Tannehill produced 12 Td's..12...think about that for a moment. It's not as if the EZ was filled with THill passes for Td's that Hartline just was not catching. That is less then 1 per game, to put that into perspective, look at who was tossing the ball to the Top 10 Wr's on the list and compare their TD production to Tannehill's and one will see why he did not score more often. Austin and Bryant made the list, why? B/c Romo will toss 30 Td passes again this year.
I said during free agency I felt Jennings was done. I didnt want him then. Hes got maybe 1 good year left and thats IF he can rebound from a year when he averaged 10 YPC with Aaron Rodgers throwing him the ball. And I dont want to hear he was injured because so was Jordy Nelson and Nelson outperformed Jennings when he was healthy which is why hes the #1 guy now. So if by ridiculous then I agree its ridiculous that Jennings still holds regards at a #1 receiver.
No they don't. Yes it does. Think about it. If Hartline as a #2 puts up 1000 yrds/1 TD, and Wallace puts up his norm of 1000yrds/8 TDs and Gibson puts up his 600yrds/5TDs this coming year then: 2013=3 WRs equal 2600yrds/14TDS 2012=ALL WRs equal 2300yrds/3TDs That would prove (if it plays out that way) last year the problem wasn't Tannehill but the WRs.
You think about it. Hartline wasn't open in the endzone. Bess wasn't open in the endzone. Is Tannehill supposed to throw into constant coverage in the endzone? We had a historically bad #1 & #2 WR combo last season and that was basically entirety of Tannehill's potential targets. Why is this ignored?
Recall one of these lists had Cam Wake as the 88th best player in the NFL. Think about that 87 better players in the league, best passrushing DE in the NFL for two consecutive years. Do find it funny that Hartline was both a pro bowl alternate and got the contract I thought he'd wind up with, now some yahoo comes up with a list and it's somehow validation for a misformed opinion.
12 Td's, it speaks for itself, in fact if one watched the games, and you did, one would recall two things about our goal line offense: -they preferred running the ball for Td's -when a Td pass was thrown it was inside the hashes to a Te or Rb, it was an easier read and throw. And the old sop of "better Wr's make a better Qb!" Is also disproven, did Vincent Jackson turn Freeman's fortunes around? Did Marshall transform Henne into a Td producing machine? Danario Alexander made the list, guess who was tossing him the ball? Qb makes the Wr.
Hartline had no one to compete with for targets and not even a #3 receiver in the mix yet you think Austin is the one who had it good? If that's not backward logic. Miles Austin had Dez, Witten, and Ogletree combining for a whopping 344 targets; meanwhile Hartline lucked out with Bess, Fasano, and Clay tallying a measly 206. Using your argument, during the 2 years Brandon Marshall drew constant double teams, Hartline should've gone ballistic, but that wasn't remotely the case b/c there's no f'n way we'd want to feed his no scoring butt 128 attempts with a great receiver on the roster. So, what we learned here is Austin's 943 yards & 6 TDs were not aided by Dez's presence. Dez is the alpha receiver in Dallas's offense so he's rightfully grabbing more targets just as Marshall did here. So, comparing Austin to Hartline on even ground when they both have an elite receiver to compete for targets with we get Austin averaging 59 catches, 854 yards, 7 TDs and Hartline averaging 39 catches, 582 yards, 1 TD. With no alpha receiver present, we get Austin tallying 81 catches, 1320 yards, 11 TDs compared to Hartline's 74, 1083, and 1. See how that works. Seriously, what did you think we were gonna do last year, not throw the ball at all?! Cmon. Look at the average pass attempts per NFL offense in 2012: 556 attempts. BY DEFAULT Hartline was destined for a 1000 yard season b/c there were no receivers to share those targets with outside of the guy we traded for a 5th and swap of 4ths. A receiver couldn't ask for a better statistically padding scenario to be in! In actuality, Hartline's stats were DOWN as a whole compared to his career, yes down. Yards per target were the same at 8.4 but yards/catch was down from 15.3 to 14.6; TDs per attempt were down from 1 per 40 to 1 per 128; and 1st down percentage was down from 42% to 38%. The only thing that changed for the Hitman was getting more passes thrown his way because we had no other friggin' choice but to do so, and obviously as pass attempts increase, so will the yardage and receptions. What, because Hartline has had one good year (I mean 4 good games to start off 2012) and garbage in the scoring department he's suddenly better than a guy who averaged 971 yards and 8 TDs the past 4 years? GTHO here. You guys really need to take off your homer hats and wait till Hartline duplicates or even expands upon last year's success before using his anomaly season, or more precisely- one 253 yard game, as an excuse to rationalize being superior to receivers who've produced for longer but had a down year in 2012. That's just blind homerism.
homer is such a stupid phrase. Really, what makes you think you aren't anymore dedicated to an idea? Especially since you've dedicated this entire offseason to that idea?
