yet even with Witten a broken finger Dez catches 92 balls for 1382 yards and 12 TD. The guy is a monster and ascending toward Andre Johnson territory. Don't understand the "disappearing" comment. He had 3 games under 50 yards. 7 games at 90+, and 2 more in the 80's. All the exact same for AJ Green. Julio had 4 under 50, 5 at 90+, and 2 in the 80's. For comparison, Hartline had 7 games under 50 yards, 3 at 90+, and 1 in the 80's.
what's with this Maclin crap? He's played in 59 games compared to Hartline's 60 since both being drafted in 2009. Instead of underlining "healthy" how's about you underline "production" instead, you know- that category where Maclin has 20 more TDs, 700 more yards, 27 more FDs, and 75 more catches. That's a difference of more than a full season average for Hartline, except for the TDs which is more than a career for him.
you mean like assuming Hartline's 1 season wasn't an anomaly?... except for the 1 touchdown of course. It's sad when your targets nearly double and touchdowns stay the same. Hartline's TD production is like the Dazed & Confused Matthew McConaughey of scoring.
Enough. I said: You asked how come we should listen to the coaches based on this statement I made. I said it was because they backed up that with the actions of bringing in WRs (and TEs, I still say mentioning TEs wasn't changing the argument at all) and not bringing in QBs to compete. That's the proof. If they thought the problem was with QB, you think they would have brought in QBs to compete....instead they brought in WRs (and TEs). What does that tell you where they thought the problem the passing game lied? I said Hartline, Bess and No one being our #1, #2 & slot receivers last year was a problem. Hartline is a piss poor #1, he's an average #2. Bess is an average slot and there was no one as the #2 WR. That was the major issue with our pass scoring last year, not Tannehill. I've said that repeatedly and in multiple threads. Yes, you got pissy, the second you got upset about me mentioning TEs (which was perfectly fine in the context of my above quoted statement) then acting like I was changing the argument. That was pissy on your part.
Bess was the slot, which makes him the #3 WR. The Loser Parade was the #2 WR. Bess was the second best WR on the team last year, but I was talking about the main 3 WR spots were upgraded to show you how we improved at all 3 this year. ....and because Hartline & Bess couldn't get open in the endzone. Also, there's nothing inherently easier about reading a TE's route inside the 5, than a WRs route. That's silly.
That cut's both ways, Fin... If a WR is the 'only' option, that means he gets a lot more coverage - and thus - is not considered 'open' as much. Outside of the Arizona game with the massive FUBAR on the Zona defense - how many times did you see Hartline 'wide open'. To me, he usually looked more like the 7th Cav at Little Big Horn - and still got catches.
yeah only when you pick the numbers that suit your argument and ignore the pertinent ones that don't. Hartine sure as poop isn't a top 35 receiver when it comes to scoring. RANKED 93rd Nor 1st Down % per target. RANKED 52nd (from receivers with at least 20 FD's) Nor total YAC. RANKED 41st, (which is terrible for ranking 21st in total targets) Nor YAC per catch. RANKED 82nd (from receivers with at least 20 catches) Nor catch rate %. RANKED 50th And barely squeaks through in yards per target. RANKED 33rd (however 46th without the 80 yard busted coverage TD). 21st in total targets but 93rd in scoring & 41st in YAC = little to no playmaking ability. Hard to be a top 40 receiver in this league without playmaking skills. The only thing you can argue at this point based on last season is Brian Hartline > Davone Bess, and that's not enough to warrant top 40 at the moment. When a receiver ranks 21st in total targets he will rack up yardage stats by default, and Hartline ranked 21st in targets b/c he was the #1 receiver on a team with only 2 friggin receivers, hence ranking 12th in the league in percentage of team's total targets (26.2%). Seriously, who was he competing with for our 505 pass attempts? How a receiver can separate himself from being a guy who benefits from extra targets is by producing in the redzone (which he didn't), moving the chains at a high rate (which he didn't), picking up YAC (which he didn't), and coming up big when we need it, not dropping TDs and easily getting tackled in the open field. Let's see Hartline post another 80 catch, 1000 yard season with more than 3 targets in the offense this time, upgraded targets at that, and then you can rightfully start talking about top 30 stuff. It seems to me that you and a few others might have a mindset that ranking below 40th = bad, but that's simply not the case b/c there's a slew of quality receivers in that clump just outside of 40 that I'd take on this team any day. From 40-60 is really a big cluster fudge where scheme fit is probably more important than how the players would rank superficially.
