This is exciting to me personally.

That pocket last year was a bear-trap right from the snap.

 

Whilst I love Tanne running more and moving around more and being more of a dual threat, I don't think this issue is so simple. It's funny, we bash Sheman and rightfully so, for many reasons, but maybe he realized that Tanne needed to develop certain skills of a true pocket passer. He knew he was raw and needed development. Maybe trying to do so with him, is what gives him the ability to be the DUAL threat QB like he's been as of late. We'll never know.

As for the dual threat QB issue in general, I think it's a bit overrated. I love to see it. I love what it does to the opposing D, but being a great, smart QB in the pocket is much more important. The type of movement in the pocket, the ability to sense pressure and take those critical few steps up or to the side to bye time to make the big play, the ability to roll out and keep your eyes downfield and throw with accuracy, the ability to look off safeties, etc is much more important. The running QB is great, but I think it's short lived. Once they get older and their bodies start getting older and after inevitably taking some hard shots from the big, strong D players, it will take it's toll. I don't think that's possible to sustain for many years. There are QBs who have had some longterm success being mobile QBs like a Steve Young type, etc, but I think they will even tell you that being a very proficient pocket QB is fundamental and essential. Look at guys like Manning or Brady, etc. Would you like to have them or a Vick or a Kapernick type as your franchise guy? I would absolutely prefer the former.

Now, Tanne has shown many improvements and positive development of all the aspects of being a great QB. He had to learn a lot of the traditional QB skills behind a historically bad OL, so he couldn't do it as fast as everyone would like, That is certainly understandable given the circumstances and most fans are just impatient, myself included. I truly hope he continues to progress.

So basically, I agree with ya' deej, that it's an element of his game that I love to see and it is something that should continue to be used, but I hardly think it's the best aspect of his improvements. For example, what I was more excited to see was when he avoided pressure and threw that TD to Clay with touch and accuracy. That, imo, is a great example of progression and improvement. JMO.

 

DJ, I found this from another forum that I will not post a link to out of respect for this forum. Unfortunately it didn't have a link it was embedded as a quote like I did here. I did gather it was from an article from the Miami Herald and it was posted on 10-8-2013 in the forum I am talking about. This could be the root of what you are talking about and it looks like Philbin is the culprit but I also remember Sherman making similar comments that I can't seem to find. Either way, I see this as a good thing in the development of an NFL QB as long as they take the "training wheels off" as we have done this year.

 

Go go gadget fist bump!!!

 

Basically they bit the bullet, didn't give him training wheels and forced him to become a pocket passer. I think it's paid off quite well but we will see in second half of the season just how much progressour boy has made.

 

It can be spun any way, I've also seen where Philbin first came to our team and people were asking how much he had to do with the development of Aaron Rodgers and he basically said he had nothing to do with it and he gave credit where credit was due with the person that developed Rodgers and said that Sherman and Zac would be the one's developing Tannehill. That's paraphrased like crazy but that's what he said in a nutshell. Here, I just found this link:
http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thed...herman-and-coaches-to-develop-ryan-tannehill/

Here is some quotes on Sherman on Tannehill.

You can put these things together from the same press conference transcript and argue that Sherman praises Tannehill for staying in the pocket and he criticizes him for having a tendency to leave the pocket and also put that together with Sherman saying "you tell him you need to do this and he does it". But then you also find stuff like Sherman praising him for having a great scramble on a throw to Davone Bess. and in the same transcript you also find this:

All that was from the same transcript, some of it is contradicting but people can use this same material to see whatever they want to see. Nobody knows Tannehill better than Tannehill himself and here is a quote from him when he was introduced to our team.

The bottom line is that Tannehill was not used in the way that he describes his skill set, but now he is being used that way. I definitely think he was coached to stay in the pocket and not use his legs to scramble and use his athleticism to make plays, it makes more sense to think that than to think Tannehill just completely abandoned his own self proclaimed skill set. All I know is that I am glad Lazor is here and and we are finally using RT the way he should be used and I am also glad he learned to be a pocket passer first and foremost. He can do both, it's what he is good at and we have the perfect mix of it now.

If I had to make an educated guess, I would say that Philbin is a head coach that allows the OC and/or QB coach to take the leading role in developing the Qb. So I would put the blame of Tannehill's lack of athleticism his first 2 years on Sherman and Zac Taylor, mainly Sherman and I would say that the reason we see an athletic QB in RT now is because Lazor is the man and he let's RT be RT. With all that being said, I want to reiterate that I am glad everything happened the way it did because I believe RT is better off for it. I think of Sherman like my ex-wife, I hate them both but if it wasn't for them I wouldn't have my daugther and my QB, and I love my daughter and my QB just the way they are.

