How the Dolphins won the offseason

You forgot about the part where you told him his post had no common sense.

 

I disagree. I think the process was important last season. This season there needs to be tangible results. We should have been 9-7 last year, were it not for blown kicks. (I do not view kicker mistakes as signs indicative of the team overall). If we ended up 9-7 this year, after all the moves we made, I'd find that unacceptable because we were that good last year. (This is all barring major injuries, of course.)

 

I would suggest everyone stop attacking other posters before this thread is locked. You guys are lucky I'm on my phone right now.

 

Anyone old or new who pins past transgressions from a prior regime onto the new one, at that point has lost the ability to use their common sense and is letting their emotion talk for them imo.

 

If it is 9-7 this season, what then?

 

I am honestly stunned by your reaction GMJohnson. I didn't think anything I said was all that controversial. How you could be even remotely so exasperated by statements that while clearly offensive to you are indeed based in fact is amazing.

My post was not to infuriate anyone. It was to have a conversation. If you don't like topic, then you are certainly welcome to click onwards. The fact that you would feel the need to respond with such hostility says more about you than it does about me. Someone who responds to something as inconsequetial as I posted in the manner you did can't be someone who is happy, right?

Yes Jake's played five yrs. My bad. Again since I didn't think what I was saying was all that hostile I wasn't too concerned about that. Total WIN for the FINS. Number one pick in draft doesn't stay with team past his rookie contract. How many of those top ten picks the Fins have had the past few years have proven to be long term successes?

Take a look at the Ravens, you know the team that wins those big games that everyone watches once a year, you know the game we are never in... See how many First and Second round picks they have hit on from their drafts. See how many are not only the roster but how many start or play big minutes. Then you go ahead and hit me again with your laundry list of excuses about Long, Smith, Odrick, VD, and Misi.

You have an excuse for every "failed" signing and draft pick I listed. As they say, excuses are like A** Holes. Your vitriolic response proves to me that you clearly provide this site with both the excuses and the A** Hole.

 

Then i think if there's a better GM candidate out there and he's willing to keep Philbin, you go get him. If there's not, then I'd put Ireland on a very short leash. Any record lower than 9-7 and I'd fire Ireland outright.

 

I'd hope the first move would be figuring out why they went 9-7.

 

If 8-8 gets us into the playoffs and 9-7 does not, I'd still take 8-8.

Bears went 10-6, missed the playoffs and Lovie Smith was fired, to me that is a good standard.

I'm still surprised Smith was not hired this offseason, he's a fine coach whose time ran out in Chicago, D got old, GM was far to short sighted and drafted poorly.

 

I honestly don't feel that I'm deflecting blame because the drafts during the first three years sucked, I feel that he was making big money decision for a franchise in the doldrums, it was his neck on the line.

 

I see alot of value in what you are saying. NO doubt. I wouldn't fight a movement to replace GM next season if this season isn't an improvement. I may not agreee but I would see your side.

Here is my rationale on the other side though. ...

Last year the Fins played a pretty easy schedule. I think (don't kill me if I am off by one or something) that only two of the team's wins were against Playoff Teams. So the win total was predominantly accomplished by beating bad teams.

Did we lose by three to Az and NYJ... yes. Does that mean we should have been a ten win team... maybe. But those teams suck. And being a missed kick away form two more crappy wins doesn't mean that this team was any better at 10 and 6 than they were at 8 and 8.

My point is the record in the NFL can at times give bad teams hope and at other times can make good teams look like they're not quite so good.

As DJ is so quick to say, we have no idea who ireland has been responsible but for the past couple of years. If his picks of L Miller and O Vernon show explosiveness we can trust. IF reshad jones continues to blossom into a top safety. If Martin solidifies the Left Tackle spot. If dion jordan shows he was worth the third pick in the draft.. but the team goes 9 and 7 and misses the playoffs should we fire Ireland?

Wouldn't he then be proving that when left to his own devices he can indeed pick talented young players and build something? I just think we have made so many Gm changes which lead to so many coaching changes which lead to so many philosophy changes which ultimately lead to personnel changes... I don't want to start the whole cycle again unless I am certain Ireland isn't enough.