The numbers do prove it. He's a top 35 receiver. Also, the increase in receiver production could be from Tannehill improving. It IS possible he was the problem last season.
Taking your stance through to its logical conclusion, every WR has an unlimited ceiling and that ceiling is based on the QB's ability and not the WR's. Again, i'm not saying in every case the WR makes the QB. Your Henne comparisons are pointless, because he is a bad QB and better WR talent won't help him much. Tannehill very clearly needed better skill positions around him. Everyone saw that but a small handful of people on this site. If Hartline and Bess weren't open in the endzone, Tannehill can't throw TDs to them. If Hartline and Bess don't make people miss in the open field, then they won't get into the endzone with the ball. So, please, you tell me, how exactly a QB is supposed to rack up a bunch of passing TDs when his top 2 WRs are never open in the endzone and can never get into the endzone when they have the ball? What else is Tannehill supposed to do?
It is not really possible he was the problem if you watched the games, listened to the coaches, observed the offseason or looked at the numbers.
And therein is the "Henne problem", one can see examples and yet claim that so and so is the exception to the general rule. Tannehill started 16 games, no Qb who started that many games threw for less Td's then Ryan Tannehill. That may sound like I'm down on him, not at all, he has far far more guts then Henne did imo, better physical tools and more charisma. Does that mean I'm agreeing that he is the exception to the general rule? No, all I am saying is if he plays better the Wr's will be more productive, including Hartline. Though I honestly do think Keller is going to score most of our receiving Td's, just to good of a mismatch in the red zone to NOT feed him the ball down there.
No. Do you think they try to fix their problems in the offseason? If so, how many WRs were brought in and how many QBs?
We need a #3, and we needed a deep threat with speed, in that sense we are at a net #1 in the Wr department, that being Mike Wallace. Do note, we also traded out our leading receiving Td scorer, Fasano, for Keller, yet the Wr corps is the one to blame?
Henne is not indicative of anything of Tannehill. That's like saying we shouldn't have signed Drew Brees from the Chargers because look how FA QBs like Lucas, Feely, Harrington, Culpepper, Fiedler, etc all sucked. You have to look at the case on an individual basis. You still didn't answer my question though....if your Top 2 WRs are never open in the endzone without the ball and can't ever get into the endzone with the ball, what is Tannehill supposed to do?
Because their actions backed up their words. And besides, not always telling the truth is not the same as never telling the truth.
I disagree with that. Our #1 WR was improved from last year by bringing in Wallace since Wallace > Hartline. Our #2 WR was improved from last year because Hartline > Nananee/Gaffney/LoserX. Our #3 WR is improved over last year because Gibson > Bess. We improved all 3 WR spots. This makes no sense. Besides, if passing TDs were Tannehill's fault how did Fasano get a solid (for a TE not Gronk) 5?
they brought in a qb as I recall. And te's are the same as wrs now? Now you are expanding your range to prove your point. Stop it.
You stop it, they didn't bring in that QB to compete with Tannehill, don't be silly. Tannehill is the unquestioned starter. If you don't want the TEs, fine, take them out. We still brought in many WRs that all have a chance to compete, yes or no? Does that back up they wanted better WRs or not?
hence my do you think all wr positions are the same question. Answer that first, yes or no. And I don't have to stop nothing. You're the one bringing the nonsense.
IMO Hartline should not be included in the top 40. He has good hands but his YAC and his TDs are too low to rank him any higher than perhaps 50 or less.
Huh? First of all, its silly question, but no i don't think they're all the same. What does that have to do with anything? Secondly, yes you are being silly. it was silly to bring up the John Doe QB that was brought in to have another arm in OTAs and camp and is not in competition for anything. Its also silly to get your panties bunched over me mentioning TEs when your silly line of questioning is about me saying the coaches said they wanted better skill players around Tannehill to improve the passing game. And I still said you could take them out and you're still being pissy about them.
it has to do with you taking a number of wrs and apparently te's now, to say that they all prove the coaches are unhappy with hartline. Yet a qb being brought in doesn't prove the same. no ones getting their panties in a bunch or being pissy, except, well apparently you. But by all means. continue down your self preservation track of "I ****ed up but won't ever admit it". It amuses me.
His YPC is actually rather good, from what I saw last yr much of what held the Wr's back was Tannehill's poor ball placement, I've harped on it all offseason. The routes they run are designed to give them the ball heading downhill, THill just never could quite hit the sweet spot consistently.
