We need Sam ..we need Sam..we need Sam !!!!

If there wasn't something in this thread that didn't offend someone, I'd be shocked. It doesn't matter what side you are on, there was something for everyone. As a Christian, some of the stuff posted really rubbed me the wrong way, just as the non-Christians/atheists, etc. were rubbed the wrong way by some of the Christian posts.

In both politics and religion, I can not be put neatly in one box. I'm a Republican, but I don't care if gays want to get married. Have at it. And I believe in the right for a woman to choose. But I am as far right as you can get when it comes to fiscal policy and guns. As far as religion, I am Catholic, but I do not believe homosexuality is a choice. I believe people are born that way. I certainly don't believe that homosexuals are going to hell. In my mind, that is the way God made them. Seems silly to condemn them. But this is just my personal belief. As far as Catholic schools teaching that it is a sin, that is what the Catholic church believes and if you pay to send your child to a Catholic school, then that is what they are going to be taught. I didn't go to Catholic school. I didn't send my kids because at the time I didn't have the money. If I had, I would have told them what I believed and tell them to believe what they want.

Last thing is this. I've seen plenty of bullying in my 46 years. I have been on both sides of it, as much as I hate to admit it. In all my years I have never seen a homosexual bullied with taunts that they are evil and they are going to hell. It's always been, "You're a girl. You're a *****. You suck dick, etc." No one I knew ever used the religious based aspect of it. They would be laughed at. Citing the bible to ridicule someone gay? That would leave you open to being called a Mary yourself. I don't blame religion for the bullying of gays. I blame the society that we grew up in and live in (it's getting better). I'm 46. Look at who defined our male role models. Tough guys on TV. Football players. Hard nosed cops in the movies. I grew up with that image shoved down my throat from every which way.....from the Marlboro Man to Fonzie to Dirty Harry. Everywhere I looked I was shown that a man is a MAN. He doesn't wear dresses, hold hands with other guys, etc. So when a kid in school dressed in a feminine way, or talked in a feminine way, he got his balls busted and religion had NOTHING to do with it. That's my experience.

To end, I would like to say that it was an interesting point that DJ initially made. It should have never turned into gays are sinners and Christians believe in fairy tales and make believe.

 

I don't judge any Christians at all unless that individual happens to be imposing on others at the time, but that's not really applicable in this instance regarding Michael Sam b/c I can't go around and isolate each and every one of the million or so Christians who have a problem with Sam's sexual orientation. So whenever I used the word "Christians" in this thread, those are the specific people I'm referring to.

To use your troll point, it'd be like if a quarter of this forum were all trolling the same issue, only difference is- the trolls are trolling just to troll, where as that group of Christians believe they're dutifully adhering to their religion. If a quarter of this forum trolled the same issue simultaneously, the troll label would likely be dropped and it would instead take on the persona of, "What's up with this forum today? Why is everyone acting like a troll?". Unfortunately there is no word that distinguishes those Christians worthy of admonishment from the rest, so in this national instance of Michael Sam, the only word I can use when speaking about those Christians is "Christians" and then add a disclaimer like I did that specifies which Christians I'm speaking of and which ones I'm not.

That's arrogant of you. How did you arrive at this absurd, outlandish conclusion from my statement. Here it is as a refresher: "My father was a fairly heavily practicing Christian later in his life, to the point he would push his Christian beliefs and the Bible on me just as many others do to their friends and family." I guess it's a self-preservation tactic to make you feel better about your faith.

Now, let's clear some things up.

1. My father pushing his beliefs on me does NOT equal cramming it down my throat. My father was no different than any other typical Christian, and your DELUSIONAL if you think either Christians as a whole dont impose their beliefs on others or that my father was an atypical Christian from the bunch. I don't like to be imposed upon AT ALL. PERIOD. I don't care if it's six f***ing times in a year b/c that's still six f***ing times too many. No one should be imposed upon, but Christians in general and their better-than-thou attitude believe their justified in doing so b/c they foolishly believe they're helping that person see the light.

