I'm out.

 

You're conflating so many things.

The facts ARE:

The pats had 11 of 12 balls not regulation. Balls they were responsible for. That, for the billionth time, is all that matters.

 

I'm not sure that is true. The NFL statement on deflate gate said:

They are obviously placing some credence on whether it was done intentionally or not.

 

not even the patriots are making the arguement you are trying to make. Everyone agrees the ball condition was a rule violation. The only thing in question is if it was intentional or not

 

You're lost. Go back and read this thread in it's entirety.

 

Again, the NFL has inherently acknowledged that the regulations apply during the game. If they didn't, then the NFL wouldn't be investigating this, they would just say "the Patriots followed the rules".

 

Sounds like something Mr. Kraft would say.

 

How does that contradict what I said? The NFL said the balls were non-compliant.

Absolutely, whether they gained an unfair advantage intentionally or because of ignorance is important when determining an adequate punishment.

 

Nearly 50 freakin degrees that day. Not 7,or 16 ,or 24, or -3 ... but 50 !!!!! Guess what folks, the atmosperic temperature did not let air out of the footballs. I spoke to a friend just now who works in a lab that does extensive pressure tests of all kinds and, even though he never tested the air pressure in a football hes very satisfied with the fact that a difference in air temperature of approx. 70 degrees( in this case indoors) to approx. 50 degrees( in this case outdoors) would not have that kind of effect. He says the only way the air temps would make that kind of difference was if the object ( football, in this case) went from an environment of approx. 80 dgrees then moved to an environment of appox. 32 dgrees, then it would have a pressure fluxuation of the numbers that are talked about.


My opinion ? The Patriots are lying con-artists. And my opinion wont change if, or should I say when, the league finds them to be the utmost honest and loyal franchise in the NFL. How dare anyone come between Kraft and his good pal Goodell.

 

I say would conveniently ignorant.

 

.....and if all the balls were prepped the same way and subject to the identical climates then why was one ball different then the rest? Maybe that one ball had thicker pigskin then the others.

 

Good point. We shouldn't rule that out

 

He had the nerve to say, with a straight face, that squeezing the football is not part of his prepping routine. What a lying piece of garbage he is. And if he does NOT squeeze them then how does he know he prefers them under-inflated.?

 

And the elephant in the room, that has only been addressed by FinD and me, is the Pats turnover ration since 2007. Brady spearheaded the rule change of allowing the visiting team to bring their own footballs. Since that rules change the Patriots turnover ratio has been so good it's statistically impossible.

Again, more circumstantial evidence that some here want to ignore, but to me it's just more proof that they cheat.

 

Jackson denies this now, does he not?

 

Pats- 11 of 12 deflated
Colts- 0 of 12 deflated

How's that happen? You would think at least 1 Colts football would be deflated due to weather... Oh yea, Colts aren't convicted Cheaters either.

 

I tried to stay out...I really tried.

Do you KNOW that no Colts balls were deflated? No. You know that their balls were still between 12.5-13.5psi. Doesn't mean they weren't deflated from where they were initially. And it could also mean that they kept their balls covered on the heated benches, while the Patriots left theirs out in the elements.

I may post again, but not to argue about cheating/not cheating. There is so much conflicting information out there right now, and people keep saying things as if they are gospel truth.

 

Yes. Yes we do in fact know that the Colts did not have deflated footballs, because when they were checked they were not under regulation. This is bordering on insanity.

 

I'm just saying you would think at least ONE Colts football would be deflated considering ELEVEN of the Pats were deflated and the weather played such a huge part on the footballs, I also don't think the Colts had a special heating room on their sideline in Foxboro (NE's stadium), but, I'll defer to Fin D... He's got it under control.

 

Ok, again, WHAT WAS THE INITIAL PSI, AND WHAT WAS THE HALFTIME PSI OF THE COLTS BALLS?

Just because they were still within the 12.5-13.5 DOES NOT mean that they didn't deflate. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. If the Colts balls were at 13.5 initially, and 12.5 at halftime, THEY WOULD STILL BE IN THE RANGE, BUT WOULD HAVE DEFLATED. Sorry for yelling.

If the Colts balls didn't deviate from the initial check-in, then the next step would be to see if they stored the balls differently than the Patriots during the game. I.E., did the Colts leave their balls covered on a heated bench, and did the Patriots leave theirs uncovered in the elements?

Can you not see that the Colts balls still being in the 12.5-13.5 DOES NOT mean that they did not deflate? Deflating does not automatically mean that they are below the range.

 

I thought you were inferring that whether it was intentional or not wouldn't matter in term in terms of the punishment.

 

IT DOESN'T MATTER!

It only matters what the psi was when checked.
It only matters what the psi was when checked.
It only matters what the psi was when checked.
It only matters what the psi was when checked.
It only matters what the psi was when checked.
It only matters what the psi was when checked.
It only matters what the psi was when checked.
It only matters what the psi was when checked.
It only matters what the psi was when checked.

 

It does matter, because you are saying that the Colts balls didn't deflate. You don't know if that is true or not. I'm not arguing about legality of it. I'm saying, that IF the majority of the Pats balls were down 1psi, which is the latest report, it would be helpful to know if the Colts balls also showed a deviation of 1psi. If they do, we can then surmise that it occurred naturally. If they didn't show a decrease of 1psi, then it should be looked at to see if the Colts kept their balls covered on the heated bench, and see if the Patriots followed suit. It's about figuring out what happened, is it not? Or is it simply a witchhunt, to try to take down the Patriots?

 

arrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhh.

The Colts didn't deflate their footballs passed the regulation limit. Its not against the rules to deflate the goddamned ball. Its against the rules to deflate them past a certain goddamned point.

 

Nobody said the Colts' balls didn't deflate. It is irrelevant. All that we need to know if that their balls were >12.5.

 

Ok, but that statement is different from :

We are definitely looking at this from two different perspectives. You don't care the reason they were deflated. I do.

 

Deflated passed illegal.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, because there is no reason on the planet to care if the Colts had deflated footballs that were still with in the legal limit. It just doesn't make any freaking sense that you harping on something so inane.

There's a limit, the Colts didn't have footballs past that limit. End of story. Period.

 

I see your point, but if the Colts used a metric inflator and a basement room, then your hypothetical would have to account for the moon phase, or the results could be skewed towards the apex. There for, you can see how this changes everything. Vias via you're wrong. Plus, there is no way Mr. Gisele Bündchen could lie. It isn't allowed.