The claim is based on who he chose relative to what was available to him. You can't say the quarterbacking has been terrible, and put that all on Ireland. He isn't responsible for creating who is available. 2009-2011 weren't good years to get QBs. At this point, Matt Ryan is really the only QB that you can legitimately say the team passed on that has turned out to be a winner.
wow talk about not being able to let go...I didn't think dolphin fans would still be foolish enough to defend taking Long over Matt Ryan lol...guess I was wrong.
What I loved most about 'the one about Matt Flynn' was the media narrative about the Dolphins "missing out" on Matt Flynn and how the integrity of the organization was called into question.
No, but I think there is a plausible case that Ryan wouldn't have been as successful here. We still should have drafted him, like we should have drafted Tanny, and if Tanny washes out we draft another and another and another
Well, you could say that you were wrong in thinking that everyone else thought the way you do, but that's fine. To each their own, it just gets old that every bump this team takes is immediately brought back to Irish... Not you, but I actually read a post on another forum that blamed Ireland for not doing enough at the TE position this year and that he should have anticipated an injury ?? But that's why we're on these boards...to argue/discuss our point of view...
I agree.. Watched all of Flynn's reps as a pro, in preseason and his big game against seattle..I wrote a long thread about why we shouldn't aquire him..
I won't argue that, but it was the front office of the Falcons which signed Gonzalez and Turner in 2008. If Ryan had failed in Miami as you suggest, it would have been the fault of Ireland and Parcells, because they couldn't draft or sign the talent to surround him. In no way can you compare Ryan to Henne. Ryan is a top ten talent and Henne was never more than a below average QB in the NFL. It all comes down to the front office of the Falcons doing a much better job in the draft and in free agency in the past five years. That is why the falcons are a consistent playoff team and the Dolphins have been mediocre at best over the past five years.
I see Ryan as a borderline top 10 talent. I see Henne as a borderline top 20 talent in the right system. I have Ryan as better, but I do see them as comparable. Ryan finally took a step last season, but up until that point he had never shown the ability to carry the team. He had just been a guy that you could win with if the team around you was good enough. I see Henne as similar in that regard. I do agree that the Falcons FO did a better job. I hated Parcells' philosophies. I thought they were outdated and said so when he was first hired.
I actually think Flynn would have been okay here. I think Philbin would have been able to fit the system to him. Now I don't think he would have been great or anything. I think his ceiling is relatively low. I was in favor of signing Flynn, but still wanted us to draft a QB with more potential. My strategy at the time was to sign Flynn for a relatively modest contract and then still draft either Tannehill in the first or Wilson in the second.
Pryor just made one of the best Qb scrambling runs you will see, and on the previous play, one of the best scrambling then passes you will see...impressive..
Dude, I know some guys that still defend the decision, and would still take long over ryan even knowing what we know now. I guess I understand if you supported long over ryan, but with hindsight and the fact long isnt even here, I can't understand that.That's like still wanting oden over durant.
Emotions over logic. The obvious answer is you take Ryan and then load the team up with talent. Of course the problem is, the person who would have taken Ryan also didn't do a great job at picking talent since then. Scheme is one thing, but good athletes are good athletes. It's not like Parcell's system, outdated as it is, demanded bad players. You still needed good players to fit the system, instead we ended up with Patrick Turner, Jalen Parmelee and Lex Hilliards. Don't blame the system for the choosing of talent. As for Flynn, good. I don't even know what the hubbub was over him. One game with 6 TDs and when I went to go check the highlights, were all excellent plays ... by the receivers. When he signed with Seattle I said good. Less than two games worth of highlights with the receivers making all of the plays.
The only system I could see Henne being a top 20 QB in is a flag football league with 20 teams in the league. He is nothing but a mediocre backup caliber QB in the NFL. I see no way that equates to him being a top 20 talent, no matter what system he is playing in. He was a mediocre college QB who was surrounded with quality offensive players at Michigan. The fact he was beat out for the starting job at QB by a very average, Blaine Gabbert, shows how little talent Henne really has at the NFL level.
I'd personally have picked John Nalbone and Shaun Murphy for use in this example over two 6th rd picks who managed to still be playing in the NFL 4 yrs later. (note: my reply is not meant to be in any way a defense of Parcells or Ireland, just of those two particular players on their own)
Well theyre out there, and this particular conversation was with a couple of smart guys. One of those conversations where no matter how strong your argument is, they wont budge. And Sparano would probably still take Jake lol.
it's interesting... Does anyone think Ireland would have drafted Wilson after signing Flynn? (ala Seattle)
meh... how many Super Bowls has Matt Ryan won? 0... How many would he have won in Miami as opposed to Atlanta? negative three!!
the ole " how many would he have won if he was drafted by us argument... Dam Marino never won a superbowl..so much for that argument. Dude has led his team to the playoffs every year since entering..has produced very good numbers, 62 % , 2 to 1 TD/int ratio...and a 56 > 22 victory record..Is efficient, is a leader, and makes tough throws....Im not sure what your arguing against, 3 great years by an Olineman.?