2. Just a major LOL at your smug insinuation that I was "driven away from Christianity", as if I would've been one had no one tried to steer me in that direction. The reason I'm not a Christian is b/c I'm capable of thinking and reasoning for myself and decided it's a dumb idea to join a cult and devote my life to an invisible person, a book of stories, a foundation of principles that science have massively debunked, and do so just because a handful of people from a few thousand years ago said so.

There's a reason Christianity is slowly whittling away, and that's because people are growing wiser and wiser to its incredulous ways. Let's pretend Christianity didn't start in 29 or 30 AD. Let's pretend it started in 2010, with everything exactly the same about the religion, the bible, you name, just as it was back then. So, there wouldn't be a few hundred million Christians, nor thousands of churches around the country. There'd be one freshly created church [or basement in someone's house], one newly minted Bible [or a few notebooks with everything written down in], and a dozen people calling themselves Christians spreading the word about some being that came from the sky telling them they need to devote their lives to him. So these people knock on your door, tell you a story about: how this invisible man with super powers created the earth in 7 days; fables about a man inside a whale and an arc bigger than this planet has ever seen that needs to be built to save all sexed pairs of animals from some imminent massive flood; characters that sound like they were plagiarized from Greek mythology and other religions; a guy born of immaculate conception who does magic tricks; tell you that the reason you stole a piece of gum when you were 12 was because some dude named Adam couldn't resist some temptress named Eve's beguiling attempt to eat an apple; and similar to how Santy Claus can deposit presents to kids around the world in one night, this invisible being can hear all 7 billion of our thoughts simultaneously. Then they say, all you need to do to join us is give us a portion of your income, come to our basement every Sunday, pray to this invisible man, donate your life to the almighty magician, and if you dont, your sould will burn forever.

3. I dislike Christianity b/c I dislike Christianity. My father's persuading attempt for me to become one has nothing to do with it.... but nice try.
I dislike Christianity b/c it's fabricated & fictitious; abuses power; greedily seeks wealth to no comparison; discourages people from thinking for themselves and rather serves to brainwash; is highly manipulative; employs fear tactics to the highest level; prays on the afflicted; is selfish and self-serving; operates under an agenda; grossly defies science in the face of indisputable facts; imposes its beliefs on the world to a disturbing, annoying degree; promotes war, pillaging, slavery, rape, persecution, and suppression of women, and has possibly been responsible for more violence than anyone else to ever grace the earth. I could give two sh-ts about the type of Christian you yourself are. That doesn't suddenly wipe out everything else Christianity is and has been responsible for. It's a terrible religion, and in no way, shape, or form do people need Christianity to develop morals or better themselves.

In fact, Christianity can make people worse b/c it teaches that bad actions and crimes can be wiped away by simply confessing and accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. it's a religion of mulligans.

Not to mention, Christianity acts to remove accountability b/c its entire fear-mongering foundation is based on the principle of "God's will". Essentially, you are what you are and things happened the way they do because God wants it that way. That means failures can be blame-shifted to being a result of "God's will" which thwarts feelings of accountability and creates self-fulfilling prophecies. "I've failed b/c God wants me to fail, so there's no need for me to work hard or dedicate myself to creating a better life for myself or my family". It's equally true regarding an individual's success or good behavior where accountability is attributed to God's will rather than the individual's hard work and dedication. Basically, if God wants you to succeed then you will, so if you aren't succeeding, then there's no sense in trying. It's a religion that creates complacency and takes credit for success. It operates on a false belief that people can't accomplish anything, improve their lives, or become a better person w/o Jesus Christ, and that any success of such isn't because they actually put their mind to it, but rather b/c Jesus or God allowed it.

The ironic thing is, if you were truly a devout Christian, you wouldn't be operating on some modified version of your religion. You wouldn't pick and choose the areas that you think apply today and dismiss the stuff you think or know are phony. You'd practice it exactly as it was intended when it was created two thousand years ago.