Jesus christ, take out the TEs for the 3rd time. My point is still solid. The coaches were unhappy with the production of our WRs. They were unhappy with Hartline as a #1. If I'm wrong why did they demote Hartline and fire Bess? You're being ridiculous. Sure you aren't pissy, its why you're accusing me of basically cheating in the argument or whatever. Again, take the ****ing TEs they brought in to improve the passing game out of the equation, they still brought in numerous WRs to actually compete for roster spots and DID NOT bring a QB to compete.
Bess was the #2, and he's gone, Gibson moves to #3 and Wallace to #1 (perhaps) They subtracted Bess and Fasano, added Wallace, Gibson and Keller. I say perhaps on Wallace b/c his route tree is not that of a true #1 Wr, not the routes he is really effective at anyway, we could very well see Hartline catch more passes then Wallace with Wallace scoring more Td's. Hartline was also resigned by the people who brought those 3 into Miami, which speaks louder then anything we can possibly type here. B/c he was targeted more inside the 5 yd line perhaps? Basically we'd get inside the 5, were we usually tried to run the ball, Fasano would decoy block and find himself wide open in the EZ for the Td easy read, easy throw.
You stated that you had proof he was the problem and the coaches statements said so. I asked you how so. You haven't answered. You going off on a tangent isn't my problem. That's yours. And you're still wrong with your original statement. I asked you if you think all wrs are equal hence if all wrs brought in were equal to replacements to hartline hence all wrs were showing hartline as the problem as you stated. You went off on some weird tangent. I haven't been pissy with you. But keep pushing it to cover up your own anger. Like I said its funny to me.
Are you stoned off your rocker at the moment? I mean you're typing fine and didn't stop mid post to ask for some Doritos but still.... WADR it's silly watching you guys trying to elevate the Hitman into top 30 land just b/c of his first 4 games of 2012 (25 catches, 455 yards, 1 TD), because it sure as heck wasn't from the other 56 before and after. Hartline's first four games of 2012 with an average of 6 catches for 114 yards/game do not compensate for the 44 games before and 12 after that featured an average of 2.8 catches and 41 yards/game. 4 games to start 2012: 455 yards 56 games before and after: 2296 yards 1 game: 253 yards, 1 TD other 59 games: 2500 yards, 5 TD Nearly 10% of his yards and 17% of TDs came from one game. As far as yards and 1st downs go, it took Hartline 4 years to do what Mike Williams needed only 3, but Williams did it with 17 additional TDs, yet you think Hartline should go ahead of him? That's bonkers man, bonkers. James Jones, the NFL's leading TD scorer, was infinitely more efficient and productive on a per target basis and also had infinitely greater competition to fight with for targets. Rookie Josh Gordon was also better on a per target basis and didn't have 25% of his yards from 1 game. Danario Alexander owned Hartline on a per target basis and emerged as the top target on a team with greater WR & TE talent than Miami of last year. No way Hartline goes before Anquan Boldin who owned last year's playoffs. There's a reason Rice inked a 5 yr/$41M deal, DeSean Jackson $47M, Austin $57M, and Britt was a 1st rounder. Amendola & Denarius Moore are your closest shots at moving Hartline into the top 40, but even then you'd have to argue he deserves it more than Santonio Holmes, Lance Moore, Brandon Lloyd, #5 overall pick Justin Blackmon, Nate Washington, Mario Manningham, and a handful of the recent high draft picks and notable 2012 rookie standouts & 2nd year guys who should/could be coming into their own this year like Kendall Wright, Chris Givens, Michael Floyd, TY Hilton, Golden Tate, Greg Little, Alshon Jeffery, Jon Baldwin, Ryan Broyles, and Brian Quick, most of whom looked better than Hartline did at the same stage. Plus there's the 4 receivers drafted in the top 34 of 2013 to contend with.