While I'm not big on the you need to win a SB to be a great QB standard, I do think there are some questions about Ryan. Up until last season I don't recall him even showing many flashes of being able to carry a team. I believe that if he were surrounded by less talent that there's a good chance he would have looked very Henne-like during his first 4 years. The difference for me would be that I might have still been defending him as I did like him as a prospect. It's just rare for a QB to survive 5 poor record years and a regime change if he's not shown the ability to carry a team.
The falcons didnt always have Julio jones and tony Gonzalez..he carried them plenty imo, I mean just coming in as a rookie and steadying that ship after Vick shows you the maturity of the player, was efficient in his rookie year and posted 11 wins.. That's all surface level stuff that has other variables in play, when it comes to the way he qbs and throws the ball, I see him do what the great ones do, and that's seeing a small window amidst chaos in the pocket, and manipulate the throw to finish on the delivery..
Roddy white, julio Jones, Michael turner, tony gonzalez or hartline, bess, bush, fasano? If to say the latter then....... I rest my case
They did have Michael Turner and Roddy White...heck they rode Turner to the tune of 376 carries and 17 td's. I think they brought him along right. Gave him a running game, a good weapon in the passing game, and not too much responsibility early on.
I didn't see that at all. The team won when the running game worked and lost when it didn't. That's why they struggled in the playoffs. The better playoff opponents were able to stuff the run and Ryan couldn't carry the team. He could still put up decent stats of course, but he couldn't make that play to carry the team when it needed him to. You saw the same thing with Flacco. He really didn't make those team carrying plays until the playoffs this year. If they had missed the playoffs (and it was close) would Flacco have even been re-signed? That's what I think we would have faced if we'd drafted Ryan. I think the team would have still been bad under the weight of Parcells' outdated philosophies and Henning's play calling most years and Ryan wouldn't have been able to carry the team. CP would have still beat our QBs out in '08 so that one good year would have been there although without Long. The other years Ryan wouldn't have been able to carry the team and we would have won about as much as we did with Henne. We probably would have still drafted RT and been exactly where we are now except we'd be complaining about blowing that 1st pick on Ryan instead of Long.
Your gonna need to reopen your case because Ryan didnt have Jones or Gonzalez his rookie year. I'm really not comparing, I'm simply saying he did his jb well as a rookie, the game was not to big for him, and he led his team to 11 wins, that's an excellent rookie season for a rookie Qb..
His rookie year when Michael Turner went for 1700 and 17TDs? Turner steadied and carried that team, he was a monster...they made the playoffs that year. Then missed the postseason the next when Turner fell off. Then in 2010 Turner bounced back for 1400 and they picked up Tony Gonzales, made the playoffs only to be smoked by GB 48-21 in Atlanta. The next year NY shut him out in the playoffs 24-2. Barely dodged an epic collapse on his home field to a rookie QB last year. I can't stand Matt Ryan. His weapons are top-notch, no one in his division plays any defense...stats get padded that way. Most overrated QB in the League, imo.
we disagree on Ryan and Flacco, I see both making critical throws at critical times since entering the league, they both had made normal mistakes early in their careers but, both made critical throws under difficult circumstances.
They didn't do it before this season. It's easiest to see it with Flacco. You can pretend that he was making critical throws all along, but if that were really the case he wouldn't have had to gamble on this season in hopes of getting the big contract. It obviously paid off after that playoff run, but he only had to do that b/c the team wasn't convinced he was the guy who could carry the team before that playoff run.
Not fair at all. Flacco was a DROPPED TD away from the Super Bowl the previous year against NE. He drove the team down to almost guarantee OT with a FG, had a pass dropped in the EZ and then the kicker shanked the short FG try.
You're wrong. Flacco was basically a late TD drop from the Super Bowl last season. And Matt Ryan's nickname is Matty Ice for a reason. Just give it up, we made the wrong choice.
And this is what counts in the big picture, analyzing the job individually, that's why I made the comment earlier about the surface level stuff, (wins, stats) he was good enough two years ago to put his team on his back and drive his team down the field for the winning score, on the road, in the biggest pressure situation you can make up...That's as much proof as you need in terms of what you have in the player.
Wow!, it's like you guys have no memory. This was the headline of one of the Bleacher report articles back in December 2012: Joe Flacco Must Get His Act Together, or These QBs Could Replace Him in 2013 BY GARY DAVENPORT (FEATURED COLUMNIST) ON DECEMBER 22, 2012 http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...gether-or-these-qbs-could-replace-him-in-2013 Here's an article from a Baltimore paper at about the same time (and this from a guy who likes Flacco): I do believe that the Ravens will stick with Joe Flacco and try to get a long-term deal with him. They win with him at quarterback. However, internally, they have to wonder how far they can go with him, and how much to pay him. Franchising Joe is a huge commitment. Top 5 money for a QB who has never been to a Pro Bowl…too much Reality is that before that playoff run Flacco was not considered among the elite QBs, but above the likes of a Ryan Fitzpatrick. http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2012/12/05/steve-davis-flaccos-future-contract/ What I am saying about Flacco being a question mark before the playoff run is exactly right. There were questions about whether or not he'd ever be able to win a SB. He had a great regular season record, but like Ryan, most objective observers conceded that he had benefitted from a great supporting cast for most of that.
