Sunday buzz column.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    it means nothing, could mean he plays faster than last year, but he said nothing at all that would make me think he is playing "better" than gibson
     
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  2. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Re-read through the article again and also got a tweet from Barry Jackson.

    1) I think my favorite thing is the fact that Matt Moore walked into the QB room and Tannehill was watching Mike Wallace's Steelers' film trying to figure out more ways to get him the ball. Pretty savvy for a 2nd year QB if he did that all on his own.

    2) I asked Barry Jackson about Odrick and where he plays this year. Jackson said the plan - right now - is for him to play both DE and DT.

    I think that falls in line with what I was expecting, and it struck me about something Disgustipate (and I agree with his line of thinking here) said a while back that there might be a plan in place where if you have Odrick at the DE spot, perhaps it is situationally where Odrick is playing 4 and 5 techniques (most likely in base packages), and you see Olivier Vernon or Dion Jordan in situations where they want someone playing a 7 or stand-up 7 technique or even 9 technique. That, IMO, allows you to still keep the integrity of your 3-4 style fronts with Odrick's size, but it also allows him to play inside and create more of a rotation with Starks at the 3 technique spot. Coyle also mentioned that Vaughn Martin is capable of playing 5 technique, so that offers some flexibility as well with Odrick as he's the best pass-rushing DT Miami have aside from Starks.
     
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  3. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    That's exactly what he's saying.

    Gibson got the contract and then promptly they moved him to the slot. That job is his.

    Does Binns play special teams? It was one thing to get playing time when we were hurting bad for players at WR. However, now that 1,2,3 are locked down. 4 and 5 need to show they can play on special teams to or they are going to have a hard time convincing the coaches to give them a spot. Right now I can see about 5 guys in that mix for those last 2 spots once the pads come on. Cause lets face it...every year we hear a guys name when there is no pads...and then he disappears once the pads go on.
     
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  4. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    Coach Coyle has some real position flexibility to work with. I'm excited to see what he does with it.
     
  5. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Sounds like a porn commercial.
     
  6. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Perhaps I'm wrong, it would not be the first time, won't be the last time either.

    Just struck me that the article appeared to be saying "Philbin likes larger slot Wr's and Binns is playing fast(er then Gibson).
     
  7. Larryfinfan

    Larryfinfan 17-0...Priceless Club Member


    Well, maybe he might prefer a bigger guy, but really all he said was the 'sometimes' you want a bigger guy in the slot...he made no reference to one being better than the other... He did say Binns was playing faster than last year, but he rarely saw the field last season, so it could just mean that he's improved this year so far, hardly a recommendation as Gibson not playing well in shorts...
     
  8. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    With Odrick and either Soliai or Starks at DT, I'd prioritize finding an athletic jumbo RE with some pass rush ability and keep Jordan at LB, so Stephon Tuitt would be ideal for this defense and my priority numero uno as of the moment. Would much rather have Tuitt at RE and Jordan at hybrid LB than Jordan at RE and Misi in the hybrid role. That combo allows for greater scheme flexibility, greater overall athleticism, better overall pass rush ability, as well as keeps us strong vs the run to set up 2nd and 3rd & longs.
     
  9. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    It should give us all boners.
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Like I said Matthews is the much more imposing payer, Binns has 2 and half inches on Matthews and thats it when it comes to size or physicality.
     
  11. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Sorry dude, but Jordan is playing DE. All it takes is a quick look at the depth chart. Misi, Vernon and Maybe Jenkins will be battling it out for that last LB spot. Makes no sense to put Jordan into that bottleneck when Wake is our only natural DE.
     
  12. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's just where he's listed at. Odrick and Vernon are both listed as DEs as well. They both play multiple positions.

