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Ross Should Have Let Philbin Go...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Apr 28, 2014.

  1. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    ...at least, that's what I was coming to think today the more I considered it.

    Now, I should preface this by saying that I'm not a 'if they blink, fire them', type of guy. I haven't had a problem with Philbin staying on up until today, and honestly, I'm not 100% certain. Something occurred to me though and the more I turn it over, the more I think that maybe letting Philbin go this offseason would have been the right decision.

    There are likely tons of reasons you may agree or disagree with that move, but here one fact which begins to seem more and more significant to me. Do with it what you will.

    Ross had to tell Philbin to fire Sherman.

    For now, please put to the side any opinions you may have about Sherman, or any evaluation of his performance. Here is why I feel this is central:

    Outside of off-field/personal issues, an owner should never have to tell a head-coach to do anything. A HC should be capable to do what's best for the team, especially concerning his coaching staff. A HC should be responsible for hiring and, if it should ever be necessary, firing his coaching staff.

    Since we know that Ross told Philbin to fire Sherman we have to consider three possibilities:

    1 - Sherman was good and Ross was wrong. Philbin's decision is then a matter stick to his guns and sacrifice his job (if it comes to that) or fire the guy to keep his job.
    2 - Sherman was bad, Ross is right, Phibin knew it but would have stuck with Sherman for personal reasons to the detriment of the team.
    3 - Sherman was bad, Ross is right, Philbin didn't know it, and either realised it late or never came to realise it, and for Philbin this equates to point 1.

    If we don't know whether Sherman is bad or good then we either have to trust Ross or Philbin:

    1 - If Philbin is right, and Sherman was good, then Ross has potentially hurt the team if Sherman's replacement, Lazor, isn't as good or doesn't work with Philbin or the players as well as Sherman did. However, we still have a scenario where Ross doesn't trust Philbin's judgement, or else, trusts someone else's (or his own) judgement more. Shaky ground, he probably should let Philbin go.

    2 - If Philbin is wrong, and Sherman is poor (whether seen or not), then Ross has helped the team but exposed a lack of vision or bad priorities (helping a friend = good, to the detriment of the team = bad). Ross here couldn't trust Philbin to do the right thing. He should let him go.


    Either way, Ross probably should have cleaned house.

    Now, there is also another additional factor to keeping Philbin. Lazor has been brought in. If after this year Ross wants to get rid of Philbin what happens to Lazor if he is decent? Does Ross just dump Philbin and tell any potential new HC that he has to keep and work with Lazor, Hickey etc.? Tricky. Better option, if he is unsure of Philbin, is to clean house.


    So that's that. Not nice work, but necessary?
     
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  2. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Sorry but I read the title and decided to skip the entire post. Good job, good effort.
     
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  3. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You're right. Philbin should have been let go, and I'm not sure there is a good argument contrary besides the idea he deserves a specific amount of time.

    I don't think you even need to get to the Mike Sherman stuff- Philbin doesn't really bring anything to the table as a head coach. He's defers the X's and O's stuff to the coordinators, he's not particularly good as a motivator, he's got no idea what is going on in the locker room, he's not particularly good in terms of game management(clock, challenges, etc.). You don't have to check all the boxes to be successful as a head coach, but the one thing the guy really brings to the table is basically assistant head coach stuff.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    The part you're not considering, is that Sherman was Philbin's mentor & friend. He likely brought in Sherman because of Sherman's success as an NFL HC with GB and fit him into a position.

    I can forgive Philbin for having a blind spot for a lifelong friend and mentor. The fact that he went out and got Lazor & Benton, tells me that's all this was....a blindspot.

    When you consider how long Shula stuck with Olivadatti (who was considerably worse at DC then Sherman was at OC) and JJ sticking us with Wannstedt, this is easily the least egregious coordinator mistake we've seen.
     
  5. PENNSYLVANIADOLPHAN

    PENNSYLVANIADOLPHAN Well-Known Member

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    You can make an argument for firing him to end the season. The loss to the Jets was enough to have him fired. However, he is here right now. The team has at least improved it's win/loss record in his first two seasons. Coaches can improve and he isn't that bad of a Head Coach anyway. So we'll see what happens this season.
     