 

I hear ya Scotty. I'll PM you my email address and we can talk some more outside the forum. Even though we disagree, I'm always happy to talk and debate.

 

I realize that you just want to argue and insult people on both sides of the fence, but your statement is absolute horse ****. Christianity is whittling away because of the world we live in- packed with instant everything and no time for God. People are not growing wiser at all, they are just growing away from religion because they're too focused on what Sally said on Facebook or what Billy shared in a Tweet about Miley Cyrus twerking.

Christianity does no such thing, and I don't think people need an athiest to teach them about Biblical principals anyway. Just so you know, there are no bonus points in hell, so there's no reason for you to continue making things up to fit your agendas.

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about since you've always lived a Godless life. The church does not take credit for what I do in life and neither does my pastor. I'm successful because I work hard, make sound decisions and take care of my customers. I choose to give credit to God for God's sake...not for a man, a church, or a community. Only a true hater wouldn't be able to see that.

 

Todd - are you purposely trying to be offensive at this point? It sure seems like it.

 

then you clearly don't understand the psychology of it.

...and LOL at you arrogantly suggesting a person can only know what he's talking about if he's made a commitment to accept Jesus as his lord and savior, as if the act of accepting him miraculously downloads into your brain everything there is to know about Christianity. Knowledge is knowledge, dude. You're not gifted it by some sort of divine intervention........ and the last time I checked, Christianity isn't a secret society. I have the ability to learn and understand as much about it as you do, only difference is I wouldn't feel a need to block out aspects that contradict my beliefs like you would. The massive mistake on your part is believing I reject Christianity b/c I know nothing about it; however the truth is the opposite- I reject Christianity b/c I took the time to learn about it and its past. I'll put a theologian against a typical Christian any day of the week and the theologian will run circles around him. A Godless life doesn't mean I've never stepped foot in a church, so that's a nice failed assumption on your part too. Unlike many of the brainwashed, I actually took the time to objectively investigate Christianity to see if I wanted to devote my life to it just as my father, other relatives, and Clemson college friends [in the middle of the BIBLE BELT] already had. During that process and before it, I'd been to church more times than I can count and considered myself a Christian until I did enough research to realize I wanted nothing to do with Christianity as a whole even though I had nothing against modern church or those Christians themselves who weren't involved in persecuting others or imposing their beliefs.

The irony of you telling others that they don't know what they're talking about is the only retort you can come back with is, "...but the Bible says"..... and "just b/c you can't see him it doesn't me he doesn't exist". Meanwhile I'm mentioning Christianity's history involving genocide, war, slavery and slave trading, rape, suppression and abuse of women, persecution of gays, and molestation of boys, and you conveniently continue to not address it.

 

No I'm not. I responded to a smug, absurd statement accordingly. It just gets very annoying to hear Christians [who have likely been so their entire lives] tell non Christians, gays, etc that any persecution or imposing of beliefs they experienced is nothing but a figment of their imagination. At least you told it like it is- that gays were in fact taught to Christians to be sinners.

As far as your suggestion that religion isn't responsible for bullying gays, I'd have to heavily disagree. Just look at what's happened in Russia at their most prominent gay club.

Secondly, your assumption operates under a belief that all gays dress or act effeminately, which isn't true. When a gay kid or gay man has his house graffitied with "God hates f***", it's not b/c of the way he dresses. If an effeminate-dressing kid can get beaten up or bullied b/c society at the time taught us men need to be manly [ala your Marlboro Man reference], then a gay kid most certainly can and has gotten beaten up b/c his religion taught him that being gay is a sin. It's quite ignorant to believe one instance is possible but the other is not, especially when religion is a more powerful influencer than television or advertisements.