    Otherwise, I've got some swamp land in downtown Cincinnati for sale. :shifty:
     
  13. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well, is there really a natural LB spot other than the MLB in this defense? Most have called Kevin Burnett's role the SAM (now Wheeler) when the position actually has the responsibilities of a WILL. Vice Versa for Koa Misi's spot last year. I certainly think with Jenkins' coverage abilities, he'd be more apt to backup Wheeler. Vernon, I could see him getting snaps behind Koa Misi, as he did last year, though he's lined up at DE in OTAs and mini-camp. Jordan's even more athletic than Vernon, so I think he'd naturally be a candidate for that spot - he's even said he prefers to play standing up as a LB on multiple occasions (PFW magazine, interview with Willie McGinest post-draft, pre-draft interview with NY radio). Perhaps he's more of a guy used like the 49ers used Aldon Smith in his rookie year, but I highly doubt Dion Jordan is strictly a DE.
     
  14. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Lots of depth there, hopefully we can keep Wake down around 50-55 snaps per game w/o suffering a big drop off in production. I wonder if Vernon will be a full time end now, that would make Misi (contract year) and Jelani Jenkins the 1-2 and I have a hunch that Jenkins is going to be a pleasant surprise. Still mad we didn't land Josh Evans...
     
  15. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I think Aldon Smith's role is a good template for how Jordan will be used. He can stand up/ use a 3 point or whatever he prefers, as long as he's disrupting the QB and making plays in the back field I'm satisfied. I know he's capable of doing more, covering backs/TEs, hook/curl/flat drops etc but IMO nothing is more important than having him bring the heat.
     
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  16. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think they'll find a way to get Jelani Jenkins on the roster; but I think he's more in line for Wheeler's position and sub-packages. He's nowhere near good enough at the POA against the run to do what Misi and Vernon do. If I were making a front 7 depth chart as of today, knowing what we know, it'd look like this:

    LDE - Wake, Shelby
    DT - Starks, Odrick, Randall
    NT - Soliai, Martin, Randall
    RDE - Odrick, Vernon, Jordan - only in pass-rush situations
    LOLB (Will) - Wheeler, Freeny or Jenkins
    MLB - Ellerbe, Spitler
    ROLB (Sam) - Misi, Jordan, Kaddu or Trusnik

    Lots of guys can play multiple spots. We've touched on Odrick and Vernon. Kevin Coyle also said that he's played Vaughn Martin some as a 5 technique end (Odrick's spot) in mini-camp. I think they can mix and match guys based on what personnel packages they want on the field. Even watching some of their highlights from last year, they stemmed the front on occasion to make Cameron Wake a 5-technique closed end and had Odrick on the open side; something you wouldn't traditionally see with someone of Cameron Wake's size.

    I'm really interested to see what Coyle comes up with this year. I do think Jordan will be on the right side as a complement to Wake being on the left.
     
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  17. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I'm beginning to wonder if we can just kind of forget 3-4, 4-3, etc. and maybe see more personnel specific packages based on specific situations from the opponents offense.
     
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  18. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think that's likely. Just from last year, if you want to get technical, they play with 4 down linemen in base packages. But one of those guys is Cameron Wake who is playing in a 5 technique if he doesn't have a TE lined up opposite him, or a 7 technique if he does; pretty much the same as a 3-4 SOLB, except with his hand in the dirt. With Odrick or Vaughn Martin at end, it allows you to keep more integrity in the 3-4 type packages they used. Vernon kind of fits in the middle - I think he's better than having Odrick at DE if you're playing someone like Washington or San Francisco who has the read-option type of plays.

    If you really look at what they could do, you could have Wake and Wheeler on the left side of the defense and Vernon and Jordan/Misi on the right to get enough speed on the edges when it's called for and you still have the beef up front with Soliai and Starks. I think Odrick seeing more snaps as a base-package DT is to get a faster interior rush; I mean, hey, if we had Geno Atkins or Ndamukong Suh, I don't think we'd see Odrick there much, but we don't have a player like that so I think Coyle's created enough roles and has enough varied players he can adjust accordingly.