 

IMO it's paid off and he is better for it because I don't want an injury proned QB like RGIII. I love the fact that Tannehill is a pocket passer and that we have designed plays for him to use his legs and he is very good at that. I don't want RT's first reaction to be to take off running which is exactly what would have happened if he came into the league with the training wheels off. Now I think we have a good pocket passing Qb whose first reaction is to throw the ball, but when he is called upon to run he is amazing at it. Eventually that will turn into RT staying in the pocket going through his progressions and if nothing is there he will scramble while still having the first reaction to make a throw on the run while his WR's get open and if that doesn't happen he will take off running with his God given talent to run.

 

I love your posts but ur waaaay out there. Lazor isn't doing anything magical, this "using RTs skillset" is a result of having a better OL that can block the basic plays. As a coach you're not going to try exotic stuff when you can't even run your staples.

I also think you underestimate the intelligence of Sherm and the DCs he was facing. You propose these simple solutions like the professional coaches you're critiquing have never heard of them. I know you disagree with their approach, so do I at times. But I like to find out what the coaches know that I don't as opposed to assuming I know something they don't.

 

Come on DJ...you know it is so very important to not have a run first QB.When you do you no longer have a QB..you have a Denard Robinson which is great if you need a running back. I am glad that Ryan is a pocket passer first and foremost but I am also really happy that he can throw on the run very accurately as well as pick up huge yards with his legs. Now, working with Marino he is learning how to move up and side to side in the pocket to avoid pressure. Also our OLINE is much, much more talented and I also think Marino has really helped him to have the confidence to know he is the best QB on the field and to have brass balls while playing. Basically, there are so many factors into why Tanny has improved so much and as raw as he was coming out colledge he needed time and experience as well as learning how to best play QB in the NFL and he is finally catching up to the in game experience that some of his peers already had being 4 year starters in colledge. Tanny just gets better and better every game and I for one am very happy that he is both a pocket passer and a read option QB. We get the best of both worlds with him and it all boils down to experience.

 

I agree with you there, Sherm wasn't playing to RTs strengths. For me the real issue is why did he do it and was it the right call? I think that's where we disagree.

 

disappointed it's not a form of cheese?

 

No kidding there were times of panic. What do you think is supposed to happen when you're a young QB, NFL defenders are bearing down on you, and your OC wants you to stay put at all costs despite your instincts telling you to avoid getting walloped? DJ's point is well valid yet some of you keep rejecting it. The only QBs who should be standing tall in the pocket till the pressure arrives are QBs who lack the mobility to do otherwise. If a QB's instinct is to use his feet/athleticism to evade pressure but his coach wants him to do the complete opposite [as was known was the case], then that QB is essentially turning off a switch. He's turning off a switch to act on his instincts. Just because a QB has the instinct to evade pressure, it doesn't mean he'll automatically be great at it. It takes repetition to develop and strengthen passing instincts. That was 2 years with Sherman, if not longer, that Tannehill was denied the ability to develop his instincts under duress and his instincts on how to use his athleticism & mobility as a passer.

For a QB to use his athleticism to buy time and create, it first requires him to feel the pressure and to sense when to run. That allows him to gradually develop his pocket presence, as well as learning where to run, how to run, what to look for downfield when plays break down, etc. If on the other hand your OC wants you to act like your feet are stapled to the ground and wants your eyes locked downfield till the defenders arrives, then you're not developing your pocket presence. You're not learning how to sense pressure. You're simply learning how to be a statue and take a hit. The Packers PRACTICE plays breaking down in order to improve Rodgers' and offense's ability to create on the move. Sherman did the complete OPPOSITE.

 

Um......I'm not saying it was bad on Tanny or anything like that. I'm just trying to get Deej to see that there wasn't a switch in Tanny's head that he can flick on and off, and that Ryan actually struggled with fighting the instinct to get outside the pocket.

For awhile DJ has felt Tannehill lacked the elusiveness to escape pressure and that it didn't come natural to him. I'm saying what looked like awkwardness and indecision was due to Tannehill not only staring in the face of jailbreak after jailbreak, not only dealing with a horrible OC, not only dealing with learning the pro game and pro speed with which its played, but also because he was having to go against is instincts and stay put in the pocket. I thinks those things combined can explain why DJ misdiagnosed Tannehill's potential.

 

Maybe he was just another incompetent retread of a coordinator.

 

Maybe he was right

 

I'm still not 100% convinced that the thrashing tannehill endured in days past under Sherman made him any better presently.

 

IMO last year Tannehill was a better pocket passer than I thought he would be in his second year.

If this year he can combine his ability to stand in the pocket and with his athleticism, then he can be more complete passer.

 

I see what you're saying, but the guy also took way more hits standing in the pocket than any of us would have thought survivable.

 

he survived.