 

You're still not getting it. This thread is about whether the Miami Dolphins won the off season or not. Not Jeff Ireland. The Miami Dolphins. Rances came in here and posted his reasons why he finds it difficult to say that the Miami Dolphins won this off season, mainly because it has the look of treading more water and trying to scramble to sign people to replace other guys.

You keep going on about this timeline stuff about Jeff Ireland. It's irrelavent. Jeff Ireland wasn't the subject. You're sitting here and straight up accusing Rances of acting "scorned" and saying his post lacked common sense because for you everything is about Jeff Ireland. We could be talking about whether Zach Thomas is a hall of famer and somehow you're going to attack a poster who praises Zach on the basis of his clearly having bias against Jeff Ireland since Ireland cut Zach in 2008. This is what I don't get. It's what you don't get.

If you believe Rances is a gentleman and intelligent, then respect him. When you come at a guy who is new here with accusations of bias, being "scorned" and lacking "common sense" because his post about the Miami Dolphins lacked the proper respect showed toward Jeff Ireland, then you're not respecting a new member. In fact you're helping create a situation in which he clearly stated the argument has made him regret signing up on this board, which is a travesty.

 

Exactly. Way to welcome a new member.

 

FTR, I said we should have been a 9 win team last year, not a 10 win team.

Strength of schedule is overrated and means nothing to me. There were a number of years in a row that we sucked but beat the eventual SB winner during the season. Our 72 undefeated season was against an easy schedule. It really doesn't matter. Showing progress that isn't quantifiable is unquestionably important and that was what I looked for last year. This year is different.

Our coach and QB are here and ready. I believe very strongly in the both of them. You need 3 things to be a consistently strong team, an excellent QB, an excellent coach and competent surrounding talent. I feel like we have the first two. Hell, I feel like we have all 3 this year, but if I'm wrong and we falter, I believe it will be because of the surrounding talent and not because of Philbin or Tannehill....that leaves surrounding talent which is Ireland's wheelhouse. (Barring injuries)

I look at what this team did last year and see the changes we've made and cannot believe we won't be at least a 10 win team this year. We should have 5 wins in our division alone.

 

This is a bizarre line you've decided to draw in the sand. The offseason is the time of the GM. A team cannot have a good offseason and the GM have a bad one or vice versa. If the Dolphins won the offseason then it was because of the moves Ireland orchestrated as GM. They aren't separate in this case.

 

I'm very sensitive to new posters and welcoming them and making them feel comfortable..I feel the title 'winning the offseason' has everything to do with the GM, he is in charge of aquiring payers and that's exactly what were talking about, the draft and free agency..

I felt he was a smart guy, so I wanted him to know that if your gonna bring something to the table to temper an optimistic thread then you cannot put stuff that didnt happen, or that it cannot be proved, or what common sense could tell us, on this GMs watch, without a bit of a rebuttal.

Once again, how does this thread not have everything to do with the GM position.?

 

You have a funny way of showing it. Guy comes in here with an honest, thoughful opinion, with no anger, no sarcastic remarks, no direct attacks on the GM or anyone. He's met with a furor of accusations of acting like someone "scorned", accusations that his post lacks "common sense" and the implication that his points should be disregarded because you believe he must be biased.

Way to welcome a new poster. Classy.

As for the difference between discussing whether the Miami Dolphins won the off season or whether the General Manager won the off season, the difference is pretty obvious. For the team to "win" the off season it implies that they were able to make some moves that make the franchise significantly better than it has been. A GM can win for himself in the off season simply by doing well with whatever he had to work with. Few would argue that the Raiders have really made heavy strides between last off season and this off season in terms of becoming a good team, but few also would argue that Reggie McKenzie isn't doing the best he can with what he inherited.

And by talking about the franchise, yeah it opens up the discussion about the past to beyond just whoever happens to be in charge right now. Joe Philbin's only been here one year. Does that make any discussion about the Dolphins' off season relative to the DOLPHINS' past irrelevant if we bring up anything that happened pre-Philbin? Hell no.