Furthermore, you have to ask yourself WHY it was depicted that men needed to be so manly in the first place. You said society influenced it, but society isn't a living breathing thing acting on its own. Something had to influence society in the first place for those manly man perceptions to even exist. If you think religion didn't influence society during that time then I don't know what to tell you. When you're taught that being gay is a sin and homosexuality is shunned upon, then obviously the opposite is also true- that being a manly man should be the most approved. The easiest way to stamp yourself as a non homosexual and avoid persecution was to dress and act as far from gay as possible. If Christianity showed a greater tolerance and acceptance of gay men during the 50's, 60's, and 70's then there wouldn't have been such an emphasis to portray American men as the hyper manly "Marlboro Man" or "Dirty Harry", and thus effeminate dressing/acting boys would've been subjected to less torment, so no matter how you slice it, religion still falls into play.

 

Sure. Ok. In any event, you've stated your opinion in great length now. Twice. I think everyone gets it.

 

Yup, he just hates everyone. It's not worth responding to.

 

That's harsh... and wasn't it YOU nitpicking his comments ? He was just speaking his mind............


Im guessing that's still a sin in your religion ?

 

....said the guy whose religion needed WW2 to stop its genocide, the Equal Rights Amendment to stop its misogyny, the Civil War to stop its slavery, and a recent movement to stop its persecution of gays. Yet I'm the one who hates everyone. Righhhhht. Whatever makes you feel better about your faith, man.

 

Science....everywhere science. But people just ignore that proof and believe in hocus pocus.

 

Yet this is something Christians do constantly.

 

One thing I will say in favor of Christianity is that Islam is even worse. Their prophet was a damned pedophile for gawd sake. Mohammed married a 6 yr old girl, but being the nice fella that he was, he held off having sex with her until she was 9. Islam is much more misogynistic and backwards. Damned glad there isn't more of those idiots in this country. Even though I don't agree with Christianity for all the reasons you give, I will tolerate them and respect their right to believe what they want just so long as they don't tread on me. Islam is a different can of worms though. I do not ever care to offer it any respect whatsoever.
The one religion I respect above all is Buddhism, because the Buddhists I've known have zero interest in trying to shove their religion down anyone else's throats. In Thailand it appeared to me that the Buddhist faith that 95% of Thais profess to, seemed to benefit them more in how they dealt with their day to day life than what I see from western religions. Also, Buddhism teaches that when it contradicts science, it's not science that needs to change, it's Buddhism that needs to adapt to not go against science.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

That has nothing to do with the Bible. What he's basically saying throughout his rants is that anyone who ever read the Bible has committed genocide and dozens of other atrocities. There's absolutely no logic behind it, so it's not worth responding to. Anyone with an IQ over 50 can figure out on their own that just because someone says they're a Christian, it doesn't mean that every action they take throughout life is God's work. Mr. Clean pointed out the same thing from my comment, yet him and his buddy still lump every Christian together like we're all the same person. It's pure ignorance.

If you really want to though, we can play this game out-

Joseph Stalin was an atheist that starved millions, ordered anyone who didn't believe his viewpoints to be executed, and killed an estimated 60 million during his reign. If you follow the same logic you apply to Christians, all atheists are mass murderers.

Jeffrey Dahmer, one of the United State's most notorious murderers, was homosexual. He also ate many of his victims, which means all homosexuals are murderous cannibals.

See how fun this game is? We take a few random facts and doom a whole culture for the rest of time, all because the lie fits our warped agenda.

 

There's no more dangerous then a closed mind.

 

Check out Universalist Unitarians.

 

Yeah no I'm not. Not even close. That's a very high level of selective reading on your part and only further proves how agenda-motivated you are. For someone who is supposed to be an honest Christian, that's a massive level of straw argument you got yourself there buddy. I'm sure Jesus doesn't approve of such behavior.
I have NOT lumped every Christian together and have SPECIFICALLY made a point to say so, but just b/c you haven't done anything wrong, it sure as sh-t doesn't mean Christianity as a whole is free and clear of wrong doings, and that's your f***ing problem. I SPECIFICALLY said my gripe is with Christianity the religion, NOT each and every Christian. Your arguments get more ridiculous by the second.