 

I have never seen or heard any evidence that Sherman told Tannehill to never leave the pocket or scolded him in any meaningful way for doing so (except perhaps if there was an obvious guy open and he was just bailing out of panic). Tannehill ran in college under Sherman, including designed runs and read option plays. He ran at a pretty similar rate under Sherman here, including designed runs and read option runs. and he was pretty effective with it (6.0 ypc). He's running a bit more this year than he did his rookie year, but not by much (3.9 times per game as compared to 3.1 times per game as a rookie). He has been uncommonly good as a runner this year (7.9 ypc), but much of that is simply a matter of better blocking and a better run threat from the RBs. Some is due to his own improvement and the game simply seeming to slow down for him. I don't see anything unusual or atypical there. I think it is the same thing as what caused his rushing effectiveness to imrpove so much from his junior to senior year in college (from 1.5 ypc to 5.3 ypc) and from his rookie year to his second year (4.3 ypc to 6.0 ypc).

Personally, I would have liked to have seen Ryan run more his first two years, but I'd still liek to see him run more. Anytime you are getting 7.9 yds per attempt and a bunch of big plays by doing something, you should probably keep doing it. I think as he gets more and more comfortable and the game slows down more for him, we'll see more controlled runs where he sees he can easily avoid pressure and pick up the first down, but we'll also see more scrambles where he keeps his eyes downfield and ultimately throws to an open receiver on a "broken" play. Either way, it's all good.

 

I don't think any coach would tell a QB not to evade pressure, nor do I think a QB would ever listen to silly advice like that. What I do believe is that RT was coached to go thru his progressions before looking to escape and in many cases he never got the opportunity to do so. Todd or Raf can probably speak to this better than I can but I felt like RT struggled to move in the pocket while continuing his reads and tracking his WRs, he would roll out of the pocket vs climbing or shuffling, I view that as a weakness in his game not a coach imposed restriction. He seems to have gotten better with that but how much is him and how much is the vastly superior pass pro?

I haven't noticed a significant jump in rollouts this year, but there have been far more read option plays. Again tho, how much is Lazor vs Sherman and how much is improved OL play? Tannehill was taking a beating as it was last year so I can understand Sherm not wanting to subject him to even more hits. With much better pass pro and blocking on the gun runs, allowing RT more reps as a runner is a safer bet than it was on 2013 no?

Im not sure how you can say Sherm cost us a playoff trip, it's a shock to me that we were even in the hunt as late as we were, who's to say that running RT more would have had the effect you say? It could easily have led to injury...

Whatever the case I'm glad RT is playing at a high level and imo Sherm deserves at least some credit for turning a raw prospect into a QB who's on the verge of becoming a top 10 player at his position.

 

You think the 2013 team was playoff caliber, one of the top 6 in the conference?

 

And........is'nt the bottom line that it is finally starting to click almost every game and as the season rolls along he and Lazor are starting to really click together..I am so happy that we are finally starting to see a very productive offense to go with our stellar defense..This is What TEAM is all about.....After all, the last 2 years are water under the bridge and Sherman is gone and Lazor is here!! Lastly, Tanny is now out playing Russel Wilson and he still has plenty of ceiling left.

 

Glad you mentioned Wilson, he's been coached the way DJ prefers. Free to take off and use his mobility whenever he's like and he's had a lot of success early. It'll be interesting to see how he and RT progress in the coming years.

 

No, Sherman simply doesn't like his quarterbacks moving around and getting out of the pocket, period, not unless it's a designed call. He doesn't like that it cuts the field in half. Cuchulainn has already pointed out how he butted heads with Brett Favre because of this very issue, and Favre certainly wasn't in need of "developing" at the time. Tannehill could've still developed as a pocket passer first and foremost while also being allowed to develop his instincts as a mobile QB when the pressure gets on him. Nobody is saying he had to do it the RG3 way. He could've gone about it the Andrew Luck way which emphasizes progressions first and then using your feet when either nothing's there or a sack is imminent.

 

I just dont see why people take objection to this, as if an OC isn't capable of doing what we're talking about. He was fired, was he not? Clearly he wasn't going about things the best way possible. How many moving pockets did Sherman dial up to help allay some of that excessive defensive pressure? -almost none? If Sherman himself refused to incorporate that into the offense [because it cut the field in half wah wah wah], then why would he support Tannehill doing so under improvisation?

 

I completely get wanting your young 1st rd QB of the future to develop his game from the pocket. Forcing it during a game is a bad idea though.

I mean Michael Jordan used to practice shooting on a smaller rim, he didn't demand a smaller rim during the damn game.

In the end, if developing Tannehill was the real goal then it was, seemingly, successful actually. The thing is, winning, could have been more important then it was and running him 4-5 times a game wasn't going to hurt his development anyway.