Or a more appropriate comparison would be, if someone made a thread asking "Did the Dolphins have a great 2012 season?" and someone says well not really, the team was 7-9 and and that's not very different from what it's been in the recent past, and it certainly doesn't compare well with how the team performed in the 70's, 80's, 90's and early 2000's...do you come on attacking that poster for acting "scorned" and lacking any common sense because Joe Philbin = Miami Dolphins and any discussion about whether the Dolphins did well in 2012 must be about whether Joe Philbin did well?

That's essentially what you've done and it not only doesn't make any sense but it disrespected a new poster and contributed (along with GMJohnson's disrespectful posts) ot his feeling regret about signing up here.

So again I say, stay classy San Diego.

 

I will try to be more case sensitive, I thought welcoming him, acknowledging his intelligence and debating his train of thought was fine..

Your saying that when I said he sounded scorned i was wrong?, really I would never said that if he didnt write about the Ronnie brown failure, maybe the word was too harsh.

 

Don't make Stringer Bell hang up the phone. You won't like him when he hangs up the phone.

 

We win games and hit Wildcard with 2nd yr QB and Youngest team in the NFL then i'm sure the haters will go into hibernation and the supporters will be rejoicing. Personally i couldnt give a rats a** what gone on in the past IF this season brings us better play and wins. I know we have been set up this offseason to expect a better team and to compete and win. For that im actually looking forward to seeing what this team can do. There are no ignorant statements right now regarding Mr Ireland. What happens this season will define Ireland. I said this before FA and Draft. Nothing has changed.
Welcome Rances. I wouldnt take anything too personal bud. Give your opinion. It's called a forum! Debate is what its about. I started a post about Heath Evans. It got over 600 posts. I just sat back and watched the carnage! :-)

 

You said he sounded "scorned" and suggested that his post lacked common sense and there was certainly an implication that people should disregard his points because he comes in with bias.

Even if there IS evidence of bias, the idea that a poster's points should be disregarded wholesale because of it is disrespectful. It precludes the possibility that the person is laying out a good argument, and it suggests that the guy is incapable of making a good point because of it. The accusation happens and I think it happens for good reason at times but you have to be very careful with it, because it's an inherently disrespectful thing to do by its very nature.

Does it happen? Sure. Should we probably try and avoid this sort of thing with some new guy who is just trying to get the feel for a board and comes on here saying very rational, well thought out things? Yeah. We probably should.

I mean case in point of when it does happen anyway, Todd and I have a running argument in the draft forum going about Sammy Watkins getting arrested for marijuana and prescription pills (without a prescription) he had on his possession. We all know Todd is a big, big, big Clemson fan. That's ok. I never disregard what he says about Clemson players, in fact I listen up specifically because of his history with the program. But he said that Watkins' arrest "won't concern teams in the least"...and that's just really, really, really hard to fathom for me. There's just no way. Maybe it won't end up a significant impact but saying "won't concern teams in the least" just seems way too far, and inaccurate. So I threw out a suggestion that perhaps Todd is allowing his Clemson loyalty to shine through a little. This is inherently disrespectful, but it wasn't done lightly. I didn't put it in sarcastic or derogatory language, didn't couch it in terms that suggest Todd simply can't help himself. It's not something I would say to someone unless I had a strong enough history with them, and/or that what they said was ridiculous enough, to where I know there's a very strong chance that it's true. I hoped Todd and I had enough rapport that he wouldn't be too offended by it and so far it looks like he's not. But if I didn't know Todd at all then I'm sure he would take offense and he'd probably be justified. I still took his point to heart which was just a suggestion that everything Watkins has done outside of that arrest has been positive.

You just have to be a little more careful with new guys. When a guy comes on here spitting out a bunch of crap (we've all seen it), that's one thing. When a guy comes on here new and actually lays out a valid argument with thoughtful points, starting to accuse him of bias (based on pretty much nothing) and saying he lacks common sense and suggesting these things mean we should disregard what he's saying is no way to roll out the welcome wagon. #Tact. #Manners.

 

I wrote what I wrote because I was basically saying I recognize your intelligence and I welcome it, ( which I did) but your better than this first post..I wanted to challenge him in a good way, not scare away..