    At the end of the day, I think you just look at it and you could simply call it a 4-3 defense being run by 3-4 personnel. You've got a few guys who are hybrid type players suited for either front that can play on the edges in Wake, Jordan, Vernon, and even Wheeler.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2013
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  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with GM here todd, I think their thinking Jordan opposite of wake for the future, he's instinctive on that edge, plays with good leverage and of course has the potential to be a fine pass rusher..of course they will use his multiple faceted skillset in coverage on occasion but I'm thinking fixture on the end..
    And Damn it, I'm not taking another freakin defensive lineman unless Anthony Barr drops to the teens, which ain't gonna happen..
     
  20. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Philosophically, Miami and Seattle differ in personnel and what they look for at some positions. But, this article below is a good, good read on the Seahawks and how they incorporate many different looks - 4-3 Over (Miami ran this a lot last year), 4-3 Under, 3-4 "Bear front" (Miami runs something similar to this quite a bit).

    http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-...defining-the-seahawks-defense-an-introduction

    I'd just say pretend your looking at Miami's defense in a mirror. What Seattle did with Chris Clemons is pretty similar to what Miami did with Cameron Wake last year, except Clemons was on the defense's right side, for the most part, while Wake was on the left, so just flop everything over.

    The philosophical differences are pretty noticeable. Seattle uses BIG players on along the front - they were even bigger last year with Alan Branch (his role is now taken by former Dolphin Tony McDaniel). Their CBs are obviously much, much bigger than the guys Miami uses and they press way more. But, all in all, Miami and Seattle, and Cincinnati for that matter, use a lot of these same packages and similar personnel groupings.

    As a guide, when you look at the still shots from Seattle's defense, matchup Miami's players accordingly:

    "Leo" = Chris Clemons = Cameron Wake (Wake is in a 3-point stance way more often though, but it's not really much of a difference schematically).
    1 Technique = Paul Soliai
    3 Technique = Randy Starks
    5 Technique = Jared Odrick
    SAM = Koa Misi
    MIKE = Dannell Ellerbe - Karlos Dansby last year
    WILL = Philip Wheeler - Kevin Burnett last year
     
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  21. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I hope Jordan's able to get a lot stronger; in particular, add more upper-body strength by 2014. This year, I think he'll be utilized like the 49ers used Aldon Smith as a rookie in 2011 and how the Seahawks used Bruce Irvin in 2012. I see him as a matchup pass-rusher opposite Wake. As he gets more experienced, like you alluded to, then you can start dropping him more, letting him play more coverage. If you read the Seahawks article, you could combine K.J. Wright and Bruce Irvin's roles into one player, and that's what I think you could have in Dion Jordan down the line.

    Gotta admit DJ, you got me more warmed up to the Dion Jordan pick right after the draft. I wanted Jarvis Jones, but he's more "one trick pony" than Dion Jordan is. After some more research, and letting the shock of the trade wear off (wasn't mad, but SURPRISED Miami traded up and didn't take a tackle) I think Dion Jordan is a really nice get if he pans out right and they use him correctly.
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    yeah Ro I'm starting to worry some about that shoulder as well, hell he's been playing on it or recovering from it for almost a year, which is going to limit him in the weight room during the whole time, theres is a big misconception out there about this kids body, I can't tell you how many times I've heard over reactions about his build, he's got natural strength and an absolute elite frame that's perfect to add some size..this is not a Mingo body here were talking about..

    He is raw in every sense, and im not afraid to use the word potential even though he was the third oick, sometimes I felt he was just directed to go out there and chase the ball so Im hoping his mental capacity is much higher.
     
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  23. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    I'm not shy a bit about Dion Jordan, a bit Patrick Stewart in Excalibur saying:

    "...I saw what I saw..."

    After Arthur pulled the sword out of the stone, he'll take his lumps to be sure, a bit light in the bucket as a early 20's guy..that first step..wow..reverse gear...wow

    Also think baby squid will step up this year as well
     
  24. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Good post, great read, thanks.

    Wouldn't it be great if Cam Wake could play RE as well as he plays left?
     
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  25. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    what you talking about Willis? He hurt it around the 1st of November.
     
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  26. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are unrelenting on the field, they would kick their momma for a TD.
     
  27. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

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    I've been saying that since he was drafted, but the more cogniscenti among us told me that Ireland ALWAYS drafts his 1st rounder to be a rookie starter with no exceptions.
     