His averages per catch were more or less no different last year than any year prior. That means he didn't do anything better last year, he was just targeted more by default. He averages 14 yrds per catch and 1 TD every 40 catches, regardless of how many times he's targeted.
Exactly. Bess was essentially canned and Hartline was demoted to #2, not that Gibson won't try to push it to #3. So deductively speaking, right off the bat we can all squash the top 30 nonsense b/c that sh** should be reserved for #1's or top receivers. Now that he's back as a #2 we should have a fair shot to see how he ranks among the league's 2's & 3's to properly estimate where he belongs between 33 and 64. I hope he has a great year to where we unanimously feel he's hitting the mid to high 30's.
Hey where's Shouright when we need him? He'd love to back an argument discussing Hartline's demotion and Bess's exile.
Considering Hartline was voted a Pro Bowl alternate, it's safe to say his fellow players and coaches believe he's much better than top-40.
Perhaps he is. He's indicative of QB not holding back Hartline's scoring b/c Cecil Shorts didn't have a problem catching 4 TDs in 6 games from Henne last year, and Tannehill > Henne. Shorts nearly did in 6 games with Henne what took Hartline 29.
Say it with me now- 253 yards. That's what the players & coaches saw. Do you really think they took the time to check out Hartline's season on film when they had their own games and upcoming opponents to worry about? Cmon. Plus, 19 teams didn't even play us last year. They saw the inflated stats and heard the big deal made about his huge fantasy day vs Zona just as we all did, and that's it. If they actually watched our games they would've NEVER snubbed the NFL's best center nor disrespectfully placed the 1st Team All Pro and NFL's #1 pass pressure guy at the tail end of the Top 100 list.
Respect for putting up 1000 yrds after almost dying in the offseason? He's popular outside of the fanbase for his 1000yrds and 200+ yard game against Arizona? White guy vote? Who cares, its the pro bowl and proves nothing for this argument? The facts and the tape prove he's not "much better than top-40".
It wasn't for his outstanding play on the field. If I had to guess I would say he has a solid reputation among coaches and players as the kind of guy they wanted to hang out with in Hawaii. You can not deny that he was underwhelming on gamedays.
It proves what the professionals think about Hartline. The same thing that is illustrated when the Miami Dolphins give him a contract at the absolute worst time, because they didn't want him to hit the open market.
Sorry man, but Brian Hartline did not receive #1 WR treatment from anyone last season. Not a single team doubled or bracketed him regularly, not a single team had their best CB follow him around the field. Most teams spent extra resources on defending the run at the expense of allowing Hartline, Bess and whoever else more room to operate. I don't know if he's top 40 or not, I guess it depends on your personal preference. He knows the playbook inside and out, he's a good route runner, reads coverages well, is always on the same page as his QBs. He might be top 15-20 in that regard. He can get open on timing routes vs off coverage. He's adept with double moves and working the sideline, he'll run by a DB who's squatting on him consistently. Where he struggles is going against aggressive man coverage. He doesn't have the strength/quickness to defeat jams or the speed to run away from guys once he gets loose. He's not very good on in breaking routes like slants, digs or posts. He struggles to adjust to off target passes, especially down the field, and he is comically bad when transitioning from receiver to runner after making the catch, often falling down when there is no one near him or at the slightest contact from a defender. He often disappears in the red zone. He struggles to create separation on his own or make contested catches when there is little or no separation. Personally, I prefer the more athletic/dangerous receiver. The guys who can take the short throw and create a big play out of it or run past people and make the catch down field. Most of all, the guy who can score TDs when space is at a minimum. It's easy to move the ball between the 30's. A lot of defenses will concede those yards hoping for a mistake. I want guys who thrive when the defense tightens, IMO Hartline and Bess were guys who got missing in those spots. To be fair, Wallace tends to shrink in the red zone too, the difference is that when Mike Wallace is on the field you can be on your own 5 yard line and you're still in the red zone.
None of this actually refutes that the players/coaches believe he was among the top 40 last season. If you want to say that their opinion is invalid, thats fine. But you cannot change what they did.