No he's not definitely better. Britt > Hartline in every category: avg per attempt, YPC, 1st down %, TD% (MUCH HIGHER)... and on the field he's a playmaker in ways Hartline couldn't dream of. Maclin: been in the league as long as Hartline yet owns 75 more catches, 700 more yards, 20 more TDs, and 27 more FDs, and the talk of injury is silly considering he's played 1 less game than Hartline. Superior production by the 1st rounder. Rice: now back to his 2009 form when he tallied 83 catches, 1312 yards, 59 FD (48%), 8 TD, and a massive 10.8 avg per attempt. Hartline hasn't touched a season like that, and he won't b/c he's not talented enough to do so. Only reason Rice didn't statistically look great is b/c Seattle by far led the league in fewest pass attempts with 405, 150 below the league average. However on a per pass basis Rice saw a 9.4 avg (vs Hartline's 8.5), 51% 1st down (vs Hartline's 38%), and 8.8% TDs (vs Hartline's 0.7%). I would. You're talking about one stud who spent nearly 70% of his time in the slot who had a down year from 2011 vs a perimeter stud who was unstoppable at times, even with a broken finger. IMO you take the harder to find perimeter stud, especially when he's coming off a 92 catch, 1382 yard season, 10.0 avg, 12 TD (8.7%), and 54 FD (43%), where as life wasn't as easy for Cruz in year two with 86 catches, 1092 yards, 7.6 avg, 10 TD (7%), 52 FD (39%). I'd argue Dez deserves to belong ahead of Julio Jones at the moment, and a case could be made for being ahead of AJ Green as well who in 26 more targets still couldn't put up more yards & TDs than broken finger Dez. AJ hasn't shown the type of dominance that Dez did vs N.O. when he was an unstoppable man on a mission who looked like he was playing amongst boys (9 catches on 12 targets, 220 yards, 2 TD), and with a broken finger to boot. Dez.. 138 targets, 92 catches (67%), 1382 yards, 10.0 avg, 12 TD (8.7%), 54 FD (43%). *3 1/4 games with broken finger* A.J... 164 targets, 97 catches (59%), 1350 yards, 8.23 avg, 11 TD (6.7%), 61 FD (40%). Julio. 129 targets, 79 catches (61%), 1198 yards, 9.29 avg, 10 TD (7.8%), 56 FD (47%).
Jennings doesn't need to be a #1 to be better than Hartline, he is superior in virtually every aspect of a receiver's game. I can't believe we're even having this discussion because it's not even close.
I will grant you that RTs rawness did not help BHs case any last year. That however does not change the fact that he was never able to do much with the ball after catching it. Most of the yards he got in his stats were in the air. Hartline, who is by no means a bad receiver, did nothing to make me believe he should be ranked any higher than 50-60.
....and when I'm obviously sporting my homer hat you can rightfully suggest me to remove it as well. Homer is a proper term in this case b/c some of you are talking so absolutely about Hartline being a top 40 receiver as if a big chunk of other talented receivers have no grounds to make a case about being just as if not more deserving themselves. With 32 teams, top 30 means Hartine should be a #1 starter, and we all know that ain't true. Pushing him further down is the fact numerous teams possess 2 upper level receivers, and a few even have 3. Furthermore, it's just a matter of time before a handful of the league's young talent & high draft picks get enough seasoning under their belts and surpass Hartline. I'm a Dolphins fan and a Hartline fan when he's not serving as the main guy, so I hate having to continue making arguments against him like this, but I can't sit around a forum I actively participate in and watch fans call him a top 30 receiver when 93.3% of his games average 2.8 catches, 41 yards, and 0.09 TD. Mario Manningham, who wasn't in the top 40 either, has only 15 less yards than Hartline the past 4 years, the same avg per attempt (8.42% vs 8.49%), 2% less first downs (39% vs 41%), but a whopping 13 more TDs, and he didn't have a random 253 yard game padding his 2010 best-season stats when he caught 944 yards, 10.3 avg, and 9 TD, with only 4 games at 50 or less yards, 1 under 20, and 5 at 85+.... compared to 2012 Hartline's 8 games at 50 or less, 3 at 20 or less, and only 3 at 85+. Take away Manningham's best 4 game stretch since 2009 and he's still at a respectable 3.62 catches, 48 yards, and 0.3 TD per game. That's nearly a catch more per game than Hartline, 7 more yards, and 333% more TDs. Just sayin, why does Hartline deserve top 40 more than Manningham? Hartline needs to up his consistency to breach the top 40.... and then up his touchdowns significantly to sniff the top 30. How have I dedicated this offseason to being a homer? Please elaborate as I'm not sure I understand that one.
Jennings was at one point arguably a top 10 receiver who is only 29, not an over the hill 35. Man ranked 56th on NFLN's 2012 Top 100 after notching a 5 year average of 1108 yards, 9 TDs, 9.8 y/a, and 47 FD (45%) despite having to compete with a bevy of talented receivers for targets. Hartline hasn't had 1 year like that, even with no one to compete with, and is still 2 career TDs shy of what Jennings averages in 1 year. I don't think the Packers would prefer Hartline starting ahead of a healthy Jennings, nor the Vikings for that matter who are paying him 50% more than Hartline earns after having grown quite intimate with his prowess considering they've seen him up close and personal 15 times the past 7 years.