  28. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    In 2014? {which is what I was talking about)

    a) Misi might not be battling it out with anybody if he's not on the roster, which is a possibility if Ireland & Coyle see Jordan's future as a hybrid LB like a Von Miller.
    b) The now 270 pound Vernon will be at linebacker? Seems like they're getting him ready for life after Odrick at RE as a contingency plan since there won't be anyone to start there when Odrick moves inside and if we plan on maintaining a similar scheme.
    c) Jenkins is not a Sam regardless of how the positions are flipped on our D. He's a Will and'll be competing for nickel snaps and the backup job behind Wheeler like Ronin mentioned.
    What's that leave for 2014? Jordan as the starter.... and perhaps Josh Kaddu as the backup.


    Plus, will we be changing up our defensive scheme to accommodate this move of Jordan to RE b/c playing him there in nickel as a rookie is much different than starting him there full time. We gonna become a traditional 4-3 and deemphasize the ability to minimize the run on 1st down? Imagine going from Odrick+Misi to Jordan+Jenkins on the right side. Hello field day for running backs. lol.
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Furthermore, I don't understand this problem with us utilizing Jordan's athleticism at linebacker in base D like Denver does with Miller. It's not dampening Miller's opportunities to get after the QB as he had 498 pass rush snaps (only 33 fewer than Wake) and was tied with Wake for 1st in total QB pressures with 86.
     
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  30. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    The problem is that Wake is almost always on the strong side b/c he only plays LDE. I think Aldon Smith is a better comparison, both in body type and scheme fit. I could see Odrick 2 gapping as a 5 tech and Jordan playing what amounts to a 3-4 WOLB position. But if you put him at SAM he's going to be on the same side of the formation as Wake 80% of the time.
     
  31. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    who would want to pair Jordan on the left side with Wake? not me at least.
    Our Sam is basically on the right side for all intents and purposes is it not? If Von Miller were here he'd be flipped to the right side, too, covered up by Odrick rather than aligned with Wake, which is why I threw him out as an example. Plus he plays in a base 4-3 and moves to standup rusher in nickel. To me that might be closer to how Jordan will be used.
     
  32. SICK

    SICK Lounge Moderator

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    I got that too. The fact he mention RT proves this guy has a death grip on the position (obviously) and the respect of his teammates if they rattle that off without hesitation.
     
  33. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I admit, I was pretty surprised when Miami traded up for Jordan. I also admit that I thought Ireland would be a guy to draft someone that played right away or was a heavy contributor right away like Vontae Davis in 2009. All of the other 1st round picks since 2008 started from day one, so I understand the line of thinking. I think perhaps if Miami had drafted Lane Johnson or if one of the top guards had fallen to 12, the expectation would've been for them to start day one as well. And, to be fair, Joe Philbin hasn't always been around when Jeff Ireland's been tabbing Miami's picks. Now that he is, I think there's a bit of philosophical change as it comes to when players will be expected to contribute based on who is already on the roster at certain positions.
     
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  34. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, it is. Technically the Kevin Burnett position, now Wheeler's, lines up with Wake most of the time against a TE, so it's called the SAM spot, but in all actuality, that position carries the responsibilities of a weakside LB.
     
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  35. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    and this, having our alignment flipped so that the weak side is basically now on the strong, is why Soliai might be the priority re-signing between himself and Starks b/c to me this flip-flop is only possible because of big Soliai. Wake and Wheeler need him commanding double teams and effectively occupying blockers to maintain balance. It's not just the undersized Wheeler & Wake either; the 6'1 240 Ellerbe by today's standards is an undersized Mike. He benefitted greatly in Baltimore having those big DTs clogging the middle. I wouldn't want to risk seeing how or if his production changes by placing him in a position where linemen are getting their hands on him with greater frequency.