Just b/c you haven't done anything wrong [allegedly] it doesn't mean the Africans who were burned and hung by CHRISTIANS suddenly never happened. Your clean life doesn't wipe away a few thousand years of misogyny!..... and it doesn't wipe away the millions killed at the hands of a CHRISTIANITY inspired genocide. Stalin didn't starve millions BECAUSE he was an Atheist. Dahmer wasn't a mass murderer BECAUSE he was homosexual. However, the acts I spoke of happened BECAUSE Christianity or the Bible supported it or endorsed it. Hitler and that entire German movement thought they was carrying out their Christian duties. The KKK thought they were performing their Christian duties. These Westboro Baptist whackjobs believe they're strictly adhering to the Bible. The suppression of European and American women occurred b/c Christians believed the Bible taught it. Slavery occurred among Christians b/c they believed the Bible advocated it. You are a blind blind man. Even "homosexuality", as it applies to same sex acts that deviate from a so called man-woman norm, is Western Christian created around the 19th century and was then used as an attempt to wipe homosexuality from America. Christians were pushing for procreation during a time when the Colonial population was low and felt needed growing, so they fought to ban or instill stiff punishments for any type of non-procreative act. Sodomy of all types was prohibited [man-man, man-woman, man-animal]. Initially there was no such thing as homosexual sodomy. There was only sodomy. But very quickly that morphed into giving same sex sodomy its own distinction- homosexuality. Christianity is responsible for creating the homosexual label in this country, and it's responsible for their persecution.

If there are a large portion of "good" Christians in this country such as yourself who aren't responsible for this type of behavior like you suggest, then show me what they're doing to right the behavior!! Standing back and doing nothing doesn't make you innocent, especially not while your fellow Christians are responsible for much of the wrong-doing. So, if you and a portion of your fellow Christians believe the persecution and abuse of gays is wrong and that you don't support its practice, then show me what the f*** you and your fellow Christians are doing to put an end to it. What, your smug passive-aggressive attempt to offer gays salvation should they decide to change their sinful ways? GTFO here.

 

Get used to it?...

 

Also the pope saying to those Africans that it's bad to wear condoms when millions are dying from aids. Also, there's that small thing, the systematic molestation of thousands of children. Ethnic cleansing, most wars, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc………

 

Adding to that, after what we now know, the massive hypocrisy for them to even teach such a thing.

 

The Disney Channel.

 

Don't they teach the same thing in regards to whacking off? I know I was told that. Didn't stop me then it doesn't stop me now.

 

and yet your avatar says no fist pumps allowed

 

Blind donkey and hairy hoofs say you are telling the truth.

 

And there you go again with more ranting, blaming the Christians for everything in the history of the world. A born-again Christian walks in the path of Christ and constantly tries to improve themselves, witness to others, and treat everyone with kindness...even people who do not deserve it (hint, hint). Obviously, the people you're referring to were not true Christians...which means they were never truly saved...which means they never made it to heaven.

Once you die, you can talk to them firsthand in hell and ask them what they were thinking at the time...maybe that will help you.

I never said I was a good Christian; I mess up all the time and I've repeated that in dozens of posts here. I'm an average Christian, trying to live my life right and to treat others with respect...even when they insult me and the entire lineage of Christianity for their own atheist amusements (hint, hint again).

As far as what Christians will do to put an end to homosexuals going to hell, there's nothing we can do about it...nor is it our responsibility. I tried to witness here, teach God's word and encourage some people to get back in church...homosexual or not. Just when I was starting to have a serious conversation with a few people though, Satan reared his ugly head on your laptop and here we are. Instead of accepting that I might actually be helping a few people, you wanted to make sure that this was nothing more than an epic argument until everyone got fed up with it. Congrats, you and Satan win.