  6. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    True. I had considered it but not mentioned it since the post was long enough and I was trying to keep it to reasons why he should have gone, not why he should have been forgiven/kept.

    The personal side of things as a temporary blindspot is the best defence, I think, and perhaps the best hope for turn around in that having dealt with the issue things move forward. However, the scary thing about this comes in when you move from theory to actuality. If Sherman was as bad as everyone thought he was, that's a heck of a blindspot for Philbin. If he wasn't, then that's worse, because it means the source of the trouble didn't come from Sherman, and that, potentially, leaves everyone else with Phiblin, as HC, being the primary target.

    Bottom line - we hope really hard that with the blindspot/voluntary weakness gone everything improves.
     
  7. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Yes, although this is a performance analysis, and what struck me today was that performance aside, based on trust issues, Ross should have let Philbin go. How do you keep someone who doesn't see/won't fire someone you feel certain is a massive weak point on your team. From an owner's perspective, surely the call has to be let him go and bring in a HC you can hopefully trust. I can only imagine that as Fin D said, Ross believed this to be a personal connection issue and so has forced Philbin to make this move, trusting Philbin otherwise.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think a very big part of the justification that Philbin may have gave himself for our woes was talent being a poor match for his schemes. Which it absolutely was. Consider that Philbin wanted Martin replaced and Cogs gone. Had that happened before the start of the season, we're likely talking about a playoff team....with Sherman & Philbin & Turner.

    I know everyone just assumes a coach should change their schemes to match the players they have, but the coaches that can do that successfully are few and far between...and they aren't the only good coaches. There have been many successful system coaches.

    Also factor in who he replaced those guys with.
     
  9. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    i thought this part is behind us
     
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  10. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member

    Shoulda, coulda, woulda doesn't really matter in April of the NFL year... I agree with some of the points made, but at this time, Does it really matter?? No...but nice work and explanation of your thoughts...
     
  11. P h i N s A N i T y

    P h i N s A N i T y My Porpoise in Life

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    I thought so too, but I thought we were forced to move on like 3-4 months ago. Saban should have chose Brees as well.
     
  12. Dolphins1Beatles

    Dolphins1Beatles Ziggy Stardust

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    Over and done with now anyway. This will be the important 3rd season and if they fail once again he should be gone. We've seen coaches make the playoffs in less than 3 seasons. And really, the Dolphins had the playoffs handed to them on a silver platter last year. 9-7 was good enough (some years 10-6 teams miss the playoffs in a tough season)...they needed to win just one of the last two against teams that were below .500, one of which they had already dominated on the road. They blew it and finished 10th in the AFC, and would've missed the playoffs even if it were 8 teams instead of 6.

    Just hope that they won't blow it yet again in 2014.
     
  13. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Understand that this discussion is hardly new. I just hadn't considered the owner/trust side of things.

    Shoulda/coulda/woulda is pretty much the whole offseason, right? :)
     
  14. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

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    Its not important what Ross or Philbin thought its where this team is going that is important.


    my question is what will likely happen if we have a record of 5- 11 or 8-8 ?

    if we win and we look good then there isn't anything worth talking about.

    I really like Wanny better then Philbin but I don't know just how good Philbin is until we get our oline and offense fixed.
     
  15. Unlucky 13

    Unlucky 13 Team Raheem Club Member

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    Not firing Philbin helps the team's image long term If/when he's fired after this season, his third on the job, no one will say that its wrong or ask why, and Ross will have gained a little credibility, and might then be able to hire a qualified candidate.
     
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  16. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just curious as to what brought on this epiphany? I thought I missed something and kept waiting for the aha moment in the OP.

    Option three is that Sherman wasn't a complete train wreck the way fans make him out to be. Yes he had gotten stale in his play calling but there is more to being an OC then game day play calling and there are likely aspects of the job that Sherman was quite good at.


    Philbin had one of the best success rates on challenges in the NFL.
     