    The greatest single factor for Seattle's improved 2012 defensive success was how their defensive front allowed Gus Bradley the ability to scheme up both 1 and 2-gap concepts simultaneously in ways that allowed his linebackers and safeties to play fast rather than having to spend time reading and reacting. I believe Red Bryant's ability to 2-gap on the strong side was the key to it all. However, in Seattle, the responsibility of the 1-gappers wasn't to penetrate and be disruptive; it was a 1-gap and hold with the intention of clogging the gaps and walling off the line, therefore Seattle's 1-gappers needed to be big and stout in order to hold their ground between linemen without getting pushed around.
    I'm curious how their defense will perform this year with the stout 325 pound Alan Branch being swapped for Tony McDaniel and if they opt for a more traditional 4-3 base to accommodate all their DEs, especially with them looking thin at DT which is probably why they drafted two.
     
  36. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree that Soliai would likely be the priority. I also think you might be able to get him cheaper than Randy Starks as well. If you keep him, I think it lessens having Jared Odrick as a full-time 3 technique, if that's their plan for 2014 and beyond. Though, Geno Atkins is a free agent next year...I'd pay him before I paid to re-sign Brent Grimes and Dustin Keller.
     
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  37. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Would you mind elaborating on this? I'd like to get a better feel for how the responsibilities were flipped.
     
  38. RoninFin4

    RoninFin4 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If you look at Miami's alignments from last year, the 4-3 Over and when they played some of the "Bear fronts", which were pretty predominant, they used Kevin Burnett more like a Will LB. He was often playing in the short zone over the middle of the field; he covered TEs one-on-one a fair bit, and picked up a lot of RBs coming out of the backfield. He was the fastest LB Miami had last year, IMO, and could cover a decent amount of ground. He also "scrapes" to play the run quite a bit when they string plays out wide up front, as opposed to him going head-to-head with a TE and trying to hold the point, that was Cameron Wake's responsibility when a TE was lined up on their side of the defense. He was a sneaky blitzer from time-to-time. Now with Wheeler, I think that's something we'll see even more of as he's a much better blitzer.

    Misi on the other hand, while not as often head-up with a TE, is more of a force player and he would hold the point against the run. He and Odrick were pretty typically lined up together, and with those two, Miami set the defense on that side, trying to force plays the other way which was usually where Reshad Jones would fly up and make a stop. Misi is also sneaky good at pursuit from the backside and really improved is coverage last year as compared to 2010 and 2011 IMO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZwwrz0c6Vg

    In the video, at :35 and :41 there are good examples of Odrick and Misi forcing a play the other way and Jones making the tackle - Miami did this a lot more later on in the year. You see some examples of Jones playing on the same side as Odrick and Misi early in the video - that may be an alignment thing with the wide side of the field or some set matchup preference they wanted.

    At 1:10, you see Burnett drop into the short zone and pickup a back. On the Jones interception against New England, you see Burnett picking up the TE (I think that's Gronkowski) while Dansby is "spying" Brady. I think you see the same thing around the 2:00 minute mark in the play vs. the Jets, though it's hard to tell if that's Burnett dropping deeper than Dansby or if it's a DB. The best example is at 2:10 against the Colts.

    Also, if you look closely at around 2:30, you see one of the few times Cameron Wake dropped in coverage when Miami went to a 3-3-5 nickel package against Jacksonville.

    At 2:41 against the Colts, it's one of the rare times Miami lined up Cameron Wake on the right side of the defense, and you see Burnett take on a G one-on-one (also rare), and I think that's something that could be an issue with Philip Wheeler, as I don't think he would've done that much with Indy or Oakland. Burnett was an ILB for Dallas in the 3-4, so that's something he would've done before, and I think that's part of the reason why Miami was comfortable with him lining up on the strength side of the offense and leaving him unprotected from time to time.
     
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  39. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Ok, maybe we're discussing semantics then. I like Jordan on the right side b/c Wake is cemented on the left. I don't want him flip flopping to/away from the strength the way Misi and Burnett did and in that scenario he'd be predominantly on the weak wide.

    This is one variation, interesting to me b/c Soliai is the 1 tech to the weak side.

    [​IMG]
     
  40. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Much appreciated :up:.
     

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