 

wow 20 pages, Can't wait for the draft already to find out if we need Sam

 

While so many of you Christians seem so intent on speaking against the "abomination" mentioned in Leviticus 18:22, why do you not give equal focus on speaking against the "abomination" mentioned in Leviticus 11:9-12 ??

As for calling phinsational Satan, that is laughable. Satan is a Christian concoction meant to scare people into being good, along with the myth of an actual place of perpetual fire called hell or Hades. Since phinsational isn't a sheep in the Christian flock he cannot be Satan, since he would not even believe such an actual entity exists, other than inside the minds of the delusional.

 

Which explains exactly why he shouldn't have 50+ paragraphs dedicated to trashing Christians. His belief is irrelevant though, because there is a Heaven and a Hell. I hope that he figures it out someday, but attacking people with religious beliefs, just to be a jerk about it, is not a very good start. Being a false prophet is doing the devil's work though...I didn't say he was Satan.

As far as why I'm not talking about eating clams and lobster, it's because this isn't a thread about clams and lobster. Duh. Since you've brought it up a dozen times already though, read Mark 7, versus 18-23. Jesus repealed that law directly, saying that no food can defile a person's spirit. This is also repeated in Acts 10 and 1 Timothy 4.

If you look at what Jesus said about homosexuality though, he pointed to the first four books of the Bible, which included Leviticus. While he implemented many new laws that were implemented by his death on the cross, he was perfectly clear that homosexuality was still forbidden.

 

My god, this thread has jumped the shark....surprised the mods let it get this far without moving it.

As a homosexual myself, i am absolutely appalled by some of things said in this thread and completely sadden by the fact that my "choices" in life affect some many other soo much that they feel the need to hate me. Yeah im the one ruining the sanctity of marriage....i've been with my partner for 11 years, we have an amazing little girl together. Amazing, and well adjusted, even though we brain wash her into to thinking having two mommies is something that society is ok with. One day she'll realize what a hateful world we live in and it's mostly driven by religious sects that have a foundation based on not judging other humans, and it makes me sad that she's going to think we lied to her. Hopefully, being a lesbian doesnt exclude me from teaching my daughter right from wrong and that treating others with respect whether you agree with them or not is the only moral code you should ever live by.

Why does this world force us to refer to Michael Sam as the gay player? That is NOT the only thing he is, He's Michael Sam, a brother, a son, a player, a student. Why should we care what his sexual orientation is? Will that make him a better or worse football player? Hell, to the f, No......Let's get our priorities straight (see what i did there) people, if he can play football in the best division in college football and be as dominate as he was, then that is what he should be judged on....

 

1.Prove it.
2. You said earlier that if a known gay person were to be watching a football game with you, or something similar, you'd feel compelled to witness to him about the error of his ways. So I was just wondering if you'd do the same for the dude who showed up with a bucket of popcorn shrimp.
3. So where again is Jesus directly quoted as saying homos are bad?
4. Many new laws implemented? I thought Christians were supposed to believe they are living under grace not under law.

 

It's kind of funny, but this is about to hit the 21st page and I don't think I once read anyone say, "I hate gay people." I've seen folks hating Christians, hating the Bible and hating just about any type of organized religion, but there's been no homosexual hate here at all.

Until we started talking about religion, the only thing people here have said is that Sam should not be given special treatment because he's gay. It came off as a bad publicity stunt to boost his draft ranking, but I've also found out that several of his college teammates were leaking rumors to the press that he was gay. Instead of letting it be a lingering issue that could potentially keep him from getting scouted at all, he went at the press head-on and told the world. I respect that and believe it or not, I think most of the others do as well.

The argument started when a select few decided to re-write the Bible, and that's where myself and a few others shared the gospel. If we offended you, then I'm truly sorry, but hopefully you realize that only Christian beliefs were attacked here...not homosexuality or your choice on how to live your life.

Anyway, I said all of that to say this- I don't think you lied to your daughter. Kids need good-hearted, loving parents to succeed in life and I see no reason why two moms wouldn't be better than one.