 

Nope, didn't take offense to it. You had a legitimate concern, one that shouldn't be easily quenched just b/c I'm a Clemson supporter. After knowing each other for a few years and having a lot of great debates I'd hate to have either of us feel like we had to walk on eggshells around each other, especially when we both know it's a part of the other's personality & nature to be forthright and slightly crass at times minus any intention of actually being offensive. I've come to realize life in this forum is easier when I accept each poster for who they are and their own individual personality type. For instance, if a poster is a malcontent then I accept them for being such and understand it's simply in their nature to be so, in turn lowering my frustration level with some of their posts. Anywho.

 

Hey Padre, I don't want to misrepresent you here... but I think I have this right. If the Bears had gone 8 and 8 but made the playoffs in a terrible conference.. you'd say he shld be retained. But if they go 10 and 6 and miss the playoffs because the Conference is just tremendous.. he should be fired?

Even though he got his team to perform at a higher level all season during the 10 win non playoff scenario, you'd prefer to keep the coach of the team that wasn't as good at his job and went .500 just because his team was rewarded with a postseason slot?

That makes no sense to me. Not to mention that after you stated you though Lovie was a good coach and he deserved a job, you went on to state all the reasons you felt he was essentially undermined in Chicago.

Old defense, Poor Drafts, Short sighted Gm... You give those reasons for his lack of success and yet you agree with their firing him.

That's my point on the record being the be all end all in the evaluation of the Dolphins. Hell, we recently went 11 and 5 and won the division.. That record was indicative of nothing in terms of the team progressing. I'd rather our team have another 8-8 or preferrably a 9-7 non playoff season to a mirage 11-5.


If this team is doing well and improving I don't want to punish someone who may be responsible for that solid improvement just because we are weary of missing playoffs around here. Making Ireland's (or anyone else) employment based on something as strict as playoffs or no playoffs is a bit Short sighted. But I certainly may be wrong. Again, i am just weary of the constant turnover we have had around this program for so long.

I definitely see your side though. i do.

 

FTR, i never said that you said they should have been a X number win team. I was making my own hypothetical there based on my argument. If you felt I misrepresented you then i apologize. that was not intended to be something you were stipulating.

I agree with you actually on Strength of Schedule before a season. But I disagree that a season in review in terms of the relevance that quality of opponents doesn't matter. Can a crap team have high Water marks during a season as you referenced?? Yes. Does that mean anything .. NO. Heck we beat Seattle last year. But one quality win does not a season make. You are what you do consistently. If you constantly lose to the superior talent over a sufficient sample size then you are clearly not on par with the upper echelon teams. That would seem to me to be a safe suppposition.

Record alone however in a one year sample isn't enough to deem a team a good team or a team on the brink etc... Take the 11-5 season. I know you don't want to give credence to strength of schedule but look at that season closely. That fins team played Crap quarterback after Crap quarterback. For that reason, along with many others that team essentially fluked it's way to an 11-5 season. In the seasons immediately thereafter we saw that the dolphins weren't anywhere near able to sustain that kind of performance.

I know we all want to believe in Tannehill and Philbin. But bottom line... we have one year of so so performance. That's not enough for me to put undue pressure on them particularly when this offseason of activity, while bringing in lots of talent, was also an offseason of turnover and not solely additions. I think this season can be a great one, but if it's not immediately what i am hoping for I am not willing to overreact.

Playoffs or bust isn't quite my standard this year. Next year, they'd better be a playoff contender. This year, I think this year two of QB/coach tandem. Last year was learn, this year can be cement, next year can be take off. That's my opinion....

 

I don't understand the position that some are taking in this playoffs or bust mentality, if we are saying, lets say for example, the group that believes Ireland should just be judged from when Parcells departed, well then, this is his third year, with his coach that he hired in his 2nd, and the Qb that he drafted in his 2nd year, and since assuming the 100 percent of his duties has now compiled the youngest team in the league under good cap conditions.

 

Great post, Chief. Clearly the talent is there, but it takes talent, cohesion, good health and good luck for a team to reach it's potential in the NFL. It's never as simple as "playoffs or bust". Especially for a team that has seen the post season once in over a decade.

 

Then again, better to set a goal then to not have one, that is "everyone get's a trophy" thinking that is totally not the NFL at it's best.