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  17. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Wanny was good the first few years. His record as GM was terrible though and that did him in. 11-5, 11-5, 9-7, 10-6 his first four years here. But like a lot of coaches that aren't elite (and even some that are), everything in this league has an expiration date.
     
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  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Wanny was a horrible coach.

    In fact, all of the things that people hated about Sparano, Henning & Sherman, were all things Wanny did and to a larger degree.

    His record was good because the talent on the team was effing stellar. If you have the NFL's leading sacker and rusher and an amazing defense overall...but you miss the playoffs, the problem is coaching. His GMing was horrible that's true, but its proof positive that his success was all the talent that was already here. Jamar Fletcher & Eddie Moore didn't cost us games after all.
     
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  19. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    It wasn't that Ross wanted to fire Sherman, or that he did get fired, it's that Ross had to tell Philbin to fire his coach. I don't see that as ever being a good thing. If Sherman had to go, Philbin should see it before the owner does, whether or not personal connections are strong.

    As per later posts, it seems likely Ross saw Philbin as being too closely tied to Sherman to do the necessary and so helped him out here. Still, the 'epiphany' was that an owner should not have to dictate to his HC on matters like this - rather than simple performance-based should he have stayed, should he have gone analysis for Philbin.

    All of this assuming Sherman should have gone. If not, you have an awkward relationship for the HC where doing the right thing is now jeopardised in favour of pleasing the owner.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm trying to understand how an NFL coordinator who's had success in this league would take a Qb who does certain things well, and not take advantage of them in the gameplan.

    Seems like the cardinal sin..

    I'm not sure how a head coach could want anything to do with it..

    Unless...it's all part of a bigger plan to have the Qb work inside out..

    I don't think so though because we didn't see a change in the 2nd year, despite the Qb getting demolished by a pathetic pass protecting oline..

    It's my #1 question that I'd like to sit down and ask the former coordinator and head coach..
     
  21. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Like i said, then Shula should have been fired for Olividatti.
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I agree. I don't understand Philbin and company. I do not think they are good coaches. I am very happy Jim Turner is no longer a Dolphin. He was not a good NFL offensive line coach. He might have been an amazing college coach, however he just wasn't able to translate it to the NFL.
     
  23. Is there any proof that Ross forced philbin to fire Sherman?
     
  24. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Yeah. I would have preferred firing both and him and ireland. It would have been interesting to see if we could have landed a more highly thought of gm candidate
     
  25. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Several reports indicated that Philbin did not want to fire Sherman. The alleged compromise was that Sherman gets paid for the full term of his contract even though he's been let go.
     
  26. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    My preference was for Ross to bring in a vice president of football operations who would been responsible for the hiring of the GM as well as the head coach. Ross making these decisions makes no sense because he obviously doesn't know the first thing about hiring quality football personnel to run his team.

    I don't expect Philbin to last more than one more year and by the end of the 2014 season, Ross will finally realize that Philbin doesn't have what it takes to get the job done as an NFL head coach. Unfortunately that means Dolphin fans are going to have to suffer through yet another mediocre season.

    I have no idea if Hickey is the right man for the job, but Ross keeps creating turmoil by not getting rid of the head coach and GM at the same time. First he fired Sparano and demanded that the new head coach work with Ireland. That prevented many quality coaches from even being interested in the job. Next he got rid of Ireland and required the new GM to retain Philbin. None of the top tier GM candidates wanted to come to Miami under that scenario and the Dolphins were left with Hickey. A man that no other team has shown any interest in hiring as their GM over the past two decades he has been in the NFL.

    The one person who really needs to be fired to improve this team is Ross but he owns the team, so Dolphin fans will just have to continue to accept mediocrity until he finally sells the team. The sooner the better IMO.
     
  27. Thanks I was not aware of that.

    I can not defend keeping philbin but not for the reason given in the op. Ross is the guy who preaches continuity. Philbin just hasn't been a great coach
    I think Ross should of given the new gm the authority to hire his own choice for a head coach.
     