Yeah it proves they respected his season, it doesn't prove anything other than that. You are choosing to look at pro bowl voting and infer the meaning instead of looking at the tape and stats seeing the the truth in black and white. Besides, you're giving an awful lot of credence to the pro bowl ALTERNATE distinction.
b/c Miami fans actually watch his games. NFL players hear about his 253 yard day, 1000 yard season, and think 2 and 2 has gotta = 4.
Ok, so again, by default that must mean they think Mike Pouncey is 2nd rate b/c they screwed him over royally, so either way I could care less what the professionals think b/c that opinion is obviously flawed. Besides, "proving what the professionals think about Hartline" doesn't conclude a hill of beans as to how they arrived at that conclusion. They obviously don't spend time watching Miami games just for fun during the year, or else Pouncey, Wake, and Jones would've garnered a sh** ton more respect than the puddle they had splashed on them.
If professionals thought he was so great, why did they never double team despite the fact they only other WR was Bess to worry about.
Concession? Why waste extra resources on such a mighty player who'll just defeat it for TD upon TD anyways when you can instead use those resources elsewhere?
He manned the #1 WR position last season and this season he will be at most the #2 (barring injuries).
yes. He was the top dog last year. This year he's been removed from that rank. Wallace's $60M vs Hartline's $30M suggests as much. It would've been two times over had Ireland firmly believed Tavon Austin would last till our 12th selection. They didn't feel the offense was good enough with Hartline as the top guy to not have to upgrade his #1 status with quite a costly player, nor be on the cusp of using a 1st rounder on WR. If anyone wants to spin it by saying he's likely to still be our starting flanker then please feel free to do so, but it doesn't paint the full picture.
I don't see how he's been removed from this rank. He's going to see the same snap count, and will likely be targeted more than Wallace. Contract doesn't enter into it.
It's just mine and others' opinion that if Hartline were a true number 1 caliber receiver (regardless of system) that Ireland & Co would've felt no or less desire to bring in Wallace at his cost nor look to use #12 on a receiver. I don't think he'll see the same snap count, as I believe Philbin & Sherman will allow Gibson, Egnew, Matthews, and Binns to eat into it. He could very well be targeted more than Wallace but that's not why Wallace was brought here as we know, and Wallace doesn't have to be targeted more to be the top guy. Plus I'm guessing Hartline won't be targeted by choice nearly as much as he was last year when he represented 1/4 of all targets. So to me, all of it eludes a slight air of demotion, although I don't think many of us believe he was ever promoted to the team's #1 receiver job to begin with so I admit it's a little inaccurate to call 2013 a demotion. He's really been the #2 guy all along to me, but I call it a demotion due to the fans arguing last year that he's a legitimate #1 receiver. Essentially, Wallace demoted him to the 2nd man on the totem pole IMO.
Who the hell argued this? If Hartline is your best receiver, you probably have the worst group in the league, which we did.
Receivers 1 thru 3 were never open in the endzone. Receivers 1 thru 3 never took the ball into the endzone. So someone, please tell me how Tannehill was supposed to increase his TD totals when his first 3 targets were that poor at scoring? I've asked this a number of times in a few different threads and have yet to be given an answer.
The label of a "#1" receive is a misnomer. Snap counts and targets are going to almost be scheduled. Wallace and Hartline will almost certainly be on the same "schedule". Hartline probably isn't going to change any from last year. He's the bread and butter of the passing game. Not a lot of guys run the routes he excels at as well as him, and not a lot of offenses feature it like Miami.
Agreed... and look at Cogs. I like the guy for his nastiness , but, per PFF, Cogs led ALL offensive linemen with 11 blown run blocks last season, and finished with the 9th most blown block sacks allowed among left guards. He too was voted as s PB Alt... The Pro-blow, er bowl, is a popularity contest as much as anything.
Are you saying that player contracts do no enter into how good/valuable to their teams they are? I'd say that's #1 indicator. 1B would be how defenses approach them on the field. I'm starting to think this is another devils advocate thread where you and Stringer argue for the sake of keeping conversation going. Which is fine w/ me BTW. I just wish you guys would come up with something better than Pro-Bowl votes matter and contract numbers do not. What's next, guys are drafted do not enter into how they are viewed as prospects?
That is how I see it, now add Keller and Gibson to the mix and we should have a potent passing attack. For the "he does not get YAC!" he still avg's close to 15 ypc, is dependable as well.
My opinion of Hartline certainly is not based on being a devils advocate. A number of people here have been Hartline fans for years now.