  28. bigbry

    bigbry Huge Member

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    This thread reminds me of reading the Bills message boards.

    They dont debate and rank their successes they rank their failures.
     
  29. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Philbin hasn't shown anything that leads me to believe he is a very good coach. His strength appears to be his ability to stay organized. But other than that, I'm not sure I see much else that is redeeming.

    I certainly would have been on-board with his firing, but at the same time, I generally think its good business to let your HC finish out his contract.

    One thing that I still find curious - nobody has mentioned Dawn Aponte in this entire discussion. Her power within the organization is vastly underrated IMO.
     
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  30. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He was 11-5 with Jay Fiedler and won our last playoff game with Lamar Smith. It was the "leading rusher" you talk about that did us in, his GM skills. Wanny is a decent coach. Not stellar, not elite, but decent. The NFL leading sacker doesn't mean squat. It's one guy, with what, 15-20 sacks? Pressures and hurries are more indicative and yet it's still just one guy.

    In 2001 we were 11th in defense pts allowed but 8th in pts scored. With Jay Fiedler. And Lamar Smith's 3.1 ypc. That sack leader you talked about only got 8.5, and still lead the team. The point remains, Wanny with a stacked team isn't that bad, and we weren't that stacked offensively but he wrung out performances from the likes of Chambers, Fiedler, Gadsen, Smith, McKnight. If he had a Flacco level QB we probably have a good chance to win a SB those first two years. Fiedler was that bad, with a 4.0 INT % those first two years.
     
  31. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Was he fired the day after the season ended? He should have been. That's strong circumstantial evidence right there. He wasn't fired until after stories surfaced that Ross was pressuring Philbin to fire him. What else do you want really?
     
  32. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    My gosh this thread is about 4 months too late. No he should not have fired Philbin. Ross should have not meddled in decisions which are within Philbin's prerogative.
     
  33. Rocky Raccoon

    Rocky Raccoon Greasepaint Ghost Staff Member

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    People say Philbin doesn't do anything well but seem to forget we've been one of the most disciplined teams in the league since he took over.
     
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  34. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tom Olivadotti is an interesting case. Have we as fans, in our reverence of Shula, scapegoated Olivadotti a little bit. The Dolphins were a top 10 defense essentially, up to 1983, when they ranked 1/7 (pts/yds). 1984 7/19. 1985 12/23/ 1986 26/26. 1987 is when Olivadotti started. And for the next ten years they had mid 20's defenses, so Olivadotti didn't help things much of course and I'm not in the business of defending him at all, he sucked.

    But it looks like Shula's focus on defense evaporated when Dan Marino took over. The defensive decline definitely started under Shula and not Olivadotti.
     
  35. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In terms of what? Penalties? I'm not sure it's a big feather in his cap:

    http://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?&year=2010

    Seattle was the most-penalized this year, all four teams in the Super Bowl the last two years have been highly penalized. Miami also had similar performance in regards to penalties before Philbin got here.
     
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  36. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    But we lead the league in least number of bubble gum wrappers on the practice field. So there's that.
     
  37. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    The team is also 15-17 during Philbin's tenure with the team, including a complete collapse in the final two games last season. What good is it to have a disciplined team if they can't win more games than they lose?

    The Dolphin players appear to have taken on the persona of Philbin. Just like Philbin, the team seems to have no emotional involvement in many of the games they play. I would prefer a team with a little less discipline and a lot more attitude and emotion on the field.
     
  38. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Disciplined by what measure? If you're looking at penalty metrics, IMO those could be just as much an indicator of lack of aggression as discipline.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
     
  39. Den54

    Den54 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Would have liked a shot at Jay Gruden.
     
  40. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Disagree, we have Tannehill, like Philbin, think his duty to the Franchise is to make sure Ryan Tannehill develops, in that sense, he has done a great job.

    This is not Chad Henne folks, Tannehill is coming along, he does not have Henne's fear, and is a far far better athlete.

    Do think Philbin is over loyal to his staff, Turner, Sherman, neither should have been retained, Coyle and Rizzi are on the bubble
     

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